Thread by request: Issues facing Pakistan and their potential solutions

[VCheng]

Forced closure of restaurants is due to OR?

I think forced closure is a democratic decision where most of the population wants them to not open the businesses during the day..

It may be democratic, but it is still wrong to enforce matters of personal faith as a matter of state by law.

And you really think that these happens on ground?

Yes, it does, and besides, lack of enforcement of a law still does not justify for a law to exist. Take the Blasphemy Laws as an example.

That has nothing to do with Objective Resolution. However if Pakistan employs a religious police which goes around town forcing every Muslim of marriageable age to practice Thaum or Salah, you will find me in your ranks for human rights.

Have you forgotten General Zia's Salaat Committees so soon?

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One can look at the issue another way: do you agree that the present path of the society in terms of religion and that of the country as a religious state is correct? If not, then what should be done to change it and in what way? What gives authority to the religious fringes to impose their will on wider society?

 

[El Sidd]

Have you forgotten Gene Zia's Salaat Committees so soon?

People try within their own intellectual capacity. Though i disagree with the dictators action but to suggest this is extremism borne out of Objective Resolution is rather naive. What next, Pakistan Armed Forces uses Allah Akbar slogan and hence rogue terrorist army?

One can look at the issue another way: do you agree that the present path of the society in terms of religion and that of the country as a religious state is correct? If not, then what should be done to change it and in what way? What gives authority to the religious fringes to impose their will on wider society?

There is no constitutional enforcement of religion on an individual in Pakistan.
Can you please provide me evidence of religious fringes imposing their understanding of religion on the wider society?

 

[VCheng]

People try within their own intellectual capacity. Though i disagree with the dictators action but to suggest this is extremism borne out of Objective Resolution is rather naive. What next, Pakistan Armed Forces uses Allah Akbar slogan and hence rogue terrorist army?

The Pakistan Army is indeed rogue in the sense that it operates beyond its Constitutional mandates in pursuit of its own interests. As I said in my OP:

2. The Army continues to overreach in many areas beyond its legal mandate, leading to severe deleterious consequences for the country.

There is no constitutional enforcement of religion on an individual in Pakistan.
Can you please provide me evidence of religious fringes imposing their understanding of religion on the wider society?

The Blasphemy Laws are a good example that refute your contentions above.

 

[El Sidd]

The Pakistan Army is indeed rogue in the sense that it operates beyond its Constitutional mandates in pursuit of its own interests. As I said in my OP:

2. The Army continues to overreach in many areas beyond its legal mandate, leading to severe deleterious consequences for the country.

So you are saying that the Army brought in Imran Khan in its latest effort to destabilize Pakistan? I thought the Pakistani people voted him in.

The Blasphemy Laws are a good example that refute your contentions above.

Blasphemy laws should be made modern but how many blasphemy cases actually resulted in conviction if you may like to reflect.

And nothing to do with Objective Resolution either.

 

[VCheng]

So you are saying that the Army brought in Imran Khan in its latest effort to destabilize Pakistan? I thought the Pakistani people voted him in.

I am clearly saying that the Army operates beyond its Constitutional mandates in pursuit of its own interests.

Blasphemy laws should be made modern but how many blasphemy cases actually resulted in conviction if you may like to reflect.

And nothing to do with Objective Resolution either.

As I said above, the lack of enforcement does not justify a law that is an abomination to begin with, and yes, it clearly arises out of the OR that puts the state in the business of enforcing religion, including blasphemy.

 

[El Sidd]

I am clearly saying that the Army operates beyond its Constitutional mandates in pursuit of its own interests.

So you believe that the armed forces of Pakistan have their own interest divergent to the populace of Pakistan? Is this a secular fatwa against the army?

As I said above, the lack of enforcement does not justify a law that is an abomination to begin with, and yes, it clearly arises out of the OR that puts the state in the business of enforcing religion, including blasphemy.

