Thunder Resonates as Modernization Inches Forward in Pakistan

[Gentelman]

Yes yr right these chaps r too much impressed with West.

there are people here who even don't know there is anything else expect F-16 called fighter jet.
well about that person I will just say purani tabidari gattay thora waqt laggay ga.. G hajoori ki bhi jaban hooti hai

 

[AMCA]

Pages after pages of this thread and Teja thread are full of un-substantiated claims and you are not interested!..... anyhow.
Context of my reply, was the engine being the failure of Tejas project and you nitpick extra stuff.

Well, to be very clear, JF-17 thunder is cropped delta wing design with tail and ventricle fins... (as i understand)
While, prototype Tejas is a shoulder mounted, tailless cranked delta wing design.

Both were meant to be light maneuverable aircrafts, considering interceptions of low altitude with quick take off.
Amateurs saw delta wings of Tejas as design fail from the day one and were quick in pointing it on internet. Initially, India designers refused but when Tejas failed to meet IAF's requirement, than they started with blaming it on sabotage, continuing to US sanctions and than turned to US engine. with funny claims as 'under power engine' how can any engine be under power? its your design which describe the required power or you adjust your design to the available engine!
When Indians started this project, F404 was even less powered, where it stands today and when second engine was not enough, they turned to third (new) and even more power full US engine F-414
Anyhow, after few years of internet discussions and launch of JF-17, Indians started posting copies of future blks. of JF-17 design as Teja / LCA-2 (to cover their shame they may call it PEJA / MRCA etc.)
Pictures of so called LCA-2 (surprisingly a cropped delta wing!) started to appear on defence.pk, after the picture of JF-17 referred as blk-3 was released... see it in @Munir 's ever mocking avatar (stealth nose, with twin tail fins) Which is an acknowledgement of superior design of JF-17, Indian impressiveness of it and design flaws in Tejas wing design.
There is actually no room for discussion, about what lead to Tejas failure, to be precise, Tejas wings are failed copy attempt of mirrage and saab vigen.

Hence, I see resting Tejas coffin at the shoulder of its engine, is huge coverup, and blaming it on Kaveri (which exist only on paper) is even more shameless coverup, because later was even less powered engine than F-404.

I would like to add there are strong indications, that India is getting inputs from JF-17 design and its project management concept.

Your claims are absolute baseless.. Tejas was designed to be unstable delta wing fighter and has high maneuverability when compared to the JF-17. If every delta Winged fighter is a copy attempt of Mirage then you must learn to overpower your brain to express facts wisely gentleman.

Educate me please on how a redesigned fighter jet can change the prospects of an Engine powering the aircraft meet the user requirements? and Besides you are wrong once again calling Kaveri just on papers when you very well know we have several prototypes of this.

Project management concepts of JF-17 if at all you have any, will not help us improve an already superior in class fighter the Tejas. We might have to rely on the west for that matter and our design engineers have better things to do than waste time on JF-17.

Tejas was never a flop.. Changing user demands kept the clock ticking and besides PAF was and is in a situation where it cannot demand but buy any low cost fighter jet to cover up its need against IAF.

 

[Alphacharlie]

you a

Pages after pages of this thread and Teja thread are full of un-substantiated claims and you are not interested!..... anyhow.
Context of my reply, was the engine being the failure of Tejas project and you nitpick extra stuff.

Well, to be very clear, JF-17 thunder is cropped delta wing design with tail and ventricle fins... (as i understand)
While, prototype Tejas is a shoulder mounted, tailless cranked delta wing design.

