Three Indigenous Aircraft Carriers being built at the Cochin Shipyard

[gowthamraj]

is india give order for IAC-2? pls somebody enlighten me

 

[Veer]

Will he? He will get AW 101 helicopter instead of Sikorsky S92 helicopter right?
I agree that F18SH will have a good chance, mainly because of political advantages, but the final offer will decide who will win. This competition is simply too big to give it away, just because of political reasons don't you think?

It does not matters what u and me think, only MMS matters.

As for AW 101 heli yaar don't behave as u don't know.

1. They have to give peanuts to some before offering big prize to USA.

2. The AW 101 heli deal was vetoed by security agencies RAW, SPG etc. as u can't have all the eggs in a single basket and CIA is infamous for u already know for what. So, why take chances with President, PM's and VVIPs security.

 

[DMLA]

I didn't say its a bad fighter, but you always have too keep in mind the alternatives that we have and with Pak Fa/FGFA we will get similar NG techs.
F35 is now priced at $160-200 millions, Pak Fa expected between $80-100, Rafale at $90, F18SH at $70, so we could buy the Pak Fa/MMRCA combo for nearly the costs of one F35. Doubtful that F35 can give any advantage that these combo won't give right?

Well there are two issues here which need to be dealt with. The first is "if" FGFA or pakfa will get a STOVL version. I have my doubts.

The second is the "expected" price and the actual price are quite different. There is no guarantee that FGFA will stay at 100 million. That way F-35 was expected to be close to 50 million!!!

I personally feel a STOVL aircraft gives the navy an undeniable edge/ flexibility of operations be it the carriers, LHD's, small roads, etc! With the navy having operated the harriers, it is but logical that they are showing interest in the bird.

 

[xman]

fullstory

Navy's hunt for new carrier-operated fighters begins

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Share Print E-mail Comment[ - ] Text [ + ]STAFF WRITER 9:32 HRS IST
New Delhi, Nov 29 (PTI) The Navy has launched a hunt for a new set of fighter jets to operate from the aircraft carriers it will have in service five to six years from now.

Navy sources said here today that the force has issued a Request for Information (RFI) to global aviation majors, including American Boeing, Russian MiG and French D'Assault, ahead of issuing a tender for the aircraft.

Though the RFI is of a 'generic' nature, it could ultimately lead to a tender (or Request for Proposal) and the initial requirement would be for 16 aircraft with provision for follow-up orders of up to 40 aircraft, sources said.

wont these aircrafts would go outdated in next 15 years, because I am sure stealth technology will rule the skies.

 

[Trichy]

wont these aircrafts would go outdated in next 15 years, because I am sure stealth technology will rule the skies.

no not in 15 years... the home states is not fullfill their needs in 15 years time in 5th Gen. fighters, like

F-35 --> US needs 2000+

PAKFA --> Russia 250+ (from 2015 onwards)

FGFA --> India 250 (From 2017/18 onwards)

J-XX --> China ??? (From 2017-20 onwards)

calculate 15 years from now are they finish theirs and ready to export ??? even it happen how much nations buys it???

 

[sancho]

1. They have to give peanuts to some before offering big prize to USA.

That is exactly what I think, only in the opposite direction! With P8I, C130, new howitzers, most likely C17, Apache and Chinook helicopters and maybe even KC 767 tankers, we give more than peanuts to the US! That's why imo the MMRCA can only go to one of the European contenders, otherwise we would only change the dependance from Russia, to a dependance on the US.

Well there are two issues here which need to be dealt with. The first is "if" FGFA or pakfa will get a STOVL version. I have my doubts.

The second is the "expected" price and the actual price are quite different. There is no guarantee that FGFA will stay at 100 million. That way F-35 was expected to be close to 50 million!!!

I personally feel a STOVL aircraft gives the navy an undeniable edge/ flexibility of operations be it the carriers, LHD's, small roads, etc! With the navy having operated the harriers, it is but logical that they are showing interest in the bird.

