TRUMP’S “MODERATE” DEFENSE SECRETARY HAS ALREADY BROUGHT US TO THE BRINK OF WAR

[Akasa]

Let's back out a bit. You said most of the casualty was caused by Iraqis using their own people as human shield when US invaded.

You are taking my words out of context. The original charge of the Intercept article was that Mr. Mattis is personally responsible for the civilian casualties of numerous battles, including (and the one I'm focusing on) that of Fallujah. The mention of "human shields" is to emphasize that civilian deaths arise from numerous causes, and until a thorough investigation is conducted on the military/non-military factors that resulted in those civilian casualties, we cannot pin those deaths on any single individual, especially when insurgents (in Iraq and elsewhere) have been known to either attack civilians or use them as leverage against US forces.

And I said US had no business to be there to begin with. When you decide to occupy a country in less than three months, you will intentionally ignore a lot of humanitarian fundamentals other wise, it will take much longer.

Humanitarian fundamentals may not have been a top priority of the brass that made the decision to enter Iraq, but you can be certain that they existed within the day-to-day soldiers who carried out such operations. Until it is concluded that Mr. Mattis had either (1) operated via misconduct or (2) neglected military protocols that led to civilian casualties, however "wrong" the Iraq War was has no bearing on his guilt (or innocence).

 

[Arminkh]

You are taking my words out of context. The original charge of the Intercept article was that Mr. Mattis is personally responsible for the civilian casualties of numerous battles, including (and the one I'm focusing on) that of Fallujah. The mention of "human shields" is to emphasize that civilian deaths arise from numerous causes, and until a thorough investigation is conducted on the military/non-military factors that resulted in those civilian casualties, we cannot pin those deaths on any single individual, especially when insurgents (in Iraq and elsewhere) have been known to either attack civilians or use them as leverage against US forces.



Humanitarian fundamentals may not have been a top priority of the brass that made the decision to enter Iraq, but you can be certain that they existed within the day-to-day soldiers who carried out such operations. Until it is concluded that Mr. Mattis had either (1) operated via misconduct or (2) neglected military protocols that led to civilian casualties, however "wrong" the Iraq War was has no bearing on his guilt (or innocence).

And who is supposed to prove whether he (1) operated via misconduct or (2) neglected military protocols?

You are not going to hear it from the US officials because we are dealing with "give all the ones who had something to do with shooting down Iranian passenger jet a medal" kind of officials.

Please read again:

Six months later, in November 2004, it was Mattis who planned the Marine assault on Fallujah that reduced that city to rubble, forced 200,000 residents from their homes, and resulted, according to the Red Cross, in at least 800 civilian deaths.

And this:

During the April 2004 siege, more than 700 civilians were killed by the US military, according to Iraqi doctors in the city whom I interviewed in the aftermath of that attack.

While reporting from inside Fallujah during that siege, I personally witnessed women, children, elderly people and ambulances being targeted by US snipers under Mattis' command. Needless to say, all of these are war crimes.

During the November siege of Fallujah later that same year, which I also covered first-hand, more than 5,000 Iraqi civilians were killed. Most were buried in mass graves in the aftermath of the siege.

Mosques were deliberately targeted by the US military, hospitals bombed, medical workers detained, ambulances shot at, cease-fires violated, media repressed, and the use of depleted uranium was widespread. All of these are, again, war crimes.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-po...l-i-experienced-his-attack-fallujah-firsthand

It is up to every responsible citizen of this world to read these and do some sole searching and see what he thinks about the conduct of that person. To me, he is a criminal even though, his patriot superiors would never admit it.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Israel boarded a few Iranian ships intercepting weapons.

Six months later, in November 2004, it was Mattis who planned the Marine assault on Fallujah that reduced that city to rubble, forced 200,000 residents from their homes, and resulted, according to the Red Cross, in at least 800 civilian deaths.

No army is free of civilian causalities in war.

 

[The SC]

"the U.S. Navy to “intercept and board an Iranian ship to look for contraband weapons possibly headed to Houthi fighters in Yemen""

It did not say an Iranian Navy Ship, that came later on in the article as some interpretation of the aborted event.. the Ship could have been civilian or military..

 

[Akasa]

And who is supposed to prove whether he (1) operated via misconduct or (2) neglected military protocols?

Usually it's the ICC, or another international body that we've never heard of, but it's certainly not going to be an article out of a tabloid like the "Intercept". Such investigations necessitate a preceding charge or observation that the civilian deaths have been caused by something other than the imperfect nature of an urban conflict.

You are not going to hear it from the US officials because we are dealing with "give all the ones who had something to do with shooting down Iranian passenger jet a medal" kind of officials.

If you believe that the crew of the Vincennes received medals solely for shooting down an Iranian airliner, then I've lost either my ability to detect sarcasm in your posts or any reason to rationally reflect on them.

