Turkey’s Defense Industry Has Come A Long Way, But Ankara Still Relies Heavily On Foreign Suppliers

[xbat]

Only 4 pieces? I post these articles to complete the whole picture. When I say "deeply dependent" I'm not referring only to this article!

Look at the opening article of this thread, there you can see how deeply dependent Turkey is on foreign technology supply!

article says
-Wescam civilian camera - have national equivelent CATS
-Bombardier civilian aircraft - we can overcome that issue, without bombardier we can modify the aircraft too
-Helicopter catching system ASIST - in development locally
-p&w turboprop engine - we have an engine in this class, just need to convert it into turboprop

i count 4 and they are not very deep, how many did you count?

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Jul 25, 2020,09:48am EDT

Turkey’s Defense Industry Has Come A Long Way, But Ankara Still Relies Heavily On Foreign Suppliers

Paul IddonContributor
Aerospace & Defense

In recent years, Turkey’s defense industry has proven itself capable of designing and manufacturing a variety of increasingly sophisticated weapon systems. Turkish officials boast that these capabilities are bringing an end to the country’s reliance on foreign sources and suppliers for its military hardware.

In reality, Turkey is still heavily reliant on foreign sources for a great deal of its military hardware and technology and will remain so for quite some time.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared that Turkey plans to eliminate all dependency on foreign suppliers for its defense industry by 2023, the centennial of the foundation of the Turkish republic.

Turkey is not going to be able to end such dependencies by 2023 or even by the end of this decade. This is because the country still requires a highly substantive amount of foreign expertise, hardware and technology for the majority of its military projects.

Take Turkey’s MILGEM national warship project, which is supplying the Turkish Navy with new multipurpose frigates as well as corvettes that each specialize in different roles such as anti-air and anti-submarine warfare. The project is impressive and ambitious and has increased the Turkish Navy’s size and strength.

However, this national warship project is far from being a wholly indigenous one since only 60 percent of its production is local. Also, the upcoming TCG Anadolu, the amphibious assault ship (LHD) that will become the Turkish Navy’s flagship, has the same design as Spain’s Juan Carlos I but will be fitted with Turkish-built systems.

Turkey’s T129 ATAK attack helicopter conspicuously resembles the AgustaWestland A129 because it is, of course, based on that established airframe but outfitted with Turkish-made avionics and weapons.

Nevertheless, its reliance on foreign hardware for building the ATAK was brought home to Turkey when it tried to arrange a deal to sell Pakistan a fleet of 30 T129s for $1.5 billion only to be reminded it needed U.S. export licenses to do so since the helicopter contains U.S.-built engine parts.

Turkey’s upcoming Altay main battle tank, which it hopes to build large numbers of to replace its older fleet of Leopard II and M60 Patton tanks as well as sell to other countries, is heavily based on the South Korean K2 Black Panther. Turkey’s T-155 Fırtına artillery guns are also based on the South Korean K-9 Thunder system built under license with Turkish components and modifications.

The majority of the Turkish defense industry’s projects are very heavily based on existing foreign designs with local modifications, which most certainly doesn’t make them indigenous systems but rather license-built Turkish variants of foreign systems. Turkey has built F-16s under license for years but never acted as if it conceived, designed, and then built those fighter jets from scratch.

"It is not easy to assess precisely the extent to which Turkey's defense industry is meeting the national military needs," said defense analyst Yvonni-Stefania Efstathiou. "Yet what Turkey usually calls indigenous systems are, in reality, license-produced or based on imported sub-components."

Turkey got suspended from the fifth-generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program by the United States after it controversially bought sophisticated S-400 air defense missiles from Russia and began taking delivery of them last year.

That suspension may well have ended any possibility that Ankara can possess a fifth-generation fighter jet for at least another decade. Erdogan has claimed that Turkey can complete its own TAI TF-X project or buy Russian Su-57s in the near future but neither of these options are as feasible as he suggests.

Turkey faces many obstacles to making the TF-X a successful fifth-generation fighter jet, arguably the main one being designing and building a proper engine for it.

In 2018, Turkey announced its decision to power the TF-X’s prototype with standard General Electric F110 engines as “a stopgap solution” until it builds a much more advanced engine that will adequately meet the various requirements of a fifth-generation jet.

A fifth-generation engine is absolutely essential for the development of an effective and stealthy fifth-generation jet. It’s also an extremely difficult thing to design and build. Russia has so far failed to build effective Izdeliye 30 engines for its Su-57, which is still little more than a prototype, despite over a decade of trying.