STOVL? The new RFI for carrier fighters by all reports is for F35 C, the CATOBAR version of the F35.
F35 B could be used from our STOBAR carriers too, but they will only be available for IN by 2017 or later, so these are not an option. Also these carriers are meant mainly for sea control around our costal areas and even cheap Mig 29K and to some extend N-LCA will be useful enough for this role.
That's correct, there is no guarantee that Pak Fa / FGFA will remain at $80 - 100 million, but it is way more likely isn't it?
The F35 is a complete new development, including all techs, whereas Pak Fa use the base techs of the latest Flankers and improved versions (AL31 to AL41 engine, 011/035 PESA radar to 050 AESA, OLS 30/35 to OLS50...), that combined with the lower production costs in Russia and India explains why comparable fighters are less costly. Even if it gets similar in price with the F35, it would be still better because it will offer high commonality to IAF in logistics and maintenance.

 

[DMLA]

That is exactly what I think, only in the opposite direction! With P8I, C130, new howitzers, most likely C17, Apache and Chinook helicopters and maybe even KC 767 tankers, we give more than peanuts to the US! That's why imo the MMRCA can only go to one of the European contenders, otherwise we would only change the dependance from Russia, to a dependance on the US.

STOVL? The new RFI for carrier fighters by all reports is for F35 C, the CATOBAR version of the F35.
F35 B could be used from our STOBAR carriers too, but they will only be available for IN by 2017 or later, so these are not an option. Also these carriers are meant mainly for sea control around our costal areas and even cheap Mig 29K and to some extend N-LCA will be useful enough for this role.
That's correct, there is no guarantee that Pak Fa / FGFA will remain at $80 - 100 million, but it is way more likely isn't it?
The F35 is a complete new development, including all techs, whereas Pak Fa use the base techs of the latest Flankers and improved versions (AL31 to AL41 engine, 011/035 PESA radar to 050 AESA, OLS 30/35 to OLS50...), that combined with the lower production costs in Russia and India explains why comparable fighters are less costly. Even if it gets similar in price with the F35, it would be still better because it will offer high commonality to IAF in logistics and maintenance.

I am not talking about the RFI. We all know that IN is just fishing in the dark at this stage. I was trying to say that the STOVL version will be invaluable for IN. The fact that these birds can be used from large number of IN surface ships makes this a very valuable asset. Imagine the flexibility in operations when you know you need not return to the carrier but any ship with a big enough landing pad (read LPD/LHD's) will do!

The technologies wrt pakfa are nowhere near mature. With the euphoria surrounding the first flight now ebbing, it is but obvious that most of the technologies are still in the development stage (read engine/ radar etc). To add on, HAL will require huge investment to create adequate infrastructure just to manufacture the AESA T/R modules not to metion other technologies. You can imagine how expensive it can get. Moreover, the number quoted ($100 million) is without the R&D costs which if considered at 50-50 comes out to be close to $5 billion increasing the potential (250) aircraft price to $120 million. Also, the number quoted are at 2010 $ value and should increase significantly by 2017. We should remember that PAKFA is not going to materialize anytime before 2020 (for IN if at all) and thus F-35 is the only option considering PLAN "plans"!!

 

[sudhir007]

I don’t understand why IN issue the new rfp for mmca. as per latest news IN order additional 29 more Mig-29k. India existing order 16 Mig-29k so the total no = 45. IN want 2 sqn. of NLCA around 40. so navy have total 4sqn. next 5yr we have 2 new AC both have total capacity of around 40 plane so it mean 40 is in space or shoe base operation. At the time when new IAC-2 come may be we have MCA or FGFA both are in locally built and manufacturing by India it may less costly and more powerful coze they have latest technology and more stealth then current order. So I don’t think we now need any fighter.
But yah may be India secretly sign deal with Royal navy for QE class A/C then we need these plane ??????

