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Lol. Genocide ha. Dharmic religions does not have a word for that. Our religion is not book based, written and codified to say conversion to one's religion guarantees virgins in heaven. If it was so, there wouldn't have been 200 million muslims in India still.

How stupid are you? Could say the same thing about hindus. If muslims wanted to force hindus to islam they could have done it within years. Not 1 hindu would have been left.
 
iu


There are millions of buddhists in India and several districts that are majority Buddhist. I am curious, how many Buddhists are in tolerant Pakistan? Are there any Buddhist majority districts?

- show a Map of ancient Buddhist Indian empire that was almost all of India

- shows another map with about 1% of modern India where Buddhist still exist.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

You Indians are a special kind of retarded.

And why on earth would you ask where the Buddhist are in Pakistan?
Even a rat knows enough history to know that we have first hand accounts of Arabs from the 7th century that said the land was all Hindu.

Meaning that...
BUDDHIST WERE KILLED OFF BY HINDUS BEFORE ISLAM EVER ARRIVED TO INDIA
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Seriously, you Indian IT scammers and rapist are given the same training
"when cornered just say "what about Pakistan""

well what about Pakistan:azn:

Lol. Genocide ha. Dharmic religions does not have a word for that. Our religion is not book based, written and codified to say conversion to one's religion guarantees virgins in heaven. If it was so, there wouldn't have been 200 million muslims in India still.
:blah:
You killed off all the Buddhist and now pretending like you didn't.
Hindus cannot tolerate minorities, they killed the Buddhist previously and they will kill the Muslims now.
 
How stupid are you? Could say the same thing about hindus. If muslims wanted to force hindus to islam they could have done it within years. Not 1 hindu would have been left.
It doesn't take a genius to see that in the India, the places with the most muslims are those that were ruled by Muslim empires the longest. Muslim rule in UP and Bihar lasted about 500 years, so those states have some of the largest Muslim populations in India. Whereas states like Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Odisha, Chhattisgarh, Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh, Nepal, and the Northeast were never ruled by Muslim Empires for any significant amount of time, so they have almost nonexistant Muslim populations.

The fact that Pakistan, which was ruled by Muslim Empires for about 1000 years, is almost 100 percent Muslim is another example.

The fact is the Mughals couldn't have forced the entirety of India to convert simply because they didn't even rule over most of the country's area. Instead, most conversions occured in areas that were directly ruled the most.

- show a Map of ancient Buddhist Indian empire that was almost all of India

- shows another map with about 1% of modern India where Buddhist still exist.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

You Indians are a special kind of retarded.

And why on earth would you ask where the Buddhist are in Pakistan?
Even a rat knows enough history to know that we have first hand accounts of Arabs from the 7th century that said the land was all Hindu.

Meaning that...
BUDDHIST WERE KILLED OFF BY HINDUS BEFORE ISLAM EVER ARRIVED TO INDIA
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Seriously, you Indian IT scammers and rapist are given the same training
"when cornered just say "what about Pakistan""

well what about Pakistan:azn:


:blah:
You killed off all the Buddhist and now pretending like you didn't.
Hindus cannot tolerate minorities, they killed the Buddhist previously and they will kill the Muslims now.
India was never majority Buddhist at any time in its history. And Ashok was the only Buddhist leader of India. Do you have any evidence for a supposed Buddist genocide in India?
 
First of all, I don't know what you mean be "before Hindus came along," because it is a historically established fact that Hinduism predates Buddhism.

And there are plenty of Buddhist stupas in India, many of which date back as far as 200 BC. such as Sanchi. Many of the holiest sites in Buddhism are in India.

It is not uncommon for names of cities and other locations to change. By your logic, renaming Bombay as Mumbaii is biased against British heritage, because the British named the City Bombay even though the local Maratis called the area as Mumbai.

It is a historical fact that Allahbad was called Prayag before the Mughal era. Whether it should be renamed to Prayag is a whole other issue. The irony is Allahbad is actually a holy spot for Hindus, since it is the location where the Ganges and Yamuna converge.

Once again, i am not saying I support such renaming, I am simply stating a historical fact. Although you still do not seem to understand the fact that the history of India does not begin and end with Muslims.


