Thunder Resonates as Modernization Inches Forward in Pakistan

[AMCA]

LOL the image u showed was shared by aero in the JF17 21st century tiger shark thread. The mirage 2000 is a medium class fighter if im not wrong and so is f16. Anyways the f414's thrust is even lesser then f404 as mentioned by batman so this proves everything he said.

anyways lets resume this on lca thread. Stay on topic here.

u have no idea what u just said.

Of Course I do. The Aircraft you are talking about is an Aircraft in similarity to Marut but that remained just an Idea. in the mid 80's it saw the birth of a new idea with futuristic requirements from IAF and DRDO stood up to the challenge and formed an Institution called ADA to govern the LCA Program, It was after that the govt accepted their stand to develop an LCA and by that time we were already in 1990's.

Anyways Lets Stay on TOPIC and take it to LCA thread

 

[Beast]

I think and may be I am wrong , Chinese industry had more emphasys on copy parts for rapid development. Rather start from scratch . That is the reason, they having lots of difficulties in engine production, even they are not able to produce Helicopter engine.

Please update yourself. China progress so fast that ytd new is not new anymore.

If China has problem making helo engine. Where did it make so much WZ-10?

WZ-9 turbo shaft

If WZ-9 turbo shaft is underpowered, how can WZ0-10 afford to make a 360 degree loop?

Why has China struggled so much and still not managed to develop the engine for the JF-17 Thunder?

Simple! Has PLAAF ever inducted JF-17? So do you think WS-13 is important or WS-10/WS-15/WS-20 engine more important. We are China but we are not God. There is a limit of talent working on the engine program. WS-20 already bare fruit with in flight testing. Which is for our Y-20 transporter.

WS-10 is still in service providing engine for many new type of aircraft like J-11B and J-16.

 

[Superboy]

The Block II JF-17 has improved avionics, weapons load and carriage capability, a data link and an electronic warfare suite, plus an in-flight refueling capability, but officials are reluctant to give specific details.

Correction. Block 1 already has data link and electronic warfare suite. Block 2 has enhanced versions of these as well as a new improved radar, and adds inflight refueling capability.

Your claims are absolute baseless.. Tejas was designed to be unstable delta wing fighter and has high maneuverability when compared to the JF-17. If every delta Winged fighter is a copy attempt of Mirage then you must learn to overpower your brain to express facts wisely gentleman.

How advanced is Indian aeronautics compared to the West, especially in the 1990s when Tejas was designed? China has designed fighter jets since the 1960s starting with J-8. In terms of experience, India's aeronautics lags far behind that of China. JF-17 is a newer design than Tejas, having been designed in the early 2000s. JF-17 IMO has better aeronautics than Tejas. JF-17 is the world's first fighter having DSI. Tejas still does not have this feature.

 

[Superboy]

i know JF 17 is a great plane and back bone of PAF but not a single LCA has crashed in 12 years of its inception

Tejas is way behind JF-17 in development. For starters, it's still in development. Second. JF-17 is about to have 3 squadrons equipped and is being produced at a rate of at least 18 per year, Tejas won't have its first squadron till 2017 at the earliest. Third, Tejas is still flying test planes.

 

[Sargodhian_Eagle]

i know JF 17 is a great plane and back bone of PAF but not a single LCA has crashed in 12 years of its inception

Dude, JF-17 can fly so it crashed, even F-22 was crashed but Tejas still rides on truck so it will not definitely crash.

 

[BATMAN]

We are China but we are not God. There is a limit of talent working on the engine program

Issue is the economics, and competition which is keeping ws-13 from going into mass production.
Without customer, there will be no production line... it is as simple as that.
China need to induct this engine in future a/c cannot rely totally on sales of JF-17.