In 2017, Turkey and Britain signed a deal valued at roughly $130 million to develop the TF-X. However, Rolls-Royce dialed back its bid to work with Turkish defense firms to design and build the jet’s engine in 2019 over fears its intellectual property would be shared by Ankara with a third party.

Turkey expressed its willingness to renegotiate the terms of cooperation with Rolls-Royce in late 2019, probably out of recognition it will need all the help it can get to build a proper engine for the TF-X.

However, even a successful partnership with Rolls-Royce wouldn’t necessarily guarantee the design and manufacture of a fifth-generation engine for Turkey’s TF-X for many more years to come.

The only experience Rolls-Royce has to date in building a fifth-generation jet fighter engine was in a joint project with General Electric to develop the F136 turbofan engine for the F-35. However, that project was discontinued nearly a decade ago.

Even if Rolls-Royce could successfully help Turkey build a suitable engine for the TF-X, one military aviation expert expressed his doubts that the British defense contractor would provide Ankara with any “large-scale technology transfer of high-end military turbofan manufacturing techniques to develop domestic production capacity.”

In other words, Turkey still wouldn’t be able to build these engines for its first indigenous fighter jet without substantial foreign assistance and know-how.

In light of these examples, talk of Turkey ending its dependency on foreign sources and suppliers for its military projects is highly premature and will most likely remain so for the foreseeable future.

Turkey’s Defense Industry Has Come A Long Way, But Ankara Still Relies Heavily On Foreign Suppliers

Turkey is not going to be able to end such dependencies by 2023, as President Erdogan has vowed, or even by the end of this decade.

www.forbes.com

Defence industry only exists in Glorious People's Republic of China. Rest is all Western propaganda

 

[Homajon]

i count 4 and they are not very deep, how many did you count?

I post these articles to complete the whole picture. When I say "deeply dependent" I'm not referring only to this article!

Look at the opening article of this thread, there you can see how deeply dependent Turkey is on foreign technology supply!

Defence industry only exists in Glorious People's Republic of China. Rest is all Western propaganda

And Turkey is selling its Muslim Uighur Turkic blood brothers to the glorious People's Republic of China, and that is not Western propaganda!

 

[xbat]

Erdo is not a turk he is georgian when he left picture will be reverse

 

[Homajon]

Turkey claims it no longer needs Canadian military drone tech

Military experts say they're skeptical of Turkish claims related to domestic drone technology

Levon Sevunts - Radio Canada International

Posted: April 21, 2021

Stung by the federal government's decision to ban the export of state-of-the-art Canadian drone optics and targeting systems to Turkey, the country's largest drone producer says Turkish arms manufacturers have developed their own technology and no longer need the Canadian devices.

Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau announced last week that Ottawa had cancelled arms export licences for Turkey's Bayraktar TB2 drone systems after a review found "credible evidence" that Canadian technology was diverted to Azerbaijan without Ottawa's consent and was used in fighting against Armenian forces in Nagorno-Karabakh last fall.

In an angry tweet issued soon after Garneau's announcement, Selçuk Bayraktar, a top executive with Turkish drone producer Baykar, said Canada's cancellation of export permits for optical sensors and targeting systems produced by L3 Harris WESCAM in Burlington, Ont. will not harm Turkey's burgeoning drone industry, according to a report by the Anadolu Agency.

Bayraktar — who is Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's son-in-law — also warned "that if Turkey decides not to sell Canada armed unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) during an emergency, this may cause it serious problems as Turkey is one of only four countries in the world that make battle-tested drones," Anadolu Agency reported.

These WESCAM pods for their drones are really, really important. Otherwise, they wouldn't be calling.- Defence expert Chris Kilford on Turkey's drone production

Baykar did not respond to Radio Canada International's request for an interview with Bayraktar.

Canadian defence experts say they doubt that Turkey's domestically produced optical sensors are as good as WESCAM's and argue that Ankara's repeated attempts to reverse the ban at the highest political levels — which included a personal overture by Erdogan to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau last spring — strongly suggest the reverse.

Chris Kilford, a defence and security expert and a former Canadian defence attaché in Turkey, said there's no question the Canadian ban has upset Ankara.

"What we've seen since all of this has happened is that you had President Erdogan call the prime minister at one point, you had the Turkish foreign minister call our foreign minister, and the defence minister in Turkey call our defence minister," Kilford said.

"And what does it really tell you? It tells you that these WESCAM pods for their drones are really, really important. Otherwise, they wouldn't be calling."

Kilford said the optical sensor and targeting system pod developed by Turkish arms manufacturer ASELSAN is reportedly about 20 kilograms heavier than WESCAM's MX-15 pod installed on the Bayraktar TB2s.