So what were we then? Martians? Do you seriously think the Mughals were the first Empire in India? The Mauryans, Nandas, Shungas, and guptas all controlled more land than the Mughals and for a longer time.
iu




iu


By your logic Pakistan is only 70 years old.


Boundaries of imaginary Maurya "empire" are contested..Neither it was a consolidated state as projected in maps.It was not ruled by single authority for sure..

Go though this thread
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ashok-mythical-creation-of-3-british-colonialists.58070/
 
It doesn't take a genius to see that in the India, the places with the most muslims are those that were ruled by Muslim empires the longest. Muslim rule in UP and Bihar lasted about 500 years, so those states have some of the largest Muslim populations in India. Whereas states like Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Odisha, Chhattisgarh, Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh, Nepal, and the Northeast were never ruled by Muslim Empires for any significant amount of time, so they have almost nonexistant Muslim populations.

The fact that Pakistan, which was ruled by Muslim Empires for about 1000 years, is almost 100 percent Muslim is another example.

The fact is the Mughals couldn't have forced the entirety of India to convert simply because they didn't even rule over most of the country's area. Instead, most conversions occured in areas that were directly ruled the most.


India was never majority Buddhist at any time in its history. And Ashok was the only Buddhist leader of India. Do you have any evidence for a supposed Buddist genocide in India?
But Pakistan was.
We have all the historic record that around 0-300 AD Pakistan and Afghanistan were majority Buddhist.
The next record we have is 700 when Arabs invaded the Indus and they wrote that the entire population was Hindu.

We know that Hindu kingdoms conquered the Buddhists kingdoms before that time and the only way you turn a majority Buddhist population to zero is forced conversion.

This also goes for India, but you are right, they were not as fully Buddhist as we were.
But still, only outlying areas gave refuge to Buddhists from Hindus. Heart of India was Hindu or death.
 
Boundaries of imaginary Maurya "empire" are contested..Neither it was a consolidated state as projected in maps.It was not ruled by single authority for sure..

Go though this thread
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ashok-mythical-creation-of-3-british-colonialists.58070/
Can you name me any reputable scholars who have made such claims? Genuinely curious. Especially considering Meghasthenes gave a pretty clear account of Mauryan-era India. That and the fact that Ashok's pillars have been found all the way from Kandahar to Odisha, and all were from the same era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Ashoka
 
With the exception of the brief period of Aurangzeb that lasted under 100 years, The Mughal Empire was comparable in size with the Guptas. And the Gupta period is considered by historians to be the golden age of India.

The Cholas also controlled more area than the Mughals if you include their tributary states in Southeast Asia. BTW, the Cholas were the only South Asian Empire to expand outside of South Asia.

250px-Rajendra_map_new.svg.png


Chandragupta Maurya only converted to Jainism after he abdicated the throne, and his son Bhindusara who succeeded him was a Hindu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindusara

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandragupta_Maurya

The fact is India was one of the world's most ancient civilizations prior to the Mughals. In fact, the reason why Central Asian invaders who founded the Mughal dynasty invaded India was because it was one of the world's most prosperous regions at the time.

As for Pakistan, many "Indus Nationalists" consider modern-day Pakistan to be over 4000 years old. I have read many of their threads in the Pakistan History section, and I find them fascinating.
Just give your inferiority syndrome a rest man. I would have some respect for you and other Indians if you simply accepted Hindustan was at its strongest under the mughals and the British, and because of your inherent bias you wish to erase that deliberately. The rest of these elephant riders did very little in comparison in terms of statecraft and empire building. I suppose the marathas gave the world the sheer stupid idea of bringing families to war camps. Didn't last long that one.

My reference to Buddhism was with regards to Hindus being involved in building over Buddhist sites, renaming them and pushing them out of India waaaaayyy before Islam was born. It happened whether you like it or not.
 
Just give your inferiority syndrome a rest man. I would have some respect for you and other Indians if you simply accepted Hindustan was at its strongest under the mughals and the British, and because of your inherent bias you wish to erase that deliberately. The rest of these elephant riders did very little in comparison in terms of statecraft and empire building. I suppose the marathas gave the world the sheer stupid idea of bringing families to war camps. Didn't last long that one.

