This Is the Ultimate MiG-21

[acetophenol]

Hi,

Just think of SPARTA---when the indians talk down of JF17---we are a smaller country----so a lesser in number but very potent aircraft will do the job for us.

In order for them to over power us---they need minimum of three times the numbers----three times the numbers they will never ever have---that is just to face us---. Then they need to cover their six---iechina---.

The u s will not come to their rescue---there is bad blood between the u s nd them----nd the u s never forgets the insults----. They will never get any source code of aim120's---u s will never tell them about any weaknesses in the missiles or the f16's or the radar---.

Remember---pilots are a different breed---american pilots like pakistani pilots---they have a lot of respect fpor the pak pilots.

They would want to learn from the paks how they shot down the SU30---the mirage 2ks and other aircraft----.

Just remeber---when you go to a war---you fight with the weapons that you have---so you better learn how to get the best out of them.

The JF17 has a killer array of weapons---in the end---it would all come down to is numbers---.

when did Pak shoot down Su 30 and M2ks?

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Hi,
Just think of SPARTA---when the indians talk down of JF17---we are a smaller country----so a lesser in number but very potent aircraft will do the job for us.

Sorry Mastan baih that example is ridiculous .... JF17 is good and potent aircraft period . ( nothing much nothing less)

In order for them to over power us---they need minimum of three times the numbers----three times the numbers they will never ever have---that is just to face us---. Then they need to cover their six---iechina---.
The u s will not come to their rescue---there is bad blood between the u s nd them----nd the u s never forgets the insults----. They will never get any source code of aim120's---u s will never tell them about any weaknesses in the missiles or the f16's or the radar---.

3 times? the numbers are important in war but there are other decisive factors too...
I dont remember Indians asking US support. PAF pilots liked by USAF! how is that gonna help? Aim 120 source codes we are never gonna get from US ( though we might try other sources) WE already did a extensive study about the F16.

They would want to learn from the paks how they shot down the SU30---the mirage 2ks and other aircraft----.

Just remeber---when you go to a war---you fight with the weapons that you have---so you better learn how to get the best out of them.

The JF17 has a killer array of weapons---in the end---it would all come down to is numbers---.

I agree on this though , they would want to know about our planes .
Again JF17 is good weapons platform but that too with limitations. And PAF knows them.
MIG 21 and JF 17 is good value for money.

when did Pak shoot down Su 30 and M2ks?

That is speculation I guess in case of war.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

when did Pak shoot down Su 30 and M2ks?

i think it was the pak-soviet airfoece clash during the 80's but it was su- 25 not su-30

Between May 1986 and November 1988,[31] PAF F-16s have shot down at least eight intruders from Afghanistan. The first three of these (one Su-22, one probable Su-22, and one An-26) were shot down by two pilots from No. 9 Squadron. Pilots of No. 14 Squadron destroyed the remaining five intruders (two Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and one Su-25).[32] Most of these kills were by the AIM-9 Sidewinder, but at least one (a Su-22) was destroyed by cannon fire. Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mahmoud is credited with three of these kills. One F-16 was lost in these battles during an encounter between two F-16s and
four Soviet Air Force MiG 23s on 29 April 1987. The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan, ejected safely.[33]]Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the mirage ( not sure weather 2k or not, might be f-1 or iii/v)

During the war, sixteen Pakistan Air Force pilots volunteered to leave for the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived Egypt had already agreed on a cease-fire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel so the PAF pilots became instructors there and formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr AB. One of the PAF pilots, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi flying a MiG-21 shot down an Israeli Air Force Mirage and was honoured by the Syrian government.[24][25][26]
Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Storm Force]

PAF LOST An F16 to a MIG23

One F-16 was lost in these battles during an encounter between two F-16s and
four Soviet Air Force MiG 23s on 29 April 1987. The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan, ejected safely

Shocking since the MIG23 are vintage planes

 

[alimobin memon]

PAF LOST An F16 to a MIG23

One F-16 was lost in these battles during an encounter between two F-16s and
four Soviet Air Force MiG 23s on 29 April 1987. The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan, ejected safely

Shocking since the MIG23 are vintage planes

That was friendly fire incidence

 

[Storm Force]

Friendl;y fire THAT EVEN WORSE

 

[That Guy]

Friendl;y fire THAT EVEN WORSE

Not really, such incidences happen from time to time. The F-16 is still a deadly weapon system to this day, and very few modern warplanes have as much experience as the F-16.

 

[Thorough Pro]

when did Pak shoot down Su 30 and M2ks?

 

[MastanKhan]

Master khan. Your making it too simplistic to suggest a big radar and good weapons makes a good fighter.

Good engine with low maintenance
Modern unstable fcs
Low rcs with composite airframe
Open architecture to carry western weapons variety
Real time force multiplers like awacs and GPS satalite
Ew suites of high capability

All add to s good multi role fighters

Hi,

So let me ask you this----a B52 with a massive radar and jamming capabilites----and all its bays loaded with around 30---40 of the latest aim 120's and pylons on wings loaded up as well with AGM's and off bore sight missile----is it just Dale Brown's fantasy or what---or can you take on a sqdrn of enemy's frontline aircraft.

For those nations that cannot afford a 5th gen aircraft---it would be better for them to invest in the EW suite and capable BVR's and WVR's to take on these aircraft---. Once you can ascertain that your BVR's can smash thru the enemy air defences and take out their superior aircraft---then you can invest in developing a 5th gen aircraft at your leisure.

It will all come down to who can shoot the farthest and get the highest PERCENTAGE OF KILLS at the FARTHEST DISTANCE.