And unlike the WESCAM sensors, Kilford said, ASELSAN's product hasn't been battle-tested in Libya, Syria and Nagorno-Karabakh — where the Turkish drones proved to be so effective that Selçuk Bayraktar was recently awarded the Karabakh Order by Azerbaijan's President Ilham Aliyev for the role his drones played in defeating Armenian forces.

"A rule I often apply to Turkish headlines or statements is that when they say 'no damage,' it is the exact opposite," Kilford said.

"Indeed, the WESCAM pods are arguably the best available and proven in three recent combat situations in different terrains and conditions. Whatever is on hand to replace the WESCAM pods will likely not be as good, as foreign customers will also note."

Turkey broke the rules: defence expert

Christian Leuprecht, a professor at Queen's University who specializes in defence and security issues, said that while Turkey has been working hard for decades to expand its own domestic defence capability, about 70 per cent of its arms industry is still "essentially building other people's stuff under licence."

"And keep in mind that other countries, such as France, have either frozen or suspended permits," Leuprecht said.

That means Turkey has cut itself off from supplies produced by several key allies, he added.

"And that's the crux of the issue — Turkey violated its end-use assurances," Leuprecht said.

For the multilateral export control system to work, he said, the repercussions for Turkey must themselves be multilateral – both to rein in Turkey and to send a clear message that the conditions on export control permits must be obeyed.

"In Turkey's case, we already see the next confrontation with Western military gear brewing — its naval adventures protecting its hydrocarbon seabed claims against Greece and Cyprus," Leuprecht said, referring to tensions between Greece and Turkey in the Eastern Mediterranean.

Given the history between Turkey and Greece, that confrontation "could easily go sideways," Leuprecht added.

"And once again Canadian technology is at stake. So this really has to be a conversation about looking forward, rather than just looking back."

Turkey points to Canada's arms sales to Saudi Arabia

Turkey in turn has accused Canada of maintaining a double standard, pointing to its continued arms shipments to Saudi Arabia despite that country's leading role in the Yemen conflict and its poor human rights record.

Turkey has been a significant customer for Canada's defence industry.

According to documents released by the federal government to the parliamentary committee looking into the arms export permits issue, Canada has exported over $446 million in high-tech equipment to Turkey's burgeoning domestic arms industry since 2014.

Bessma Momani, a University of Waterloo professor and a senior fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation, said the issue of arms exports warrants a serious public debate in Canada.

Momani said the defence industry makes a big contribution to the Canadian economy. According to the federal government, the industry contributed over $7 billion in GDP and close to 64,000 jobs to the Canadian economy in 2018.

"It's quite significant and if you look at jobs, it's manufacturing jobs and they have a lot of potential high value added in terms of jobs of the future. It's where you want technology investment to go in terms of AI (artificial intelligence), in terms of quantum [computing]," Momani said.

"If we were to stand on high moral ground and say we shouldn't be exporting any of this stuff, that's fine. But somebody else will."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/turkey-drone-armenian-nagorno-karabakh-1.5996570

Deeply, deeply dependent Turkey!!!

 

[Homajon]

Turkey to export T129 helos to Philippines despite block on Pakistani order

A Turkish company has won U.S. export licenses to sell a batch of helicopters to the Philippines. But only a month earlier, Turkey’s persistent requests for the same export license to sell the same helicopters to Pakistan were going nowhere.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Homajon]

German Submarine Sale to Turkey Rankles Greece - GreekReporter.com

Greece's Foreign Minister Dendias deplored Germany’s decision to sell submarines to Turkey, publicly and in a meeting with German officials.

greekreporter.com

 

[Smarana Mitra]

I think the article is a little pessimistic.

While it is true that by 2030, Turkey will still need to import engines it should be able to design and build everything else itself.

Nope. urkey does not even have basic semiconductor programme to make even ancient 1000nm chipsets. Turkey has just 1 semiconductor manufacturing machine that was gifted by USA having 700nm techology. Even that requires spare parts from USA for maintenance. Without having even basic semicnoductors, Turkey will take at least 25-30 years to develop advanced semiconductor of acceptable standards (2000 pentium3 standard). Without it any electrinics like radar mission computer, avionics, ballistic missile, satellite launch, mission computers etc will always have to be imported. Engine is not the only thing.

İsraeli Weapons relies heavily on foreign suppliers too ... so what ?



Turkiye has just started developing its own weapons after 2004 and Nobody can create 100% defense İndustry in 15 years .............. so Turkiye needs more 10 years

What about indigenous Systems to replace foreign Systems ?