My reference to Buddhism was with regards to Hindus being involved in building over Buddhist sites, renaming them and pushing them out of India waaaaayyy before Islam was born. It happened whether you like it or not.
I can tell you don't know much about South Asian history. India was the strongest under the Mauryans. Not only did the Mauryans have more land area than any other Indian empire, they also were able to fully expel Greeks form South Asia.

And as I have said several times, it is a historically accepted fact that the Gupta Empire was India's golden age. I will post this video again, please watch it. The Mughals didn't come close to the acheivements India made in fields such as mathematics, medicine, architecture, literature, etc. before and during that period.
It is a good thing the Mughals never ruled most of modern India, or all that would have been lost(like it was in Pakistan)


You sure seem to have an obsession with the Marathas. I guess it is because they destroyed the Mughal Empire and at one point ruled everywhere from Peshawar to Kolkata. Oh and they were the only south Asian empire to defeat the british(Research the first anglo Maratha war)

I do agree with you about the British, though. British rule played a major role in the development of the modern nation states of India and Pakistan.

I am curious, why do you have such a hatred of pre-Islamic South Asian heritage? You accuse me of being biased when you have shown nothing but bias during our interaction.
 
Meanwhile US asks it's flights not to fly close to Pakistan. Forget tourists.
 
I can tell you don't know much about South Asian history. India was the strongest under the Mauryans. Not only did the Mauryans have more land area than any other Indian empire, they also were able to fully expel Greeks form South Asia.

And as I have said several times, it is a historically accepted fact that the Gupta Empire was India's golden age. I will post this video again, please watch it. The Mughals didn't come close to the acheivements India made in fields such as mathematics, medicine, architecture, literature, etc. before and during that period.
It is a good thing the Mughals never ruled most of modern India, or all that would have been lost(like it was in Pakistan)


You sure seem to have an obsession with the Marathas. I guess it is because they destroyed the Mughal Empire and at one point ruled everywhere from Peshawar to Kolkata. Oh and they were the only south Asian empire to defeat the british(Research the first anglo Maratha war)

I do agree with you about the British, though. British rule played a major role in the development of the modern nation states of India and Pakistan.

I am curious, why do you have such a hatred of pre-Islamic South Asian heritage? You accuse me of being biased when you have shown nothing but bias during our interaction.
Man give your nonsense a rest. It's annoying.... Gupta this maratha that....British are ok but mughals haram. Your anti-Muslim bias is pathetic and blatant.

I have no personal issues whatsoever with the various pre Islamic tribes who contributed to south Asian development. When did I ever say that?Pakistan itself has a glorious pre-Islamic history. I simply said the mughals overall did the best job of coalescing hindustan into a functional superpower state. The pre-existing nations didn't achieve such geopolitical clout as the mughals, who were regarded as a genuine political and military threat to regional powers and an obsession for European colonial powers. The artistic, administrative and cultural achievements of the mughals speak for themselves.

And when did I single out the marathas for some kind of analysis other than mentioning the foolishness of bringing families along to a war zone?

Why misrepresent me to deliberately force your pov through? It's obvious to see your lies because every statement here is preserved on the thread.

My problem is Hindustan's miserable obsession with blackening the name of the mughals over all other medieval Indian regimes and seeking - with the blessing of misguided folks like you - their historical and erasure and denial of their legacy. Marathas, guptas, brahminists and the rest of pre-modern India's empires were all products of their time just like the mughals. Let's not start on questionable moral codes of Hindu kingdoms as that has been elucidated on several recent threads already. The fact remains, to single out the mughals for condemnation as presiding over a period of "enslavement" of India is malicious and fosters malevolent intent. The only perceptible reason to do this is because of their Muslim identity. This is Modi's big problem and you simply feed into this problem.

All over the world, modern peoples tolerate and indeed are proud of their various heritages. Why does Hindutva feel special like some Nazi state that it can claim and then enforce historical purity?

Vikings, Romans, Huns, Goths and all sorts of brutal empires rampaged through Europe, bringing new religions with them more often than not. If Europe tried to block out or erase the traumatic parts of its history because of some perpetual PTSD, white people would still be killing each other every day across this continent.

