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Three Indian army Generals indicted in land corruption scandal:Inquiry report

Are there no corrupt politicians and military officials in Pakistan?

We should not generalize things based on a few incidents. Corruption is one of the biggest problems in our countries.

Yes we are no exception, we do have our share of corruption.

Our one Naval Chief has been convicted also.

But the point is, if you people are going to mock, i bet you'll lose!
 
dishonourable discharge and exemption from stipend/pension would be in order!
 
But the point is, if you people are going to mock, i bet you'll lose!

I think this point is unnecessary, in response to my previous post. And probably, should not have come from a "Think Tank" member.

I don't like to mock at anyone, and definitely not by using my keyboard. I know these things happen in our countries. There are good people and there are bad people everywhere. These army generals are just humans like us. They erred just as we do sometimes. If found guilty, I would hope that they should get appropriate punishment for their crime.

Corruption is a big problem in our countries, and we are equally responsible for this problem. Sometimes I feel that 'dishonesty' is in our blood (here I am talking about majority of South Asian people, including me).

There is no "looser-winner" or "yours better than mine" thing in this game. I think that the ultimate loosers are the ordinary people of our countries.

Regards
 
And for a few Generals' mistakes you thought it would be a good idea to generalize it to everybody?
What generalization are you talking about? Is that not the fact that in Pakistanis the Generals are above the law? Is that not the fact that MA Jinah personally wrote a note on Ayub Khan’s file that he must not be promoted, yet he was promoted by his friend Iskander Mirza? Is that not the fact that Ayub signed the Indus water treaty and now we are putting all the blame on India while totally ignoring the fact that the water of the three rivers was given to India by no one else but by self-proclaimed FM Ayub Khan? Is that not the fact that we went for a useless misadventure by the name of Operation Gibraltar and lost the precious lives of our men in return of no achievement? Is that not the fact that the GHQ in command of General Musa Khan asked all the officers to destroy the 1965 war’s war diaries? Sir would you explain to me why those orders were issued if we were winning and everything was so green? Are you aware the after the war, FM Ayub had asked General Musa not to promote certain officers who had performed badly and yet they were promoted to the ranks of Lt. General? Can you explain to me why in the light of the Hamood ur Rahman Commission Report, the officers responsible for pan (beetle leaf) smuggling, and other moral crimes in the East Pakistan were never questioned or tried? Can you explain to me why officers like Yahya, Gul Hasan, Tikka, and Niazi received full military burials? Can you explain to me why Bhutto was hanged as a result of a very dubious trial but Zia was given a burial place near Faisal mosque? Do I need to explain what Zia has done to this country in form of inviting Afghans?

We are not as holy and as clean as we want ourselves as well as others to believe. We may make ourselves fool but we can not make rest of the world fool with us. The world knows us, it has witnessed all our deeds, in the words of Hasan Nisaar “hamaray aamal, hamari harkatein”. Musharraf asked a serving Major General to use the political wing of ISI to rig the national elections, that officer (Major Genral Ehtesham Zameer) later admitted his wrongdoing publically, but this can only happen in Pakistan that both, Musharraf and Ehteshaam are roaming freely. If this thing had happened in India (forget about Europe or US), the two were tried.

Whatever I have said above, is it not well documented in the history books? Am I making something myself? If I am pointing to the fact that we have these shortcomings how this becomes “use this opportunity to plug in your agenda”? What opportunity and what agenda? You guys are free to sling as much mud on India and rest of the world but no one can or should show you the mirror? This may make sense if you are sitting on the highest pedestal of morality and others are far beneath, but is this the case?
 
So are they actually going to jail or they would be just be 'disgraced' and then left to 'rot' in paradise?

It is too early. It will be premature to hazard a guess.

See, they are being put under the scanner for an NOC they alleged gave for sale of private land ( tea estates) next to a military cantt which by law cannot be sold till cleared by the army. A school was intended to be built there.

The land has not yet been sold.Therefore technically they can at best be booked for the NOC they allegedly gave.

As far as the IA is concerned, the reputation of these gents is sullied, they will retire in disgrace - which is the worst thing that can happen to a soldier. If convicted, it will be a long drawn legal battle to prove their complicity. They could loose their pension or a part of it.

If it gets proven that money changed hands for the NOC, things will get different.
 
Shows what? That there is accountability in India, that even Generals can’t get away with their corruptions and wrongdoings thanks to their democracy and an existing system of check and balance. Can the same be said for Pakistan? Here in Pakistan, a fired General can re-instate himself as the COAS, can throw a democratically elected government out, can imprison an elected prime minister for using his (PMs) constitutional rights, can send 60 plus honorable Justices home, and can instruct a serving Major General to rig the national elections and still can get away from all his wrong doings. So which one is better, a country where even powerful Generals can be questioned or a country where law is only for weaks and civilians?