 

[MastanKhan]

On a side note Kaiser Tufail is a True blood PAF/Pakistani... mien te F-sola hi lesaan.... F-16 ke agay bhai ko Chinese stealth fighters bhi doubtful capability lagh rahay hien

Hi,

Mr Tufail is a seasoned operator---he knows what the F 16 can do----as for the chinese stealth---it is all up in the air----.

Chinese stealth is way overrated---just like russian stealth aircraft. And secondly---there is no chinese stealth fighter---there are a couple of aircraft and that is it----. They maybe about 10 to 15 years away from production.

So---as a fighter jock---he has to put his bet on what is available.

there are people here who even don't know there is anything else expect F-16 called fighter jet.
well about that person I will just say purani tabidari gattay thora waqt laggay ga.. G hajoori ki bhi jaban hooti hai

Senor,

Bring out some technical aspects of what you think is superior or compatible to the 'west'.

You kids need to understand to LEARN without PREJUDICE.

 

[MilSpec]

Your claims are absolute baseless.. Tejas was designed to be unstable delta wing fighter and has high maneuverability when compared to the JF-17. If every delta Winged fighter is a copy attempt of Mirage then you must learn to overpower your brain to express facts wisely gentleman.

Educate me please on how a redesigned fighter jet can change the prospects of an Engine powering the aircraft meet the user requirements? and Besides you are wrong once again calling Kaveri just on papers when you very well know we have several prototypes of this.

Project management concepts of JF-17 if at all you have any, will not help us improve an already superior in class fighter the Tejas. We might have to rely on the west for that matter and our design engineers have better things to do than waste time on JF-17.

Tejas was never a flop.. Changing user demands kept the clock ticking and besides PAF was and is in a situation where it cannot demand but buy any low cost fighter jet to cover up its need against IAF.

No point in banging your head against the wall....

 

[Gentelman]

Senor,

Bring out some technical aspects of what you think is superior or compatible to the 'west'.

You kids need to understand to LEARN without PREJUDICE.

who claimed that there exist something comparable to west??
yeah we should go for MLUs because we can but about block 52s or 60s we have nothing to pay so we shouldn't dream.
And there are too much political negative aspects to choose F-16 even if we even have money to spare.

 

[ejaz007]

ok fair enof you might be knowing about india more than i do SIR

but having said that does it not means after bieng even late and "throwing away indian tax payers money" as many on this form make fun of LCA you cant reject the fact that in 1.06 billion dollars we achieved much needed aviation insight and knowledge and things do to and not to do in future

i know JF 17 is a great plane and back bone of PAF but not a single LCA has crashed in 12 years of its inception and since it has the largest ammount of composite material in its air frame + US engine, israeli radar EW suite and avionick, indian frilght compouters and controls , british ejection seat and many other forign made parts its still flying and is doing the job what it was made for @ a test bed for future aviation industry in india

see rome was not built in a day and LCA is also taking its own sweet time and indians are happy with whatever owr sientist have achived as after all LCA will be apoint defence fighter with limited multi role capabillity and will live all its life in shadow of big brothers of IAF

Thanks you SIR

Again JF 17 is a great fighter Plane


well thats been looked into SIR but why was he calling indian fighter "TEJA" & "Peja"

Amateurs saw delta wings of Tejas as design fail from the day one and were quick in pointing it on internet. Initially, India designers refused but when Tejas failed to meet IAF's requirement, than they started with blaming it on sabotage, continuing to US sanctions and than turned to US engine. with funny claims as 'under power engine' how can any engine be under power? its your design which describe the required power or you adjust your design to the available engine!
When Indians started this project, F404 was even less powered, where it stands today and when second engine was not enough, they turned to third (new) and even more power full US engine F-414
Anyhow, after few years of internet discussions and launch of JF-17, Indians started posting copies of future blks. of JF-17 design as Teja / LCA-2 (to cover their shame they may call it PEJA / MRCA etc.)

I do not know from where you got your figure of 90's but I quoted figures that are easily available.

