Three Indigenous Aircraft Carriers being built at the Cochin Shipyard

[sudhir007]

Agree, I also only see Rafale, or F35 as only possible options by the time. Rafale costs less than $100 million, especially if we combine the deal with MMRCA and can licence produce most of its parts in India.
If IN wants an indigenous fighter, or at least co-developed, they will clearly go for N-Pak Fa, but till that might be ready, they will need a proven and good fighter for the mean time and that can only be Rafale. Actually they are doing the same now too! Initial plans was to have numbers of N-LCA for IAC1, but the delays will need an additional order of Mig 29Ks now.
As I said, I don't say F35 is a bad fighter, especially the C version could be very good with the US weapon pack. But with 5. gen N-Pak Fa for air superiority and special strikes, a 4+ fighter would be a good addition. Keep in mind that even US navy will not only go for F35 C, but will keep some F18SHs on their carriers too!

ok but if we go as per your calculation it will more costly NLCA(2sdn.), MIG-29(45 both order), MRCA(40 pcs), and NFGFA(dn't no how we need that plane). if you see total no. 6 sqn to mentain these different plane for three type logistic other spear parts and other thing. it too expansive.

 

[sancho]

ok but if we go as per your calculation it will more costly NLCA(2sdn.), MIG-29(45 both order), MRCA(40 pcs), and NFGFA(dn't no how we need that plane). if you see total no. 6 sqn to mentain these different plane for three type logistic other spear parts and other thing. it too expansive.

I don't see 2 squads of N-LCA coming, because they are simply not capable enough and delayed too. The additional order of Migs will reduce N-LCA orders to a maximum of 1 squad, if at all.
Regarding the costs, having LCA, Mig 29, MMRCA and FGFA in IAF and using the same fighters in IN would mean high commonality. So if we go for F35C instead and buy spares, or weapons for a single type of fighter only, it of course increases the costs.
However, one of the biggest problems for F35 to any Indian force would be the maintenance, because the US don't allow us to do it on our own. That's what Israel is angry about too, if they buy F35 they have to send them most likely to Italy, where the main maintenance hub in Europe will be. This of course is not acceptable for India too, because it increases costs and makes us more dependend on others.

 

[Dash]

I don't see 2 squads of N-LCA coming, because they are simply not capable enough and delayed too. The additional order of Migs will reduce N-LCA orders to a maximum of 1 squad, if at all.
Regarding the costs, having LCA, Mig 29, MMRCA and FGFA in IAF and using the same fighters in IN would mean high commonality. So if we go for F35C instead and buy spares, or weapons for a single type of fighter only, it of course increases the costs.
However, one of the biggest problems for F35 to any Indian force would be the maintenance, because the US don't allow us to do it on our own. That's what Israel is angry about too, if they buy F35 they have to send them most likely to Italy, where the main maintenance hub in Europe will be. This of course is not acceptable for India too, because it increases costs and makes us more dependend on others.

However let me ask you a question.
if IN is ordering close to 45 Mig 29, it can be said that at least a 30 will be in INS vikramaditya? coz thats what is max capacity. If IN has already sent RFI for conventional aircraft then its sure that they will go for a conventional AC which is not coming at least until 2020.
Did they already project that the process will take 10 years?.
Ok leav that aside...Lets say IAC will also need 40 aircrafts.
Doesnt that mean that they are still short of airctarft by then if they consider only Mig29s. So naval LCA is the one they must be counting on to arrive at that time.
Because at any cost these conventional aircraft the RFI is issued for can no way operate from IAC..
So here comes the question... There is a possibility of operating 2 squadrons of NLCA is what i see...

Please feel free to comment.

 

[sudhir007]

However let me ask you a question.
if IN is ordering close to 45 Mig 29, it can be said that at least a 30 will be in INS vikramaditya? coz thats what is max capacity.

Vikramaditya has full capacity of 30 plane include ASW, utilty & support helicopter. you have to run with mix of these plane maximum you run only 20(plane)+10(heli). at a time we need max. 20 not 30.

If IN has already sent RFI for conventional aircraft then its sure that they will go for a conventional AC which is not coming at least until 2020.

yes at that point i agree with you as for the information it will close to 65000T QE class but may be india go for nuk. also coze we have the technology to built nuk power a/c. as per the statement giving by chairmen of Atomic Energy Anil Kakodkar. I m talking about IAC2 not IAC1.