-- Aselsan CATS E/O System to replace Canadian Wescam WX-15 for UCAVS
-- TEI PD-170 turboprob Engine for ANKA-S and AKSUNGUR UCAVs
-- TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Engine for T-629 Attack Helicopter and T-625 utility Helicopter
-- KTJ-3200 turbojet engine for SOM and ATMACA Cruise Missiles

also Turkiye develops diesel engines for Military Vehicles , ALTAY Tank and T-155 Howitzer ( 600 hp , 1000 hp and 1500 hp )
in 2018 TR-MOTOR has started developing indigenous turbofan engine for the TFX Fighter Jet project
also Turkiye develops engines for Naval projects up to 5.000 hp


also TAI TF-X stealth Fighter project is a giant industrial revolution project
No need to mention AA Missiles, Cruise Missile ,,Laser guided and Smart Bombs ,,E/O systems, Mission computer/avionics/engine development/AESA radar projects following the paths of same project


and Milgem class Corvette , Istanbul class Frigate , TF-2000 class Destroyer , Milden Submarine , Bayraktar class LST projects are industrial revolution projects of Turkish naval industry

-- CAFRAD Long range naval AESA Radar
-- EW systems
-- ATMACA anti-ship missile
-- GOKDENIZ 35mm CIWS
-- 76 mm naval Gun
-- Hypersonic Railguns
-- HİSAR and SİPER medium/long altitude SAM projects
-- GEZGİN land attack cruise missile
-- ORKA and AKYA Torpedos
-- ZARGANA Submarine Torpedo Counter Measure System
-- TORK Hard-Kill Torpedo Countermeasure System

..etc Rare states have capability of developing such big and complex naval projects .. and Turkiye is one of them


so Turkish Defense İndustry has bright FUTURE

Turkiye has developed its own E/O System for UCAVs .......... Problem is solved






For now , Turkiye lack of Engines .... Turkiye has only Engine problem
but in 10 years all kinds of Engines will be developed including turbofan Engine for the TFX Fighter Jet program

Making an engine is not easy. It requires decades of software/FADEC development to work under modern conditions. In addition, it requires semiconctor as I mentioned above. In addition, Turkey will not be able to have SAM, mission computrs, radars etc on their own

 

[xbat]

we communicate each other with smoke and sometimes with mirror in Turkey, what is semiconducter mean?

 

[MMM-E]

Making an engine is not easy. It requires decades of software/FADEC development to work under modern conditions. In addition, it requires semiconctor as I mentioned above. In addition, Turkey will not be able to have SAM, mission computrs, radars etc on their own

Now Turkish mission computers are on F-16s , T-129s

Turkish SAMs HISAR-A and HISAR-O enter service , SIPER high altitude Air Defence by 2023

Turkish 600km EIRS early warning AESA Radar enter service soon
Airborne AESA Radar for F-16 modernization by 2022-2023
450km CAFRAD AESA Radar for TF-2000 class Destroyer project


Turkey develops Engines for Fighter Jets , Helicopters , UCAVs , Cruise Missiles , Tanks , Howitzers , etc

Nope. urkey does not even have basic semiconductor programme to make even ancient 1000nm chipsets. Turkey has just 1 semiconductor manufacturing machine that was gifted by USA having 700nm techology. Even that requires spare parts from USA for maintenance. Without having even basic semicnoductors, Turkey will take at least 25-30 years to develop advanced semiconductor of acceptable standards (2000 pentium3 standard). Without it any electrinics like radar mission computer, avionics, ballistic missile, satellite launch, mission computers etc will always have to be imported. Engine is not the only thing.

your info is not true


even Turkey to emerge from auto chip crisis through local production

Semiconductor Technologies Research Laboratory (YITAL) in the Gebze district of the northwestern industrial province of Kocaeli-TURKEY

Turkey is among the few countries that design and produce all components of information security, from the algorithm to the chip

We have the ability to adapt the production of microchips for the defense industry to other sectors, including the automotive industry

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Now Turkish mission computers are on F-16s , T-129s

Turkish SAMs HISAR-A and HISAR-O enter service , SIPER high altitude Air Defence by 2023

Turkish 600km EIRS early warning AESA Radar enter service soon
Airborne AESA Radar for F-16 modernization by 2022-2023
450km CAFRAD AESA Radar for TF-2000 class Destroyer project


Turkey develops Engines for Fighter Jets , Helicopters , UCAVs , Cruise Missiles , Tanks , Howitzers , etc








your info is not true


even Turkey to emerge from auto chip crisis through local production

Semiconductor Technologies Research Laboratory (YITAL) in the Gebze district of the northwestern industrial province of Kocaeli-TURKEY

Turkey is among the few countries that design and produce all components of information security, from the algorithm to the chip

We have the ability to adapt the production of microchips for the defense industry to other sectors, including the automotive industry

View attachment 754491

Turkey assembles the mission computers of F16. The AESA radars also have significant foreign supplies for its mission computers. Turkey makes naval radar currently, which for example, uses foreign mission computers and only the basic mechanical parts like antennaes and receivers is Turkey made.