Both were meant to be light maneuverable aircrafts, considering interceptions of low altitude with quick take off.
Amateurs saw delta wings of Tejas as design fail from the day one and were quick in pointing it on internet. Initially, India designers refused but when Tejas failed to meet IAF's requirement, than they started with blaming it on sabotage, continuing to US sanctions and than turned to US engine. with funny claims as 'under power engine' how can any engine be under power? its your design which describe the required power or you adjust your design to the available engine!
When Indians started this project, F404 was even less powered, where it stands today and when second engine was not enough, they turned to third (new) and even more power full US engine F-414
Anyhow, after few years of internet discussions and launch of JF-17, Indians started posting copies of future blks. of JF-17 design as Teja / LCA-2 (to cover their shame they may call it PEJA / MRCA etc.)
Pictures of so called LCA-2 (surprisingly a cropped delta wing!) started to appear on defence.pk, after the picture of JF-17 referred as blk-3 was released... see it in @Munir 's ever mocking avatar (stealth nose, with twin tail fins) Which is an acknowledgement of superior design of JF-17, Indian impressiveness of it and design flaws in Tejas wing design.
There is actually no room for discussion, about what lead to Tejas failure, to be precise, Tejas wings are failed copy attempt of mirrage and saab vigen.

Hence, I see resting Tejas coffin at the shoulder of its engine, is huge coverup, and blaming it on Kaveri (which exist only on paper) is even more shameless coverup, because later was even less powered engine than F-404.

I would like to add there are strong indications, that India is getting inputs from JF-17 design and its project management concept.

YOUR FACTS ARE HALF WRONG.

DASSAULT WAS CONSULTANT IN LCA DESIGN.
DELTA WING WAS OUR CHOICE AS WE ARE MIGHTY PLEASED WITH MIRAGE2000

INDIAN - ADA WAS UPSET ON GE ENGINE BEING DENIED DUE TO SACNCTIONS. BUT WE WERE ALSO ADAMANT TO DEVELOP OUR OWN ENGINE.

THERE IS NOT ONE ARTCILE IN PRINT MEDIA YOU WILL FIND WERE WE ARE CRYING AND BLAMING USA. ONE RESOVOIR COMES TO A STOP SEARCH FOR SECOND STARTS.

IAF DIDNT SELECT AS IOC INCLUDES 86 TESTS - ONLY 53 WERE COMPLETED IN DEC 2011.

REMEBER TO DEVELOP A 4TH GEN A/C TAKES TIME. ADA/DRDO DOES ACCEPT THEY TOOK GOOD TIME. BUT LET ME ENLIGHTEN YOU.

1) LCA CONCEPT WAS ILLUSIONED IN 1983. BUT FUNDING ACTUALLY STARTED IN 1998.
2) DASSUALT SUBMITTED THEIR DESIGN BLUE PRINT IN 1996
3) TO MAKE A JET AFTER MARUT, IT TOOK 20 YEARS. ALL KNOWLEGE WAS LOST.
4) HAVE YOU EVEN VISTED A WIND TUNNEL, LIKE ONE IN BANGALORE AT ASTE. IF YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN A WIND TUNNEL & TEST PLAQUETTE.
5) TO COMPLETE WIND TUNNEL TEST YOU NEED ATLEAST 3-5 YEARS
6) WHO WILL GIVE YOU KNOWLEDGE & EXPERIENCE FOR FREE, IT COMES FROM TRIAL & ERROR.

SON - IT IS EASY TO THROW STONES, BUT DIFFICULT TO FIND DIAMONDS.

 

[Kompromat]

@Alphacharlie

Stop writting in block letters

 

[GURU DUTT]

Pages after pages of this thread and Teja thread are full of un-substantiated claims and you are not interested!..... anyhow.
Context of my reply, was the engine being the failure of Tejas project and you nitpick extra stuff.

Well, to be very clear, JF-17 thunder is cropped delta wing design with tail and ventricle fins... (as i understand)
While, prototype Tejas is a shoulder mounted, tailless cranked delta wing design.

Both were meant to be light maneuverable aircrafts, considering interceptions of low altitude with quick take off.
Amateurs saw delta wings of Tejas as design fail from the day one and were quick in pointing it on internet. Initially, India designers refused but when Tejas failed to meet IAF's requirement, than they started with blaming it on sabotage, continuing to US sanctions and than turned to US engine. with funny claims as 'under power engine' how can any engine be under power? its your design which describe the required power or you adjust your design to the available engine!
When Indians started this project, F404 was even less powered, where it stands today and when second engine was not enough, they turned to third (new) and even more power full US engine F-414
Anyhow, after few years of internet discussions and launch of JF-17, Indians started posting copies of future blks. of JF-17 design as Teja / LCA-2 (to cover their shame they may call it PEJA / MRCA etc.)
Pictures of so called LCA-2 (surprisingly a cropped delta wing!) started to appear on defence.pk, after the picture of JF-17 referred as blk-3 was released... see it in @Munir 's ever mocking avatar (stealth nose, with twin tail fins) Which is an acknowledgement of superior design of JF-17, Indian impressiveness of it and design flaws in Tejas wing design.
There is actually no room for discussion, about what lead to Tejas failure, to be precise, Tejas wings are failed copy attempt of mirrage and saab vigen.