In Pakistan, services chiefs have been canned and sent to jail lest you forget.

The point here is that neither is better than the other. Both sides have rotten eggs here and there. The institutions on both sides are fairly sound.
 
In Pakistan, services chiefs have been canned and sent to jail lest you forget.

The point here is that neither is better than the other. Both sides have rotten eggs here and there. The institutions on both sides are fairly sound.

Guilty should be Indicting them is the first step. You can call our system rotten if these officials are let off even with appropriate evidence. Both countries cannot be clubbed as Army in India is under civilian rule in India since India came into being.
 
Guilty should be Indicting them is the first step. You can call our system rotten if these officials are let off even with appropriate evidence. Both countries cannot be clubbed as Army in India is under civilian rule in India since India came into being.

Being under civilian rule means nothing. There will always be some who will try to take advantage. The only reason these folks were indicted was because the deal involved civilians. Otherwise there are issues around kick-backs etc. etc. Point being that it happens on both sides of the divide regardless of the civilian or military rule. On the Pakistani side, plenty of military careers have been abruptly cut short without anything coming out in the press.
 
What generalization are you talking about? Is that not the fact that in Pakistanis the Generals are above the law? Is that not the fact that MA Jinah personally wrote a note on Ayub Khan’s file that he must not be promoted, yet he was promoted by his friend Iskander Mirza? Is that not the fact that Ayub signed the Indus water treaty and now we are putting all the blame on India while totally ignoring the fact that the water of the three rivers was given to India by no one else but by self-proclaimed FM Ayub Khan? Is that not the fact that we went for a useless misadventure by the name of Operation Gibraltar and lost the precious lives of our men in return of no achievement? Is that not the fact that the GHQ in command of General Musa Khan asked all the officers to destroy the 1965 war’s war diaries? Sir would you explain to me why those orders were issued if we were winning and everything was so green? Are you aware the after the war, FM Ayub had asked General Musa not to promote certain officers who had performed badly and yet they were promoted to the ranks of Lt. General? Can you explain to me why in the light of the Hamood ur Rahman Commission Report, the officers responsible for pan (beetle leaf) smuggling, and other moral crimes in the East Pakistan were never questioned or tried? Can you explain to me why officers like Yahya, Gul Hasan, Tikka, and Niazi received full military burials? Can you explain to me why Bhutto was hanged as a result of a very dubious trial but Zia was given a burial place near Faisal mosque? Do I need to explain what Zia has done to this country in form of inviting Afghans?

We are not as holy and as clean as we want ourselves as well as others to believe. We may make ourselves fool but we can not make rest of the world fool with us. The world knows us, it has witnessed all our deeds, in the words of Hasan Nisaar “hamaray aamal, hamari harkatein”. Musharraf asked a serving Major General to use the political wing of ISI to rig the national elections, that officer (Major Genral Ehtesham Zameer) later admitted his wrongdoing publically, but this can only happen in Pakistan that both, Musharraf and Ehteshaam are roaming freely. If this thing had happened in India (forget about Europe or US), the two were tried.

Whatever I have said above, is it not well documented in the history books? Am I making something myself? If I am pointing to the fact that we have these shortcomings how this becomes “use this opportunity to plug in your agenda”? What opportunity and what agenda? You guys are free to sling as much mud on India and rest of the world but no one can or should show you the mirror? This may make sense if you are sitting on the highest pedestal of morality and others are far beneath, but is this the case?

Should i start giving the names of CIVILIANS (politicians) who have done worst?

Or may be i should also include bureaucrats in the list?

May be a few scientists can also be added to make the list a bit more hefty?

What about our Police officials?

The common man?

Can you prove that the corruption of misdeeds are more common in our military than our society?

These are only a few names that you have used atleast a 1000 times out of your 1704 posts here at PDF! And that's what you can do best, malign a particular institution.

You are no judge to tell whomever to do what their job is to, people get promoted, buried, disgraced, honored and whatever-ed as per certain rules and sets, not everyone is perfect and not everyone is omni-clean. You have to accept a few bads and a few guuds to bring somebody at a place, but what is tried is that his guuds should be a bit more than his bads, and you know it.

Dont the politicians smuggle?

Dont our bureaucrats embezzle?

Dont our private enterprises fraud?

Dont people in our civilian institutions get promoted out of turn, are favored, politicized and nurtured against the popular will?