 

[DMLA]

of NLCA around 40

That's actually in limbo with the N-LCA going nowhere (lockheed still hasn't got the necessary clearance if i am not mistaken). It would seem that the first prototype is still months away. IN's order for mig-29's is a clear signal that it does not feel it would get the said aircrafts from HAL in time for the new carrier. Thus it is possible that IN might just take 12-16 LCA's (two seat) versions (as has been reported recently that the N-LCA prototype will be twin seater initially). This would provide IN with supersonic trainers/ fighters but allow IN to progress on to fifth generation aircrafts for future AC's!

 

[sancho]

I am not talking about the RFI. We all know that IN is just fishing in the dark at this stage. I was trying to say that the STOVL version will be invaluable for IN. The fact that these birds can be used from large number of IN surface ships makes this a very valuable asset. Imagine the flexibility in operations when you know you need not return to the carrier but any ship with a big enough landing pad (read LPD/LHD's) will do!
But are also way more limited than the C version in internal weapon load and fuel!
We should remember that PAKFA is not going to materialize anytime before 2020 (for IN if at all)

So are our bigger carriers, 2018 or later and that's why I said going for naval MMRCAs is the best choice till the naval Pak Fa will be ready.

I don’t understand why IN issue the new rfp for mmca. as per latest news IN order additional 29 more Mig-29k. India existing order 16 Mig-29k so the total no = 45. IN want 2 sqn. of NLCA around 40. so navy have total 4sqn. next 5yr we have 2 new AC both have total capacity of around 40 plane so it mean 40 is in space or shoe base operation. At the time when new IAC-2 come may be we have MCA or FGFA both are in locally built and manufacturing by India it may less costly and more powerful coze they have latest technology and more stealth then current order. So I don’t think we now need any fighter.
But yah may be India secretly sign deal with Royal navy for QE class A/C then we need these plane ??????

40 N-LCA are more than unlikely, only 6 are ordered so far and even they will come delayed, because they will have LCA MK2 techs and engine, which are still undecided.
Gorshkov and IAC1 will only carry 30 aircrafts, which includes helicopters too (most likely 16 migs, 6 N-LCAs, 3 Ka 31 AEW and 5 naval helicopters with ASW capability). The new RFI is for fighters that could serve on bigger carriers in the similar class of the Queen Elizabeth carriers which carries around 40 fighters + additional helicopters (depending on deck layout) and these carriers should arrive from 2018 on. Naval Pak Fa could be ready around that time, naval FGFA will take longer and MCA will come only around 2025, so there is a need for proven and ready fighters by 2018.
The question is will 4+ MMRCA fighters will be enough, or does IN has to go with F35C?

 

[DMLA]

Well if commonality is an issue and IN does go for the F-35C's then F-35B's will be logical. We also need to consider the considerable pressure on India from the US. It would seem that LM is trying to hard sell E-2D's and dictating IN's future carrier plans in the wake. God knows what's going on in the background!!

 

[sudhir007]

So are our bigger carriers, 2018 or later and that's why I said going for naval MMRCAs is the best choice till the naval Pak Fa will be ready.

40 N-LCA are more than unlikely, only 6 are ordered so far and even they will come delayed, because they will have LCA MK2 techs and engine, which are still undecided.
Gorshkov and IAC1 will only carry 30 aircrafts, which includes helicopters too (most likely 16 migs, 6 N-LCAs, 3 Ka 31 AEW and 5 naval helicopters with ASW capability). The new RFI is for fighters that could serve on bigger carriers in the similar class of the Queen Elizabeth carriers which carries around 40 fighters + additional helicopters (depending on deck layout) and these carriers should arrive from 2018 on. Naval Pak Fa could be ready around that time, naval FGFA will take longer and MCA will come only around 2025, so there is a need for proven and ready fighters by 2018.
The question is will 4+ MMRCA fighters will be enough, or does IN has to go with F35C?

if i agree with you then we have around 45 Mig-29k for both Gorshkov and IAC1 it is enough for both if NLCA got delay one or two yr. i dnt think we get the IAC2 at 2018 coze making delay is our nationalisam in anycase builting in house or purchasing outside. i dnt think it will come at around 2020-2022 at that time FGFA ready for serve navy. may be if navy want it easily getting F-35c or rafale M at that time. reading some of the rfp and news we order and get these plane within three yr if Navy think they can order at that time (I mean if the IAC-2 ready at 2020 they can order around 2016-2017)
and also f-35c varrient already delay it can not come before 2017 and did you think US marine need 400 such plane so we dnt get before 2020 and may ..........