Sometimes you should step back from your biased vantage point and observe things from a third person point of view, just to realise what you're really thinking.
 
Man give your nonsense a rest. It's annoying.... Gupta this maratha that....British are ok but mughals haram. Your anti-Muslim bias is pathetic and blatant.

I have no personal issues whatsoever with the various pre Islamic tribes who contributed to south Asian development. When did I ever say that?Pakistan itself has a glorious pre-Islamic history. I simply said the mughals overall did the best job of coalescing hindustan into a functional superpower state. The pre-existing nations didn't achieve such geopolitical clout as the mughals, who were regarded as a genuine political and military threat to regional powers and an obsession for European colonial powers. The artistic, administrative and cultural achievements of the mughals speak for themselves.

And when did I single out the marathas for some kind of analysis other than mentioning the foolishness of bringing families along to a war zone?

Why misrepresent me to deliberately force your pov through? It's obvious to see your lies because every statement here is preserved on the thread.

My problem is Hindustan's miserable obsession with blackening the name of the mughals over all other medieval Indian regimes and seeking - with the blessing of misguided folks like you - their historical and erasure and denial of their legacy. Marathas, guptas, brahminists and the rest of pre-modern India's empires were all products of their time just like the mughals. Let's not start on questionable moral codes of Hindu kingdoms as that has been elucidated on several recent threads already. The fact remains, to single out the mughals for condemnation as presiding over a period of "enslavement" of India is malicious and fosters malevolent intent. The only perceptible reason to do this is because of their Muslim identity. This is Modi's big problem and you simply feed into this problem.

All over the world, modern peoples tolerate and indeed are proud of their various heritages. Why does Hindutva feel special like some Nazi state that it can claim and then enforce historical purity?

Vikings, Romans, Huns, Goths and all sorts of brutal empires rampaged through Europe, bringing new religions with them more often than not. If Europe tried to block out or erase the traumatic parts of its history because of some perpetual PTSD, white people would still be killing each other every day across this continent.

Sometimes you should step back from your biased vantage point and observe things from a third person point of view, just to realise what you're really thinking.
Well lets just say I disagree with your comparison of pre-Islamic Empires to the Muslim Empires. But I actually agree with you about the Mughals being a product of their times. the fact is all of the bad things the Mughals did(looting forced conversion, etc.) were acceptable during their time. If anything, the Eurpopeanswere worse in that rgard.(For example, Spanish in South America).

But I don't see how the Mughals were an "obseession" for the Europeans and more than non muslim Empires were. After all, the British literallly went to war with the Marathas three times to subdue them, and also had trouble defeating the Sikhs. The Portugueese also went to war with the Marathas several time(The Marathas are actually why the Purtugueese failed to expand past Goa, which is good, because they were far more brutal than than the British as colonizers). Even the Dutch went to war with the Travancore kingdom, a significnatly smaller power than anything else I have mentioned.

In comparison, the British were able to defeat Mysore relatively easily.
The only reason why you didn't see European interest in India prior to the age of Muslim invaders is that there simply were no European powers at the time. Even then, foreign powers were interested in India. As I said, the Greeks tried to invade India during the Mauryan period. And even under the Mughals, India was an insular-looking state like it was for most of its history and until very recently. So I don't know what you mean by "geopolitical clout." Personally, I think the only time India could have been classified as a "superpower" was during the Mauryan period. Prior to modern-day India, I would say the only Indian Empire with "Geopolitical clout" would be the Cholas, due to their major influence in southeast Asia, which is still seen today.

Anyway, I stand by my belief that most major advancements in Indian civilization occuredd before adn during the Gupta period. I am not saying the Mughals didn't make contributions to Indian culture and heritage, but were there any Mughal mathematicians and scientists comparable to Brahmagupta, Aryabhata, Sushruta, etc?

But it looks like we will probably have to agree to disagree. Regards, and a belated happy new year.
 
Well lets just say I disagree with your comparison of pre-Islamic Empires to the Muslim Empires. But I actually agree with you about the Mughals being a product of their times. the fact is all of the bad things the Mughals did(looting forced conversion, etc.) were acceptable during their time. If anything, the Eurpopeanswere worse in that rgard.(For example, Spanish in South America).