Here is one link:

LCA Tejas - History: Timeline

The project starts the day it is conceived. It is up to the team to move it forward as per plan which at times does not happen.

I do wish to indulge in a war of words which one is better JF-17 or LCA but one thing that goes strongly in favor of JF-17 program is that despite all the hurdles it faced the project team managed to keep the project on planned timeline and completed it successfully. While the Tejas team with all the money and the help from around the glob failed to achieve the original project timeline.

 

[karan.1970]

Tejas is way behind JF-17 in development. For starters, it's still in development. Second. JF-17 is about to have 3 squadrons equipped and is being produced at a rate of at least 18 per year, Tejas won't have its first squadron till 2017 at the earliest. Third, Tejas is still flying test planes.

18 new JF 17's per year ?? any backup to this claim??

you have manufactured/assembled 34 planes in last 4 years.. (1st squad with 16 planes was launched in Feb 2010 and PAF has 50 planes today).. That makes it 8.5 planes every year..

 

[ejaz007]

JF-17 is a barely 4th gen fighter,but the PAF accepts it because it has neither the funds nor the option of a better,decent fighter.It may not be a good fighter but it is better than the scores of obsolete mirages and j-7s that it operates and will have to operate seemingly forever if it doesnt get its hand on an even marginally better aircraft.JF-17 is a dated design and is of the previous gen construction.Its software coding is in C++ civilian code which in itself points to the less than mediocre design and construction of the aircraft,both in its software and the actual jet.The chinese have forced its poor overpriced export version avionics and weapons systems to reduce its losses on making a 3+gen aircraft that it never intended or will induct or even look at in dire circumstances.The JF-17 is at best a J-7++ aircraft and not a 4++th gen aircraft and not even a 4th gen aircraft.
Of course to justify it the PAF projects it as an excellent 4th gen platform and the fanboys and jingos accept the excuses and worship thunder as some miraculous jet.The chinese will just provide more tid bits to pakistani fanboys to keep them in delusion of JF-17 good peformance while their country milks the pakistanis for whatever they are worth.

I do not care what you say about the qualities of JF-17 because that won't make any difference to the capabilities JF-17 has.

However I do object to your part where you suggest that Chinese milk Pakistanis. The project has not seen any major price escalation than how do you suggest we are being milked.

It would be better if you look at your own procurement. That would make you understand that how much you are constantly milked by other countries. Russians offer you free of cost aircraft carrier and then you end up paying more than 2 billion USD.

Even more interesting is the project where LCA being developed by India for India is repeatedly missing the deadlines and cost escalation is happening every day.

Now look at the MRCA competition. It started with a price tag of around 10 billion USD and even before any contract is signed the cost has gone upto around USD 18 million.

This my dear is milking and world is good at it when dealing with India.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

18 new JF 17's per year ?? any backup to this claim??

you have manufactured/assembled 34 planes in last 4 years.. (1st squad with 16 planes was launched in Feb 2010 and PAF has 50 planes today).. That makes it 8.5 planes every year..

yr the one who visits JFT thread and is still asking basic questions?

We had developed 3rd sqd since a long time but didnt announced for political reasons. Till this date we have developed 51 b1 planes because one extra was made to replace the crashed one. So now we have 50 b1 planes and serial production of b2 plane has started since december.

 

[Gentelman]

18 new JF 17's per year ?? any backup to this claim??

you have manufactured/assembled 34 planes in last 4 years.. (1st squad with 16 planes was launched in Feb 2010 and PAF has 50 planes today).. That makes it 8.5 planes every year..

you can't count cash and money deficiency in production.
you gets what you pay for and PAF got what they paid for.
assembly?? that's kinda unfair....
with 58% avionics and around 38% airframe(2011 gradually to be increase to 60%) and with radar building at home under licence you should not show such jealousy and give at least some credit rather than telling us that we assemble that plane.
well about source care surfing the JF-17 thread when you even don't have such basic knowledge about the production capacity of PAC then i don't think you should have allowed yourself you reward us with such impressive opinions.