 

[sancho]

if i agree with you then we have around 45 Mig-29k for both Gorshkov and IAC1 it is enough for both if NLCA got delay one or two yr. i dnt think we get the IAC2 at 2018 coze making delay is our nationalisam in anycase builting in house or purchasing outside. i dnt think it will come at around 2020-2022 at that time FGFA ready for serve navy. may be if navy want it easily getting F-35c or rafale M at that time. reading some of the rfp and news we order and get these plane within three yr if Navy think they can order at that time (I mean if the IAC-2 ready at 2020 they can order around 2016-2017)
and also f-35c varrient already delay it can not come before 2017 and did you think US marine need 400 such plane so we dnt get before 2020 and may ..........

I agree on that, but all reports of IAC1 sounds it will come on time, so lets hope for the best!
However, I think IN is just checking what options they have. If the carrier will be ready before naval Pak Fa is ready, naval MMRCAs and F35 C are alternatives and they have to see which one could be procured, before deciding the deck layout of the bigger carriers. Any naval MMRCA could come pretty fast, only F35 and naval Pak Fa could mean delays and IN have to keep these things in mind too.

 

[sudhir007]

I agree on that, but all reports of IAC1 sounds it will come on time, so lets hope for the best! However, I think IN is just checking what options they have. If the carrier will be ready before naval Pak Fa is ready, naval MMRCAs and F35 C are alternatives and they have to see which one could be procured, before deciding the deck layout of the bigger carriers. Any naval MMRCA could come pretty fast, only F35 and naval Pak Fa could mean delays and IN have to keep these things in mind too.

you know better then me that IAC1 already 2-3yr delay it has to come at end of 2012. Ok i hope that IAC-2 come without delay but you know it is different design then IAC1 coze it is bigger so navy need to rework on the design(all our project mainly delay in design work you can see from Destroyers(project15B start in 2003 although it is updated verson of delhi class), Frigates(project-17 start in 2001 does not complete yet) to Corvettes(project-28 start in 2005) ).
In this point you may agree with me there is no point to purchase f-18 coze it is already past it life and 25yr old plane so only one plane remain in the rfp it is rafale (i dnt count naval verson Gripen). rafale(does not have stealth technology) come at the cost of more then 100million doller and it is 4++ gen. fighter plane when we get ready our IAC2 5th gen. plane come in mkt. at the same or may be little bit differnet of prize. so why we purchase old technology (if we later update rafale it may costly same as mirage-2000)

 

[sancho]

In this point you may agree with me there is no point to purchase f-18 coze it is already past it life and 25yr old plane so only one plane remain in the rfp it is rafale (i dnt count naval verson Gripen). rafale(does not have stealth technology) come at the cost of more then 100million doller and it is 4++ gen. fighter plane when we get ready our IAC2 5th gen. plane come in mkt. at the same or may be little bit differnet of prize. so why we purchase old technology (if we later update rafale it may costly same as mirage-2000)

Agree, I also only see Rafale, or F35 as only possible options by the time. Rafale costs less than $100 million, especially if we combine the deal with MMRCA and can licence produce most of its parts in India.
If IN wants an indigenous fighter, or at least co-developed, they will clearly go for N-Pak Fa, but till that might be ready, they will need a proven and good fighter for the mean time and that can only be Rafale. Actually they are doing the same now too! Initial plans was to have numbers of N-LCA for IAC1, but the delays will need an additional order of Mig 29Ks now.
As I said, I don't say F35 is a bad fighter, especially the C version could be very good with the US weapon pack. But with 5. gen N-Pak Fa for air superiority and special strikes, a 4+ fighter would be a good addition. Keep in mind that even US navy will not only go for F35 C, but will keep some F18SHs on their carriers too!