Please read again:

Six months later, in November 2004, it was Mattis who planned the Marine assault on Fallujah that reduced that city to rubble, forced 200,000 residents from their homes, and resulted, according to the Red Cross, in at least 800 civilian deaths.

This doesn't change my premise. As much as Mattis et. al were involved in the initiation & undertaking of the battle, neither this article nor battle reports could pin the human displacement + casualties on Mattis or his men, or prove that such losses & damage were resultant from legally-contravening military action.

And this:

During the April 2004 siege, more than 700 civilians were killed by the US military, according to Iraqi doctors in the city whom I interviewed in the aftermath of that attack.

While reporting from inside Fallujah during that siege, I personally witnessed women, children, elderly people and ambulances being targeted by US snipers under Mattis' command. Needless to say, all of these are war crimes.

During the November siege of Fallujah later that same year, which I also covered first-hand, more than 5,000 Iraqi civilians were killed. Most were buried in mass graves in the aftermath of the siege.

Mosques were deliberately targeted by the US military, hospitals bombed, medical workers detained, ambulances shot at, cease-fires violated, media repressed, and the use of depleted uranium was widespread. All of these are, again, war crimes.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/james-mattis-war-criminal-i-experienced-his-attack-fallujah-firsthand

If the witnesses feel that their claims & evidence are just, they are more than welcome to bring them to international courts/tribunals (much like many victims of the Vietnam War did), and their case would be relatively free of US meddling. I'd also like to mention that there is zero possibility for any eyewitness to definitely prove that such targetings were deliberate in nature.

It is up to every responsible citizen of this world to read these and do some sole searching and see what he thinks about the conduct of that person. To me, he is a criminal even though, his patriot superiors would never admit it.

To claim that Mattis' conduct led to these civilian hardships would require you to provide objective, unrefutable evidence that he contravened the laws of war (i.e. that Mr. Mattis either deliberately ordered his subordinates to target civilians, that Mr. Mattis did not follow proper military protocol when conducting operations, that Mr. Mattis chose to neglect certain protocols meant to preserve civilian life, and that all of the aforementioned can be physically traced - via paper or electronic trail - to Mr. Mattis himself).

I'm all ears.

 

[AmirPatriot]

If you believe that the crew of the Vincennes received medals solely for shooting down an Iranian airliner, then I've lost either my ability to detect sarcasm in your posts or any reason to rationally reflect on them.

They got it for the end for "meritorious conduct" - shooting down airliners is meritorious! - and "efficiently conducting the firing procedure" (or something like that) - efficiently shooting down a civillian airliner!

 

[Fafnir]

They got it for the end for "meritorious conduct" - shooting down airliners is meritorious! - and "efficiently conducting the firing procedure" (or something like that) - efficiently shooting down a civillian airliner!

Yes,one does have to wonder if they would have received said medal if they had shot down a saudi/gulfie or israeli airliner,somehow I suspect not,indeed I have a sneaking suspicion that not only would the captain and likely some of his senior officers careers have come to a sudden and screeching halt[to put it mildly],actually I think that probably would have been the least of their worries at that point as I strongly suspect they would be facing a general court-martial on some extremely serious charges that if proved would not only completely and utterly destroy their naval careers but would also very likely result in a significant loss of liberty as well.

And who could forget this or the wests outraged reaction to it,I can especially remember the anger when it was reported that the ussr had awarded the pilot a medal[tho this in fact never happened but he did supposedly receive 200 roubles bonus],who wouldve thought that a little over 5 years later the us would do exactly the same thing

Lastly I do have to laugh at the "Its time to talk with iran" byline on the newsweek cover in amirs post ad its by henry kissenger no less,I`d really love to read that one
The other thing that cracks me up is the headlines,in the newsweek on kal007 its "MURDER IN THE AIR!!!",but on the one about iran air 655 its "the gulf tragedy" in a tiny little box.....double standards and hypocrisy perhaps?

 

[cocomo]

So SecDef Mattis actually averted a war. Additionally, way to go on the attempt to pin civilian deaths on a Marine general who was battling insurgents that have been known to use human shields.

Haven't Americans committed genocide in America with native americans? There aren't exact figures but according to estimates there were 100 million natives living in America when the civilized (europeans) came and now there are hardly any natives left. Now that's some next level savagery even Hitler doesn't compare. Americans have a record of consistently killing civilians, a people who have no remorse for deliberately killing civilians by wiping out 2 cities in Japan. I mean don't act surprised if USA is complicit in killing civilians. I think its to do with their nature, the savage animal instinct in America is very strong, just go to a beach in America its like a savage fest.
In last 3 decades USA has invaded 6 Muslim countries and killed millions of precious Muslim civilians. The only way for us to defend ourselves against American savages in by aligning with its enemies. I for example if had power would give military bases to Russia along Pak-Afghan border for Russians to target ISIS and their supporters. And also target any launchpads that USA would like to build to house and train Anti-Russia / Anti-China / Anti-Iran / Anti-Pakistan terrorists.