Hence, I see resting Tejas coffin at the shoulder of its engine, is huge coverup, and blaming it on Kaveri (which exist only on paper) is even more shameless coverup, because later was even less powered engine than F-404.

I would like to add there are strong indications, that India is getting inputs from JF-17 design and its project management concept.

Sir dont forget that your an elite member

being a Muhib Ul Watan is good but that dosent mean you can make fun of others hard work when your nation is relying and waiting for chinese to make JF17 Blk 2-3-XYZ

now about the Tejas
1.it is the smallest and lightest fighter in its catogorry
http://i.imgur.com/ipByPzz.jpg

2.it can take of from a very short run way with full load and can land at small runways aswell
3.russian heat seaking WVRs, dump bombs , LGBs are tested on it in all weather and all alltitude situations
4. it was officially started in 1998 when it got first grants from indian govt and flew for the first time in 2001 and got its IOC2 in winter of 2013 while it has onli costed 1.06 billion $s(whole project)
5.Indian made ASEA by LRDE & GE 414 98Kn(99 already bought) engine will be integrated in MK2 while kaveri is going on track sure its late but knowledge gained from the project is priceless
6.MMR is integrated
ASEA made by LRDE for LCA MK2 it has 130 TERM modules with 8 Tr modules each (liquid cooled & very compact)

 

[ejaz007]

4. it was officially started in 1998 when it got first grants from indian govt and flew for the first time in 2001 and got its IOC2 in winter of 2013 while it has onli costed 1.06 billion $s(whole project)

LCA program was started in 1983.

Your cost estimates are also wrong. Perhaps Tejas engine alone would cost that much.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

DASSAULT WAS CONSULTANT IN LCA DESIGN.
DELTA WING WAS OUR CHOICE AS WE ARE MIGHTY PLEASED WITH MIRAGE2000

I.

that was all i could read.

the design was finalized for teja in 69. Way before mirage 2000 but it rather resembles 80% atleast of mirage 3/5.

LCA program was started in 1983.

Your cost estimates are also wrong. Perhaps Tejas engine alone would cost that much.

not not in 83 but way back then it. Just after merut a/c they started work on LCA project. its design was finalized in 69.

 

[Gentelman]

Your claims are absolute baseless.. Tejas was designed to be unstable delta wing fighter and has high maneuverability when compared to the JF-17. If every delta Winged fighter is a copy attempt of Mirage then you must learn to overpower your brain to express facts wisely gentleman.

Educate me please on how a redesigned fighter jet can change the prospects of an Engine powering the aircraft meet the user requirements? and Besides you are wrong once again calling Kaveri just on papers when you very well know we have several prototypes of this.

Project management concepts of JF-17 if at all you have any, will not help us improve an already superior in class fighter the Tejas. We might have to rely on the west for that matter and our design engineers have better things to do than waste time on JF-17.

Tejas was never a flop.. Changing user demands kept the clock ticking and besides PAF was and is in a situation where it cannot demand but buy any low cost fighter jet to cover up its need against IAF.

he just said drag of LCA was un believable

 

[Umair Nawaz]

lol Mr Patriotic RSS member this image was shared by one of the mod of defence.pk and even he didnt claimed it to be lightest and shortest in its category nor in this list it is being compared with light class fighters. F16 in medium class.

@Aeronaut.

 

[GURU DUTT]

LCA program was started in 1983.