Turkey can design chipsets including algorithms but can't make them. Designing chipset is different from manufacturing as design is just paperwork whereas producing transistors at nanometer level needs state of the art precision and equipments. Even India and China make design of 14/10nm chips but India can make only 65nm while China can make only 22nm.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Turkey assembles the mission computers of F16. The AESA radars also have significant foreign supplies for its mission computers. Turkey makes naval radar currently, which for example, uses foreign mission computers and only the basic mechanical parts like antennaes and receivers is Turkey made.

Turkey can design chipsets including algorithms but can't make them. Designing chipset is different from manufacturing as design is just paperwork whereas producing transistors at nanometer level needs state of the art precision and equipments. Even India and China make design of 14/10nm chips but India can make only 65nm while China can make only 22nm.

Silence!! Turkey will become a superpower and you will all be our slaves.

 

[MMM-E]

Turkey assembles the mission computers of F16. The AESA radars also have significant foreign supplies for its mission computers. Turkey makes naval radar currently, which for example, uses foreign mission computers and only the basic mechanical parts like antennaes and receivers is Turkey made.

Mission computer is Turkish
Long range IFF System is Turkish
Targeting Pod is Turkish
Electronic Warfare Pod is Turkish

and even Turkish ASELSAN to provide transmitter/receiver modules for French Thales Radars

represent state of the art radar technology and require highly specialized manufacturing infrastructure

Aselsan to provide transmitter/receiver modules for Thales radar

Thales has chosen to procure radar transmitter/receiver modules from Aselsan.

www.microwavejournal.com

There is no company in India and İran which is similar to Turkish ASELSAN


ASELSAN MKB-331 mission computer which manages avionics, supports pilot with its advance processing capability, and provides relevant data to the pilot collected from aircraft systems

ASELSAN AGB-231 Avionics Mission Computer

ASELSAN Advanced Modular Computer

ASELSAN UKB-501 Flight Control Computer

ASELSAN Avionic Central Control Computer

ASELSAN FCC-442 Flight Control Computer

 

[MMM-E]

Turkish ASELSAN design and production activities consist of high performance transmitter and transmitter/receiver modules, front-end modules, frequency converters, power amplifier modules, digital frequency discriminators (DFD), logarithmic video amplifiers (DLVA), filters, monolithic microwave integrated circuits (MMIC),etc for the mission critical radar, electronic warfare and satellite systems


Transmit (T) modules for EW applications and transmit/receive (T/R) modules for radar applications

Power Amplifiers

ASELSAN Gallium Arsenide (GaAs) and Gallium Nitride (GaN) based power amplifiers. These high-power and high-efficiency modules have been deployed to the field in defence and space applications

Frequency Converters

Narrow and wideband frequency converters are among the basic building blocks of radar and electronic warfare systems.

MMICs

MMICs are considered as one of the most critical active components of a compact microwave module since they monolithically integrates many functions on a certain substrate of choice. ASELSAN has an in-house MMIC design center based on Gallium Arsenide (GaAs) and Gallium Nitride (GaN) technologies.

also Turkish Havelsan ADVENT next generation Network Enabled Data Integrated Combat Management System for Cooperative Engagment Capability ...... ( only a few Countries in the World )

 

[MMM-E]

also Aselsan Infrared Photodetectors ....... ( only The US,Israel,France,Turkey in the world )
-- HgCdTe
-- QWIP
-- InSb
-- InGaAs

where is China , İndia and İran ?

This technology, owned by a limited number of developed countries and manufacturers in the world and ASELSAN is one of them

-- LWIR , MWIR , SWIR
-- also ASELSAN is one of the few UV tube manufacturers in the world for E/O Systems
-- also Cadmium Zinc Telluride ( CZT ) production technology owned by very few Countries in the world, and ASELSAN is one of the rare companies that can develop this technology




PAF Purchased Turkish ASELSAN Advanced Targeting Pods for JF-17 Thunder Jets

ASELSAN Long Range IFF Mod 5/S interrogator ( 463 km ) and only 7 Countries in the World