Thunder Resonates as Modernization Inches Forward in Pakistan

[Superboy]

Can't China license build AL-31 engines like it did with WP-13 used in J-7?

 

[BATMAN]

90's was a lost decade... in the same way 2006-2013 was lost half decade.

 

[SQ8]

We have living example of LCA. Its good study case.

The LCA is a case of being stubborn about waiting for the engine. India had the engine available to it earlier if not for its insistence to link the Kaveri to the Tejas.

Can't China license build AL-31 engines like it did with WP-13 used in J-7?

It could, but engine technology is one of those "core" components(much like avioncs) that nations are not to keen to part with it. However, China could obtain manufacturing process knowhow in some manner through licence or otherwise. That would allow it to build the engine designs it wants, as it is not engine design knowledge but manufacturing knowledge that is holding it back

 

[HAIDER]

I think and may be I am wrong , Chinese industry had more emphasys on copy parts for rapid development. Rather start from scratch . That is the reason, they having lots of difficulties in engine production, even they are not able to produce Helicopter engine.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I do not know why people quote Usman Shabbir. Lazy journalists fire a few queries at PakDef, thinking that they are talking to credible experts. Then they find a real expert like Sir AC (R) Kaisar Tufail and it seems as though they have two credible sources. Even though Sir Kaisar Tufail has been quoted for a few lines, there is a lot to be gained by what he says.

Its good to see more people talking about JF-17 Block IV. Yeah I know that it is premature, but still it feels good to hear about it - adds to the mystique of JF-17. I just wish that Pakistan could be able to integrate EJ200 onto JF-17. Also, a redesign of wing-fuselage join, increasing composites' usage, some extension of main wing, and other small changes extending the max g range to +9g, air-frame life by 30-50%, & increase of hard points should be looked at for future Block IV. That would truly make JF-17 an aircraft nobody would want to mess with. I know this is do-able. I just hope PAF develops the resources to do so by itself. I do realize that this wish-list of mine would require a few years of testing, but I think that this is definitely do-able beyond Block III.

For Block III, of course, I am assuming that we would have AESA radar, RCS reduction, better ECM, etc...

 

[Superboy]

How many planes per JF-17 squadron? And how many JF-17 has PAC built? I think China delivered some JF-17 to Pakistan before PAC began manufacturing the plane.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

even though Shabbir said the Pakistan Air Force’s Air Weapons Complex “has also developed one in collaboration with a European firm.

Very interesting!!!!!

 

[BATMAN]

LCA is a case of being stubborn about waiting for the engine

LCA is a case of airframe design fault, which they have to redesign. LCA's issue is not engine but its enormous drag.
They are looking upon various designs of JF-17.

 

[Chak Bamu]

LCA is a case of airframe design fault, which they have to redesign. LCA's issue is not engine but its enormous drag.
They are looking upon various designs of JF-17.

Why would they look at a truncated delta design with relatively high wing loading? How could that help them with LCA, that is a delta? Care to substantiate your claim with a source?

I am not saying that they are not looking at JF-17 design. It is somebody's job in Indian establishment to look at JF-17 design to find its limitations and weaknesses. I want to know how you can say this in the context in which you have placed your assertion.

 

[fatman17]

nothing new we didnt know earlier.....

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

At this time---paf is stuck with these two aircraft---the F16's---the JF17's. Even if it has the funds and money to WASTE---paf does not have the man power to spare for another new aircraft that needs to be integrated.

Even if paf wants to do so---it won't happen. PAF is too deep into JF17 program at this stage.

 

[BATMAN]

Why would they look at a truncated delta design with relatively high wing loading? How could that help them with LCA, that is a delta? Care to substantiate your claim with a source?

I am not saying that they are not looking at JF-17 design. It is somebody's job in Indian establishment to look at JF-17 design to find its limitations and weaknesses. I want to know how you can say this in the context in which you have placed your assertion.

Pages after pages of this thread and Teja thread are full of un-substantiated claims and you are not interested!..... anyhow.
Context of my reply, was the engine being the failure of Tejas project and you nitpick extra stuff.

Well, to be very clear, JF-17 thunder is cropped delta wing design with tail and ventricle fins... (as i understand)
While, prototype Tejas is a shoulder mounted, tailless cranked delta wing design.

Both were meant to be light maneuverable aircrafts, considering interceptions of low altitude with quick take off.
Amateurs saw delta wings of Tejas as design fail from the day one and were quick in pointing it on internet. Initially, India designers refused but when Tejas failed to meet IAF's requirement, than they started with blaming it on sabotage, continuing to US sanctions and than turned to US engine. with funny claims as 'under power engine' how can any engine be under power? its your design which describe the required power or you adjust your design to the available engine!
When Indians started this project, F404 was even less powered, where it stands today and when second engine was not enough, they turned to third (new) and even more power full US engine F-414
Anyhow, after few years of internet discussions and launch of JF-17, Indians started posting copies of future blks. of JF-17 design as Teja / LCA-2 (to cover their shame they may call it PEJA / MRCA etc.)
Pictures of so called LCA-2 (surprisingly a cropped delta wing!) started to appear on defence.pk, after the picture of JF-17 referred as blk-3 was released... see it in @Munir 's ever mocking avatar (stealth nose, with twin tail fins) Which is an acknowledgement of superior design of JF-17, Indian impressiveness of it and design flaws in Tejas wing design.
There is actually no room for discussion, about what lead to Tejas failure, to be precise, Tejas wings are failed copy attempt of mirrage and saab vigen.

Hence, I see resting Tejas coffin at the shoulder of its engine, is huge coverup, and blaming it on Kaveri (which exist only on paper) is even more shameless coverup, because later was even less powered engine than F-404.

I would like to add there are strong indications, that India is getting inputs from JF-17 design and its project management concept.

 

[Cyberian]

Why has China struggled so much and still not managed to develop the engine for the JF-17 Thunder?

 

[MastanKhan]

Why has China struggled so much and still not managed to develop the engine for the JF-17 Thunder?

Hi,

Once again for you---manufacturing a passenger aircraft engine is an extremely difficult task---but then building a capable fighter aircraft engine is the ultimate of engineering technology.

China has no foundations of building a high tech fighter aircraft engine. The chinese indutrial complex woke up one day and found out that all its fighter aircraft had obsolete technology. That realization came about 25-30 years ago.

They are able to come up with decent designs and electronics for the aircraft----but the engine has been the major problem.

So here is the comparison---the chinese top techonoly was building engines fo the F7 which were initially good for some 300----400 hours----30 years ago.

Now compare it to the american engine for the F16 some 25 years ago----2000 to 4000 hours.

See---it is easy to steal commercial technology----but not western fighter aircraft engine technology.

Now---just want to show you how difficult it is and it is not an insult----. The indians had all the designs and engineers and funds and everything else to build their fighter aircraft engine---and even with all that---they were not close.

How you get the info on commercial jet engine---chinese can buy any commercial civilian aircraft---they can reverse engineer it---but then the problem arises in metallurgy----the component material---the process---.

So the chinese copy will have pewrformance and qualitty issues and it will never be good as the original.

Now---as for a fighter aircraft engine---the chinese have poured a tremendous amount of money and rresources into it to make it successful.

Bottomline is---without building a successful high performance world class fighter aircraft engine---no nation can be a real superpower and none know it better than the chinese.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

On a side note Kaiser Tufail is a True blood PAF/Pakistani... mien te F-sola hi lesaan.... F-16 ke agay bhai ko Chinese stealth fighters bhi doubtful capability lagh rahay hien

Yes yr right these chaps r too much impressed with West.