Your cost estimates are also wrong. Perhaps Tejas engine alone would cost that much.

ok fair enof you might be knowing about india more than i do SIR

but having said that does it not means after bieng even late and "throwing away indian tax payers money" as many on this form make fun of LCA you cant reject the fact that in 1.06 billion dollars we achieved much needed aviation insight and knowledge and things do to and not to do in future

i know JF 17 is a great plane and back bone of PAF but not a single LCA has crashed in 12 years of its inception and since it has the largest ammount of composite material in its air frame + US engine, israeli radar EW suite and avionick, indian frilght compouters and controls , british ejection seat and many other forign made parts its still flying and is doing the job what it was made for @ a test bed for future aviation industry in india

see rome was not built in a day and LCA is also taking its own sweet time and indians are happy with whatever owr sientist have achived as after all LCA will be apoint defence fighter with limited multi role capabillity and will live all its life in shadow of big brothers of IAF

Thanks you SIR

Again JF 17 is a great fighter Plane

he just said drag of LCA was un believable

well thats been looked into SIR but why was he calling indian fighter "TEJA" & "Peja"

Amateurs saw delta wings of Tejas as design fail from the day one and were quick in pointing it on internet. Initially, India designers refused but when Tejas failed to meet IAF's requirement, than they started with blaming it on sabotage, continuing to US sanctions and than turned to US engine. with funny claims as 'under power engine' how can any engine be under power? its your design which describe the required power or you adjust your design to the available engine!
When Indians started this project, F404 was even less powered, where it stands today and when second engine was not enough, they turned to third (new) and even more power full US engine F-414
Anyhow, after few years of internet discussions and launch of JF-17, Indians started posting copies of future blks. of JF-17 design as Teja / LCA-2 (to cover their shame they may call it PEJA / MRCA etc.)

 

[AMCA]

that was all i could read.

the design was finalized for teja in 69. Way before mirage 2000 but it rather resembles 80% atleast of mirage 3/5.


not not in 83 but way back then it. Just after merut a/c they started work on LCA project. its design was finalized in 69.

LCA design was finalized in 1969?? It was finalized in Mid 1990's dude.. the project was by itself started in 90's..

he just said drag of LCA was un believable

I am just saying he is baseless in his claim..

 

[GURU DUTT]

lol Mr Patriotic RSS member this image was shared by one of the mod of defence.pk and even he didnt claimed it to be lightest and shortest in its category nor in this list it is being compared with light class fighters. F16 in medium class.

@Aeronaut.

gues what it was about tiger sark which was shelved because of F16 and the other plane in list is M2K and guess what india has both M2K and LCA so we know the differneces , shortcomings and strenths of so called "unbelivable drag problem of LCAs delta wing"

so my brother i say again Muhib ul watan dosent mean one should make fun of "others hard work" it is to be humble and respectfull cause onli weak shout and make fun of there opponents while the strong keep quite and keep on building on there streanths and improoving on there weaknesses

and thats the real story behind the never ending "testing and research work on LCA"

ope you got my point SIR ... Thanks

 

[Kompromat]

Keep the LCA out of this thread.

First and Final call.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

gues what it was about tiger sark which was shelved because of F16 and the other plane in list is M2K and guess what india has both M2K and LCA so we know the differneces , shortcomings and strenths of so called "unbelivable drag problem of LCAs delta wing"

so my brother i say again Muhib ul watan dosent mean one should make fun of "others hard work" it is to be humble and respectfull cause onli weak shout and make fun of there opponents while the strong keep quite and keep on building on there streanths and improoving on there weaknesses

and thats the real story behind the never ending "testing and research work on LCA"

ope you got my point SIR ... Thanks

LOL the image u showed was shared by aero in the JF17 21st century tiger shark thread. The mirage 2000 is a medium class fighter if im not wrong and so is f16. Anyways the f414's thrust is even lesser then f404 as mentioned by batman so this proves everything he said.

anyways lets resume this on lca thread. Stay on topic here.

LCA design was finalized in 1969?? It was finalized in Mid 1990's dude.. the project was by itself started in 90's..



..

u have no idea what u just said.

 

[GURU DUTT]

.

anyways lets resume this on lca thread. Stay on topic here.
.

thats better just dont provoke other and make fun of there hard work when you yourself are not perfect .. peace