 

[Akasa]

They got it for the end for "meritorious conduct" - shooting down airliners is meritorious! - and "efficiently conducting the firing procedure" (or something like that) - efficiently shooting down a civillian airliner!

Medals were awarded for the crews' ability to gauge, assess, & act upon various circumstances at the time of the shootdown and in the midst of a naval battle, not the actual act of mistakenly targeting the airliner. Such decisions to decorate men do not come until a thorough investigation of both hardware and human factors have been conducted.

Haven't Americans committed genocide in America with native americans? There aren't exact figures but according to estimates there were 100 million natives living in America when the civilized (europeans) came and now there are hardly any natives left. Now that's some next level savagery even Hitler doesn't compare. Americans have a record of consistently killing civilians, a people who have no remorse for deliberately killing civilians by wiping out 2 cities in Japan. I mean don't act surprised if USA is complicit in killing civilians. I think its to do with their nature, the savage animal instinct in America is very strong, just go to a beach in America its like a savage fest.
In last 3 decades USA has invaded 6 Muslim countries and killed millions of precious Muslim civilians. The only way for us to defend ourselves against American savages in by aligning with its enemies. I for example if had power would give military bases to Russia along Pak-Afghan border for Russians to target ISIS and their supporters. And also target any launchpads that USA would like to build to house and train Anti-Russia / Anti-China / Anti-Iran / Anti-Pakistan terrorists.

None of what you've described changes anything with respect to Mr. Mattis' role in the Battle of Fallujah or the rest of his career. Ironically, specific countries that you've mentioned that were allegedly targeted by the US had far worse records in both warfare and human rights.

 

[AmirPatriot]

Medals were awarded for the crews' ability to gauge, assess, & act upon various circumstances at the time of the shootdown and in the midst of a naval battle

First of all, among the medals was one awarded for the efficient firing of the SM-2 missiles that shot down the Airbus.

Second, the whole damn thing was an utter mess. And that is me putting what the American media have said.

http://europe.newsweek.com/sea-lies-200118?rm=eu

American media allege that the shootdown was as a result of a copious number of mistakes. Mistakes should not be rewarded. Furthermore, if you are about to honour the crew for shooting down an airliner so efficiently, then you should start awarding medals to the Nazis for gassing the Jews so efficiently. After all, the moral isn't being awarded, its the act, right? And to ignore the glaring instance of murdering 290 human beings because they remained calm while attacking a bunch of speedboats is an insult to the families of the dead.

Remember, I am still presenting what the American media has said. In Iran, the shootdown is widely viewed as a deliberate and planned attack to provoke Iran into a conflict or demonstrate the US' ability to do whatever the hell it likes and get away with it (like launching a war on Iran).

I personally view it as a mix of the two. In my opinion the bloodthirsty captain's actions led to the mistakes, but resulted in a situation which the US exploited to show how immune it is to criticism, through its control of the media, thus sending a message to Iran that the US attacking Iran would not face significant negative international reaction, which (the US hoped) would then force Iran to undertake a less anti-imperialistic stance. What the US doesn't recognise is that if you give medals to the scumbags that murdered 290 innocent civilians, then not only refuse to apologise or admit any wrongdoing, but stage a cover up, it will only make Iran hate the US even more.

I'd be interested in the US' response if Iran took a ship to the Gulf of Mexico and shot down a US airliner, then gave the captain and the guy who fired the missiles medals, let those individuals carry on a normal and fruitful life, and refused to so much as admit wrongdoing, let alone apologise.

Though maybe the response wouldn't be so interesting.

 

[Akasa]

First of all, among the medals was one awarded for the efficient firing of the SM-2 missiles that shot down the Airbus.

Second, the whole damn thing was an utter mess. And that is me putting what the American media have said.

http://europe.newsweek.com/sea-lies-200118?rm=eu

American media allege that the shootdown was as a result of a copious number of mistakes. Mistakes should not be rewarded. Furthermore, if you are about to honour the crew for shooting down an airliner so efficiently, then you should start awarding medals to the Nazis for gassing the Jews so efficiently. After all, the moral isn't being awarded, its the act, right? And to ignore the glaring instance of murdering 290 human beings because they remained calm while attacking a bunch of speedboats is an insult to the families of the dead.

A mistake is carried out when certain procedures are erroneously ignored, or through pure happenstance, not through a supposed lack of morals. The Flight 655 shootdown and Nazi persecution of Jews are two completely different instances precipitated by utterly different circumstances/mindsets.