The state does not enforce religion of Islam on the populace.
For example: Shias do not give Zakaat to the State of Pakistan. They are clearly not forced into it and are given religious freedom in this regard.

Blasphemy laws are more law and order in nature than objective resolution in their origins.

 

[PakSword]

It may be democratic, but it is still wrong to enforce matters of personal faith as a matter of state by law.

Laws are made by the people. It is people's will to pass and enact the law, why you have a problem? Either say that you have a problem with democracy..

By the way where is objectives resolution playing any part in this? Even if there was no OR, people would have passed the same law...

 

[VCheng]

So you believe that the armed forces of Pakistan have their own interest divergent to the populace of Pakistan? Is this a secular fatwa against the army?

Are you claiming that the Army operates within its Constitutional mandate?

The state does not enforce religion of Islam on the populace.
For example: Shias do not give Zakaat to the State of Pakistan. They are clearly not forced into it and are given religious freedom in this regard.

And yet the State mandates collection of Zakaat, a religious tax. Why?

 

[El Sidd]

Are you claiming that the Army operates within its Constitutional mandate?

constitution needs to be enforced. it is not a voluntary bucket list

the armed forces are not masumeens of Iran that they are perfect but they are still the most upright institution in the country.

 

[VCheng]

Laws are made by the people. It is people's will to pass and enact the law, why you have a problem? Either say that you have a problem with democracy..

By the way where is objectives resolution playing any part in this? Even if there was no OR, people would have passed the same law...

That is why I asked above: do you agree that the present path of the society in terms of religion and that of the country as a religious state is correct? If not, then what should be done to change it and in what way? What gives authority to the religious fringes to impose their will on wider society?

constitution needs to be enforced. it is not a voluntary bucket list

the armed forces are not masumeens of Iran that they are perfect but they are still the most upright institution in the country.

Is that a yes or no for the Army operating within its Constitutional mandate, or mere whataboutery?

 

[El Sidd]

And yet the State mandates collection of Zakaat, a religious tax. Why?

Because the state is responsible for fair distribution of wealth and resource.

Who do you like collecting the Zakaat? The Mullah or the State?

Is that a yes or no for the Army operating within its Constitutional mandate, or mere whataboutery?

The Constitutional mandate of the armed forces is protection of national interest.

The armed forces do not violate this code.

 

[VCheng]

The Constitutional mandate of the armed forces is protection of national interest.

The armed forces do not violate this code.

Flat out INCORRECT. Please read the Constitution about what it says in this regard.

Who do you like collecting the Zakaat? The Mullah or the State?

Neither. It is up to the individual as a private matter.

 

[El Sidd]

Flat out INCORRECT. Please read the Constitution about what it says in this regard.

you can point out with evidence of instances where the armed forces have been unconstitutional in nature. Martial law and dictators not counting.

Neither. It is up to the individual as a private matter.

It is not. How is the Zakaat a private matter? I understand you belong to a school of thought which does protest for it but do indulge more deeply.

 

[VCheng]

you can point out with evidence of instances where the armed forces have been unconstitutional in nature. Martial law and dictators not counting.

First of all, please tell us whether you think that the Army operates within its Constitutional mandate? And why exclude Martial Law and Dictators? Are they not the Army's doing?

It is not. How is the Zakaat a private matter? I understand you belong to a school of thought which does protest for it but do indulge more deeply.

How does Zakaat become a government matter? It is similar to fitraana, as a religious and private matter.

 

[El Sidd]

First of all, please tell us whether you think that the Army operates within its Constitutional mandate? And why exclude Martial Law and Dictators? Are they not the Army's doing?

We exclude Martial laws and dictators because that was an individual act.

The army does operate within constitutional mandate better than other institutions. As i clearly said they are not farsi masomeens.

How does Zakaat become a government matter? It is similar to fitraana, as a religious and private matter.

It becomes government matter since it is a financial transaction within the state.

Zakaat is not a private matter.