Did they already project that the process will take 10 years?.

minimum 7-8 yr.

Ok leav that aside...Lets say IAC will also need 40 aircrafts.
Doesnt that mean that they are still short of airctarft by then if they consider only Mig29s. So naval LCA is the one they must be counting on to arrive at that time.
Because at any cost these conventional aircraft the RFI is issued for can no way operate from IAC..
So here comes the question... There is a possibility of operating 2 squadrons of NLCA is what i see...

Dnt understand which IAC you are talking abt coze IAC1 aready built in CS and commission at 2013-2014. with the max. capacity of around same as Vikramaditya has. and IAC2 which already is in design phase project may start at 2010-2011 when the Ist IAC launched.

 

[Dash]

Vikramaditya has full capacity of 30 plane include ASW, utilty & support helicopter. you have to run with mix of these plane maximum you run only 20(plane)+10(heli). at a time we need max. 20 not 30.



yes at that point i agree with you as for the information it will close to 65000T QE class but may be india go for nuk. also coze we have the technology to built nuk power a/c. as per the statement giving by chairmen of Atomic Energy Anil Kakodkar. I m talking about IAC2 not IAC1.

minimum 7-8 yr.


Dnt understand which IAC you are talking abt coze IAC1 aready built in CS and commission at 2013-2014. with the max. capacity of around same as Vikramaditya has. and IAC2 which already is in design phase project may start at 2010-2011 when the Ist IAC launched.

Sorry I got it wrong for Goroshkov.

Now that INS vikramaditya and IAC 1 have a total fixed wing strength of 20+30(given 40 for IAC1). so that should more or less sort the equation of 45 Mig 29K.

Now with this fact I wonder that why IN at first place went for a 45000 carrier with 20 fixed wing capacity and didnt build IAC1 which is almost 40000 ton but with 30 fixed wing planes.

Now even they want 1 squadron of NLCA or 2. The question is they will not be flying from Gorky or IAC1 coz 45 jets will be for these two is what i belive.

As far as the RFI is concerned and if the RFI is for the second IAC. Then where will the NLCA will fit.

As far as I see its not at all feasible to even operate a single squadron of NLCA.
Looks like this RFI will actually kill the NLCA program and post they get these planes (like F-18/rafale etc) they will start playing with NLCA like IAF played for years....

Any one any light on this?

 

[jha]

NLCA is just for supplement role..it seems....anyways it is better to have NLCA for GORKY and IAC-1 only..because since IAC-2 is supposed to be bigger and with CATOBAR ( hopefully EMALs) only NFGFA and F-35 would be better fit...plus we should not forget IN does need fighters for purposes other than carriers...why do you think their target is to eventually have ~150 fighter aircrafts...probably some strips in ANDAMAN and in GOA are in the pipeline like INS HANSA...

 

[Nihat]

Vikramaditya has full capacity of 30 plane include ASW, utilty & support helicopter. you have to run with mix of these plane maximum you run only 20(plane)+10(heli). at a time we need max. 20 not 30.


yes at that point i agree with you as for the information it will close to 65000T QE class but may be india go for nuk. also coze we have the technology to built nuk power a/c. as per the statement giving by chairmen of Atomic Energy Anil Kakodkar. I m talking about IAC2 not IAC1.

minimum 7-8 yr.


Dnt understand which IAC you are talking abt coze IAC1 aready built in CS and commission at 2013-2014. with the max. capacity of around same as Vikramaditya has. and IAC2 which already is in design phase project may start at 2010-2011 when the Ist IAC launched.

Where did you get that info from , Vikramaditya has a capacity for 16 planes (12 Mig 29k and 4 Mig 29 K UB) + 10 helicopter. It does not have any added capacity as it is not designed to have a lower deck capable of holding aircrafts as it was not originally intended to be an AC.

IAC 1 has a capacity of 30 jets of which 10 will be in 2nd deck.

 

[DMLA]

Now even they want 1 squadron of NLCA or 2.