JF-17 is a barely 4th gen fighter,but the PAF accepts it because it has neither the funds nor the option of a better,decent fighter.It may not be a good fighter but it is better than the scores of obsolete mirages and j-7s that it operates and will have to operate seemingly forever if it doesnt get its hand on an even marginally better aircraft.JF-17 is a dated design and is of the previous gen construction.Its software coding is in C++ civilian code which in itself points to the less than mediocre design and construction of the aircraft,both in its software and the actual jet.The chinese have forced its poor overpriced export version avionics and weapons systems to reduce its losses on making a 3+gen aircraft that it never intended or will induct or even look at in dire circumstances.The JF-17 is at best a J-7++ aircraft and not a 4++th gen aircraft and not even a 4th gen aircraft.
Of course to justify it the PAF projects it as an excellent 4th gen platform and the fanboys and jingos accept the excuses and worship thunder as some miraculous jet.The chinese will just provide more tid bits to pakistani fanboys to keep them in delusion of JF-17 good peformance while their country milks the pakistanis for whatever they are worth.

F-22 program if you cared to do research is written in C++ language genius.
so US don't have money and world best jet software is d graded??
outdated design huhhh??
wiyh LERX and 2nd jet in world after F-22 to have DSI its design is outdated??
never heard from anywhere else in aviation world that it's design is outdated....
and yeah a 3rd gen jet having HUD,MFDs,130km radar,IFR,mach 1.8 speed with liw IFR and ALQ-300 ECM suit of europe with 7 hard points and nuclear capable jet having capability to fire BVRs,LGBs and satellite guided bombs?? Well I never heard of such a mighty 3rd gen fighter jet genius

 

[GURU DUTT]

I do not know from where you got your figure of 90's but I quoted figures that are easily available.

Here is one link:

LCA Tejas - History: Timeline

The project starts the day it is conceived. It is up to the team to move it forward as per plan which at times does not happen.

I do wish to indulge in a war of words which one is better JF-17 or LCA but one thing that goes strongly in favor of JF-17 program is that despite all the hurdles it faced the project team managed to keep the project on planned timeline and completed it successfully. While the Tejas team with all the money and the help from around the glob failed to achieve the original project timeline.

well brother thats not a issue as LCA was never to be a frontline fighter niether the back bone(MKI is new back bone 272 on order + 40 more under considration)

now about the time line well chinese had been making fighter bombers for quite some time and had there industry mtured so it was easy for the cause JF17 was basically a Mig 21 with active design inputs from americans(they later back tracked after tainamen square massacre)

we all know that DRDO and IAF messed up the LCA project as IAF never wanted it but M2K so kept changing the goal post but that prooved to be blessing in disguise for LCA as it from a simple , cost effective numbers filler point defence fighter

which went on to become very light and compact multi role fighter jet

which has

adiquate range deu to light wieght ,

supersonik capabillity in all waether and all altitude

and has better climb rate , wepons load , all aspect 4 axis digital flight control

+ all cutting edge 4++ gen EW suites , Radar & wepons package and is compatiable to a large variety of israeli , russian and indian made wepons & israeli radar ELTA 2032 MMR (which will be replaced by LRDE made AESA in MK2)and LDP @ lightning 3

power full GE 404 engine which will be replaced by GE 414 98Kn engine in MK2 of which 99 are already on order

last but not the least its still has a very low RCS thanks to its composite air frame(70% +) and 100% in wings and it can take off from a very short runway with full load

yes it has drag issues and irritatingingly loooong research and testing time line but we are not going to war any time soon and it will remain in shadow of big boys of IAF @ M2K , M 29 , Jags & MKI

so we are not complaining while now IAF lone wants 294 of them

ya but chinese realli made great progress with there JF-17 and made it a realli interesting opponent to LCA