But you talk as if all the evils have born inside one institution.

Many a deeds of the military that you term as futile and needless are adored and said to be 'useful' by many. Now i am not at all sure of your criteria that you put in place to judge these things, how can we be sure that what you think is right? You may have your own reasons to believe what you want to believe, but the majority thinks otherwise!

(Un)fortunately, people like you are still small in number, and you need to work quiet hard to be the majority, till then you can RIP!

P.S. Now i know you are going to cry over just everything, you are as usual going to BS just every other person, institution and system of Pakistan and blame just everyone and say that just everyone should get lost (as you believe all of them are bad), so i am going to ask you a question, who exactly are you happy with? Yourself may be?!
 
I think this point is unnecessary, in response to my previous post. And probably, should not have come from a "Think Tank" member.

I don't like to mock at anyone, and definitely not by using my keyboard. I know these things happen in our countries. There are good people and there are bad people everywhere. These army generals are just humans like us. They erred just as we do sometimes. If found guilty, I would hope that they should get appropriate punishment for their crime.

Corruption is a big problem in our countries, and we are equally responsible for this problem. Sometimes I feel that 'dishonesty' is in our blood (here I am talking about majority of South Asian people, including me).

There is no "looser-winner" or "yours better than mine" thing in this game. I think that the ultimate loosers are the ordinary people of our countries.

Regards

The message was sent out to your fellow indians too, so dont take it your lone heart.

And as for your corruption surge around South Asia, this is what i have to say; Generals a (and alike) and stake holder should be punished more strictly because being learned, savvy, respected, role models, professionals and more responsible if they still screw up they need to be kick hard, as compared to a layman who might have done something out of necessity.

BTW, this thread was not about Pakistani Generals Vs their indian counterparts so another such stunt from our 'friends' would receive a harsher rebuttal!!
 
i think NRO exposes which type of people are most corrupt.

i think they're called "politicians" but not sure if they can fit under this classification, since politicians usually represent nation as whole
 
Shows what? That there is accountability in India, that even Generals can’t get away with their corruptions and wrongdoings thanks to their democracy and an existing system of check and balance. Can the same be said for Pakistan? Here in Pakistan, a fired General can re-instate himself as the COAS, can throw a democratically elected government out, can imprison an elected prime minister for using his (PMs) constitutional rights, can send 60 plus honorable Justices home, and can instruct a serving Major General to rig the national elections and still can get away from all his wrong doings. So which one is better, a country where even powerful Generals can be questioned or a country where law is only for weaks and civilians?

In Pakistan, prime land allocation to senior military officers is done legally as a reward for their service. It's par for the course.

Also, singling out Pak military for accountability is just plain wrong. Our politicians are bureaucrats are far mote corrupt and a lot richer than the generals. Accountability should apply to all.

South Asia Investor Review: Pakistan's NRO and Corrupt Democracies of South Asia
 
i think NRO exposes which type of people are most corrupt.

i think they're called "politicians" but not sure if they can fit under this classification, since politicians usually represent nation as whole
No doubt NRO exposes which kind of people are most corrupt, the ones who do crimes or the ones who give the criminals amnesty, a white chit to come back and do more crimes. So the next question, who are those who imposed this infamous NRO on the nation, corrupt politicians or the miserable bureaucrats, or the pathetic scientists, or the incapable police officials ?

I think the one who imposed the infamous NRO was called a General, also happened to be the CinC of an Institution.

These days this NRO imposer is praising Americans Jews for their imaginary and hypothetical help for the Bosnian Muslims while totally ignoring the historical fact that Clinton Administration had refused to appose the unjust UN arms embargo on Bosnia and indirectly helped the Serbs to kill as many Bosnians as possible. The same administration nominated Richard Holbrook its envoy, who played a vital role in balkanization. If it was a Pakistani politician and he had tried to talk to the Jews and tried to please them while totally ignoring the historical facts, he would have been cursed on this forum like a leper.
 
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and honestly, bro.

What kind of message do things like NROs send out to our future generations??? It's "okay" to bury our shady past and "forget about it" ??


Most of the people on this forum come across as well-educated people. How can you just say "hi, we are all guilty of something or another....lets just bury our past and 'forget' our misdeeds"


No.


If you break the laws, regardless of who you are or what your background is or who your father or grandfather was --- if you commit illegal act you must be punished for it and be held accountable. We need to demand new fresh and capable faces to run the country, those who wont just "white-wash" everything and pretend like the issues don't exist. It goes down to education, having SOME morals at least, and good judgement.


i am sick and tired of this nonsense
 

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