As you rightly point out in your subsequent arguments, NLCA has no place in IN today and that is very much the case. And please understand that this has nothing to do with the navy. The navy requires to place the order now in order to have the jets in time for IAC induction. Thus we are seeing additional mig orders. NLCA will in all likelihood turn out as trainers as I had pointed out in an earlier post in this thread. It is also important to understand that we should not expect more than 5-6 NLCA's for the navy. However, additional aircrafts may not be a bad idea as twin seater NLCA's (same as the one currently under construction) can add up as valuable training and combat (if needed) aircrafts and 1 or 2 squadrons (eventually) may happen specially if DRDO is able to sell the CAT argument to the navy.

(PS: it is highly unlikely though. The fact that IAF did not buy the CAT logic should give us an indicator in this regard)

 

[sancho]

Sorry I got it wrong for Goroshkov.

Now that INS vikramaditya and IAC 1 have a total fixed wing strength of 20+30(given 40 for IAC1). so that should more or less sort the equation of 45 Mig 29K.

Now with this fact I wonder that why IN at first place went for a 45000 carrier with 20 fixed wing capacity and didnt build IAC1 which is almost 40000 ton but with 30 fixed wing planes.

Now even they want 1 squadron of NLCA or 2. The question is they will not be flying from Gorky or IAC1 coz 45 jets will be for these two is what i belive.

First of all, Gorshkov was planed as a fast replacement for ageing INS Virrat, but now we know it was the wrong decision, because the redesign was way too complex and upgrading Virrat and replace it with IAC1 would have been the better way. However, a cancelation would be too costly now and at least we can say, we will have 2 new carriers by 2015.
The correct numbers of aircrafts that can be deployed on the carriers is not clear yet, but 30 is the number that is quoted the most for both carriers, so it could look like this:
16 x Mig 29K/KUB, 6 x N-LCA, 3 x Ka31 AEW and 5 x naval helicopters with ASW capability.
You are mistaken if you think all 45 Migs will be used on both carriers, because some of them might only be used as trainers, or simply are reserve fighters, so there still will be room for N-LCAs although I don't know for what role.
The original plan of IN could have been to use N-LCA as the main fighter on IAC1, that's why older reports claim they want 40 fighters, or 2 squads, but with all the delays it could end up with only one squad for both carriers. The bigger carriers that are planed for 2017 and beyond, will be more capable and also will have latest fighters. N-LCA definitely don't belong in that category!

 

[manish123]

These useless and lying people have not even finished the INS trishul while throwing different paper models of aircraft carriers. What a bunch of hypocrites and liars.

 

[Dash]

Got what you saying, however I dont know if its a feasible idea to operate different fighters on a single carrier.
I am sure there must be some compatibility in terms of feasible operation of two fighters and NLCA is not in the latest fighter catagory if they want to operate NLCA with others....
The bottom line is then, nothing is clear at this moment.

We can say IN has no plan for NLCA at the moment or they have a very solid plan.
But being postive is the best policy.....

 

[unicorn148]

the test flight of NLCA is in the end of 2010 and may be inducted by the time of induction of IAC 1

 

[angeldemon_007]

As many of us agree that more than 3 aircraft carriers is not in indias budget, I think India should go for some good Amphibious carriers for its plan to acquire 4 of these. These ships can also work as small aircraft carriers plus they have capability of carrying 1000s of men for an amphibious assault. I think they are much better than aircraft carrier. What you guys think??/

 

[sancho]

As many of us agree that more than 3 aircraft carriers is not in indias budget, I think India should go for some good Amphibious carriers for its plan to acquire 4 of these. These ships can also work as small aircraft carriers plus they have capability of carrying 1000s of men for an amphibious assault. I think they are much better than aircraft carrier. What you guys think??/

It's not neccesarily about the budget, but about the need. IN's main area of interest are our own coasts and the Indian Ocean. In this area, there is no enemy with an aircraft carrier, nor a surface fleet that could be a real threat, which means the 2 medium aircraft carriers should be enough for this region. IAC2 instead is meant to projecting the power to other places, especially with China in mind and I am sure we will see at least 2 of those bigger carriers.
Regarding amphibious carriers, I also think they are needed, but IN seems to see it different and wants to got with 4 x LPDs that are meant for landing operations only.