Subsequent investigations of the shootdown confirmed that the incident was due to a combination of technical and human errors, not a systematic or deliberate order to carry out the deed.

Remember, I am still presenting what the American media has said. In Iran, the shootdown is widely viewed as a deliberate and planned attack to provoke Iran into a conflict or demonstrate the US' ability to do whatever the hell it likes and get away with it (like launching a war on Iran).

Describe "widely-viewed"; by whom, and by how many officials? The formal investigation undertaken & presented to the DoD concluded that the incident was entirely due to error, human or otherwise.

I personally view it as a mix of the two. In my opinion the bloodthirsty captain's actions led to the mistakes, but resulted in a situation which the US exploited to show how immune it is to criticism, through its control of the media, thus sending a message to Iran that the US attacking Iran would not face significant negative international reaction, which (the US hoped) would then force Iran to undertake a less anti-imperialistic stance. What the US doesn't recognise is that if you give medals to the scumbags that murdered 290 innocent civilians, then not only refuse to apologise or admit any wrongdoing, but stage a cover up, it will only make Iran hate the US even more.

The "bloodthirsty" captain was in the midst of engaging aggressive gunboats while dealing with an aerial unknown threat that was highly reminiscent to the then-recent Iraqi AShM attack on the USS Stark. It wasn't the first time that a military attack was made in error, nor was it the first time that crewmembers were awarded for their actions despite the accidental nature of the event.

You are free to your speculation regarding the incident, but to charge that this tragedy was somehow an American ploy to usurp the Iranian regime is the ultimate insult to those who perished in the shootdown.

I'd be interested in the US' response if Iran took a ship to the Gulf of Mexico and shot down a US airliner, then gave the captain and the guy who fired the missiles medals, let those individuals carry on a normal and fruitful life, and refused to so much as admit wrongdoing, let alone apologise.

Though maybe the response wouldn't be so interesting.

Except that the US has fully accounted for the errors leading to the incident, and has even released a report on it: http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/International_Security_Affairs/172.pdf

Ironically, it is your Iranian government that has yet to apologize for its "role" in the 1979 hostage crisis.

 

[AmirPatriot]

A mistake is carried out when certain procedures are erroneously ignored, or through pure happenstance, not through a supposed lack of morals. The Flight 655 shootdown and Nazi persecution of Jews are two completely different instances precipitated by utterly different circumstances/mindsets.

Subsequent investigations of the shootdown confirmed that the incident was due to a combination of technical and human errors, not a systematic or deliberate order to carry out the deed.

So if this was supposedly a mistake, why was it rewarded instead of punished? Maybe because rewarding it was politically beneficial.

Describe "widely-viewed"; by whom

Iranians.

The "bloodthirsty" captain was in the midst of engaging aggressive gunboats

I take it, judging by your hasty reply, you did not read the Newsweek article. Do that then tell me about "aggressive" gunboats.

to charge that this tragedy was somehow an American ploy to usurp the Iranian regime is the ultimate insult to those who perished in the shootdown.

I'm the one who is outraged at the shootdown, yet you are an apologist for it! So who's being insulting? Not me, and don't accuse me of such.

Except that the US has fully accounted for the errors leading to the incident, and has even released a report on it:

That's like asking a murderer to choose his own sentence. In this case, and if you had read my article you would know, the reports lied, twisted and covered up information. And still fail to admit wrongdoing.

 

[Arminkh]

I'm all ears.

You are not.

 

[Faravahar]

A mistake is carried out when certain procedures are erroneously ignored, or through pure happenstance, not through a supposed lack of morals. The Flight 655 shootdown and Nazi persecution of Jews are two completely different instances precipitated by utterly different circumstances/mindsets.

Subsequent investigations of the shootdown confirmed that the incident was due to a combination of technical and human errors, not a systematic or deliberate order to carry out the deed.



Describe "widely-viewed"; by whom, and by how many officials? The formal investigation undertaken & presented to the DoD concluded that the incident was entirely due to error, human or otherwise.



The "bloodthirsty" captain was in the midst of engaging aggressive gunboats while dealing with an aerial unknown threat that was highly reminiscent to the then-recent Iraqi AShM attack on the USS Stark. It wasn't the first time that a military attack was made in error, nor was it the first time that crewmembers were awarded for their actions despite the accidental nature of the event.

You are free to your speculation regarding the incident, but to charge that this tragedy was somehow an American ploy to usurp the Iranian regime is the ultimate insult to those who perished in the shootdown.



Except that the US has fully accounted for the errors leading to the incident, and has even released a report on it: http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/International_Security_Affairs/172.pdf

Ironically, it is your Iranian government that has yet to apologize for its "role" in the 1979 hostage crisis.

Are you another of them uncle Toms? The Chinese version?

 

[Fafnir]

Are you another of them uncle Toms? The Chinese version?

Wouldnt that be uncle wong?