But I don't see how the Mughals were an "obseession" for the Europeans and more than non muslim Empires were. After all, the British literallly went to war with the Marathas three times to subdue them, and also had trouble defeating the Sikhs. The Portugueese also went to war with the Marathas several time(The Marathas are actually why the Purtugueese failed to expand past Goa, which is good, because they were far more brutal than than the British as colonizers). Even the Dutch went to war with the Travancore kingdom, a significnatly smaller power than anything else I have mentioned.

In comparison, the British were able to defeat Mysore relatively easily.
The only reason why you didn't see European interest in India prior to the age of Muslim invaders is that there simply were no European powers at the time. Even then, foreign powers were interested in India. As I said, the Greeks tried to invade India during the Mauryan period. And even under the Mughals, India was an insular-looking state like it was for most of its history and until very recently. So I don't know what you mean by "geopolitical clout." Personally, I think the only time India could have been classified as a "superpower" was during the Mauryan period. Prior to modern-day India, I would say the only Indian Empire with "Geopolitical clout" would be the Cholas, due to their major influence in southeast Asia, which is still seen today.

Anyway, I stand by my belief that most major advancements in Indian civilization occuredd before adn during the Gupta period. I am not saying the Mughals didn't make contributions to Indian culture and heritage, but were there any Mughal mathematicians and scientists comparable to Brahmagupta, Aryabhata, Sushruta, etc?

But it looks like we will probably have to agree to disagree. Regards, and a belated happy new year.
Ok so you routinely respond to half my post while disregarding the more important criticisms I level at you and the nation state of India. Fair enough.

You're entitled to your opinions but your interpretations of history are completely subjective. Many would argue that Alexander turned back as he was overly stretched by the time he reached the Hindu tribes and it is even documented that following the draining campaign against Porus, his own men rebelled against further eastward expansion. It's a combination of exhaustion, overstretched supply lines and no strategic end point in sight that caused the Greeks to turn back, rather than some military brilliance of the natives. Overwhelming numbers of men and elephants lying in wait also caused the Macedonians to hesitate in their advance. This is hardly some stunning military tactic at play - just simple overwhelming threat of numbers east of the Indus - a story familiar in the modern era also. After Alexander, the Greeks and seleucids had negligible forays into India and were busier elsewhere fighting other more dangerous rivals.

As for comparing Islamic and pre-Islamic empires, on the one hand you agree they are all products of a similar era (they MUST be as the main one you keep quoting - the marathas - fought bitterly against the afghans/mughals) yet you also say you disagree about their behaviour and ethics being comparable. Do you really wish to sit here and claim the marathas never sacked any lesser tribes - Muslim or otherwise? Because we can certainly go down that road of revelation if you wish. Before you neatly compartmentalize Muslims and Catholics into one box with Hindus on some apparently superior moral ground, do remind us of the maratha expeditions into Bengal and the half million civilians massacred therein.

Like I have said many times, this false moral relativism between Hindus and Muslims, exacerbated by the further myth that only Muslims were "INVADERS" and indeed the myth that because mughals were invaders, they have no right over the legacy of Hindustan and Hindus reserve some bizarre right to erase their heritage, all creates a dangerous basis upon which one's ideologies are crystallized. It leads to a superiority complex as a reaction to a historical inferiority complex. This dehumanization of mughals/Muslims extends easily to modern Pakistanis and Indian Muslims.

And so, here we are in 2020. In India, it always has been one narrative/rule/justification/legacy for Muslims and a different one for Hindus. What we see today is a product of this xenophobic mughal-hating mindset.

And I don't know why I'm even going to lower myself to discuss your summary dismissal of Mughal scientific achievements. During the Mughal era, there were plenty of texts written and advancements made in applied sciences, astronomy and engineering, not to mention military science and even rocketry. It is the same dismissive Hindutva mindset that you display which tries to send spacecraft to the moon without once acknowledging the father of Indian rocketry, Tipu Sultan of Mysore.
 
Australia's warning to Aussies travelling to India has always been for women to not travel to India, now it has been upgraded because of the protest.
 

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