 

[Storm Force]

To Master Khan.

Planes that do this in your words

It will all come down to who can shoot the farthest and get the highest PERCENTAGE OF KILLS at the FARTHEST DISTANCE.

Tend to be your heavy weights fighters like

F15 Eagle
F18 Super Hornets
Flankers


Their size of these mean they carry bigger radars bigger engines = more power more EW suites AND BIGGER LARGER BVR missles.

This is why countries like USA Russia Japan China India & Saudi carry large nos of twin engined MR fighters.

 

[MastanKhan]

when did Pak shoot down Su 30 and M2ks?

Hi,

You missed what I wrote----if it happens in the future then they would want to know---please read the post again.

 

[MastanKhan]

To Master Khan.

Planes that do this in your words



Tend to be your heavy weights fighters like

F15 Eagle
F18 Super Hornets
Flankers


Their size of these mean they carry bigger radars bigger engines = more power more EW suites AND BIGGER LARGER BVR missles.

This is why countries like USA Russia Japan China India & Saudi carry large nos of twin engined MR fighters.

Hi,

Bigger and larger missiles means nothing---it is the percentage of kill ratio at the farthest distance---that means the technology and guidance system of that missile is far superior.

The flanker can carry many a large bvr's---but their kill ratio at 80--90% of its range is terrible.

What pak needs to do is to work with china and have a better version of SD10B which is more potent and has a higher kill ratio at its maximum distance.

Like the aim120 that pak has---has a higher kill ratio at longer distances than what india has in its arsenal at this time.

 

[MilSpec]

Hi,

Bigger and larger missiles means nothing---it is the percentage of kill ratio at the farthest distance---that means the technology and guidance system of that missile is far superior.

The flanker can carry many a large bvr's---but their kill ratio at 80--90% of its range is terrible.

What pak needs to do is to work with china and have a better version of SD10B which is more potent and has a higher kill ratio at its maximum distance.

Like the aim120 that pak has---has a higher kill ratio at longer distances than what india has in its arsenal at this time.

It would be helpful if your data can be substantiated with some literature. From the little interaction i have had with pilots in India and US, in BVR combat, practical engagement is usually at half the distance of the max BVR, pilots would wait till the last minute, as it reduces the response time for the opponent for counter measures as well as evasive maneuvers. So it boils down to who can see farther and has longer range, along with that R27ET/ER can be launched without a lock and achieve a lock PPS: In this mode which gives an incredible advantage of fire first and lock later at longer engagement ranges, especially when adversary turns on their radar.

As far as Missile comparison is concerned, although older Rvv ae are comparable to Aim 120C, the newer lot of RVV AEM1 with multi-function doppler-monopulse active radar seeker have better performance than RVV AE, addtionally Python IV currently posses the best all aspect seeker in the combat arena as of today and is also qualified on the MKI.

BVR Missiles That India Fields or will Field

Rvv Ae, Rvv Ae M1, Rvv MD, Derby, Python IV, Mica,

Underdevelopment/procurement: Rvv-SD, K77 Aesa, Astra I/II, K-172

 

[ejaz007]

PAF LOST An F16 to a MIG23

One F-16 was lost in these battles during an encounter between two F-16s and
four Soviet Air Force MiG 23s on 29 April 1987. The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan, ejected safely

Shocking since the MIG23 are vintage planes

That F-16 was an own kill and Mig-23 in 1987 was not vintage fighter. Remember Mig-23 was introduced at around the same time as F-16 only few years difference between them. It was a good fighter.

 

[Donatello]

It would be helpful if your data can be substantiated with some literature. From the little interaction i have had with pilots in India and US, in BVR combat, practical engagement is usually at half the distance of the max BVR, pilots would wait till the last minute, as it reduces the response time for the opponent for counter measures as well as evasive maneuvers. So it boils down to who can see farther and has longer range, along with that R27ET/ER can be launched without a lock and achieve a lock PPS: In this mode which gives an incredible advantage of fire first and lock later at longer engagement ranges, especially when adversary turns on their radar.

As far as Missile comparison is concerned, although older Rvv ae are comparable to Aim 120C, the newer lot of RVV AEM1 with multi-function doppler-monopulse active radar seeker have better performance than RVV AE, addtionally Python IV currently posses the best all aspect seeker in the combat arena as of today and is also qualified on the MKI.

View attachment 23114


BVR Missiles That India Fields or will Field

Rvv Ae, Rvv Ae M1, Rvv MD, Derby, Python IV, Mica,

Underdevelopment/procurement: Rvv-SD, K77 Aesa, Astra I/II, K-172

You missed what he was trying to say. Actually you completely missed it. He is not claiming that a certain missile has range more than the other missile, but rather what is the chance that a missile can hit a target SUCCESSFULLY within those range limits. A missile having a range of 100NM will not have a 100% kill probability at 100NM. It will be far less than that. There has been numerous discussions here and on other forums that the way missile range is calculated is very misleading. It is not standardized at all. Russians do it in a different way than Americans. A missile that is approaching head on to a target has a higher chance of kill than the missile that has to put up a chase. And if that chase is already 50nautical miles behind, then the missile has a low probability of kill.

The AIM54 Phoenix was a mammoth of a missile, with 100NM range, but was superseded by shorter range AIM120. So it is not exactly the range that matters. But the chances of kill. And beyond a certain limit, like speed, altitude, direction, turn rate etc, the dynamics of the missile govern the chance that if it will hit or miss the target.

The last part of your post stating Underdevelopment etc is not relevent here. Aim120 and SD10A are both in active service and more than enough that PAF needs.