This is how PAF Flies

[Imran Khan]

so they were with me in skardu snow fall dekhny

 

[CriticalThought]

You have gone off topic and brought stuff and technology into play that our theater doesn't has.

Ummmmm OBL raid happened in a different theatre? Anyway, people asked me questions and I replied. Why are you accusing me of detailing the thread?

 

[krash]

I'd put that at 500 ft above terrain. No way the jocks go lower than that. If you don't have a video it didn't happen

 

[Talon]

Ummmmm OBL raid happened in a different theatre? Anyway, people asked me questions and I replied. Why are you accusing me of detailing the thread?

What I am meant by going off topic was our discussion and not the thread.

If I am not wrong the area in the video sides with China and India so yeah OBL raid didn't happen there and no chance of US getting from that side.

Kindly stop bringing irrelevant stuff again and again.Even if we consider YOUR stealth helos How on Earth you are going to do BFMs with them? as our discussion involved intercepting low level enemy aircrafts and thus practicing BFMs.Also stealth helos Dont need to use mountain cover I THINK, what's the point of being stealth then(khair that's a different topic and i am no expert and please dont start on this one.)

I am not very fond of long discussions with no ends so lets stop this.My only point was that if enemy is successfully using these mountains for attack then there is no chance of BFMs and we'll only know about them when they are pulling up for attack run and I still stand on my point unlike you deviating from topic and bringing stealth helos and what not.
PEACE!

 

[CriticalThought]

What I am meant by going off topic was our discussion and not the thread.

If I am not wrong the area in the video sides with China and India so yeah OBL raid didn't happen there and no chance of US getting from that side.

Kindly stop bringing irrelevant stuff again and again.Even if we consider YOUR stealth helos How on Earth you are going to do BFMs with them? as our discussion involved intercepting low level enemy aircrafts and thus practicing BFMs.Also stealth helos Dont need to use mountain cover I THINK, what's the point of being stealth then(khair that's a different topic and i am no expert and please dont start on this one.)

I am not very fond of long discussions with no ends so lets stop this.My only point was that if enemy is successfully using these mountains for attack then there is no chance of BFMs and we'll only know about them when they are pulling up for attack run and I still stand on my point unlike you deviating from topic and bringing stealth helos and what not.
PEACE!

It was a passing comment.

Anyway, a question. Shouldn't this area get AWACS coverage during war time? Not sure the specific capabilities of PAF AWACS, but in general, they are ideal for covering unfriendly terrain.

 

[Talon]

It was a passing comment.

Anyway, a question. Shouldn't this area get AWACS coverage during war time? Not sure the specific capabilities of PAF AWACS, but in general, they are ideal for covering unfriendly terrain.

Usually a high flying aircraft can detect most aircrafts flying below it even at very low levels...you should know that already.

 

[CriticalThought]

Usually a high flying aircraft can detect most aircrafts flying below it even at very low levels...you should know that already.

Well my argument is that once engagement starts over such terrain, you can't control where the fight goes. There will be no lower altitude deck as happens during training exercises. You can't predict the enemy. So you should prepare yourself for all scenarios.

 

[Talon]

Well my argument is that once engagement starts over such terrain, you can't control where the fight goes. There will be no lower altitude deck as happens during training exercises. You can't predict the enemy. So you should prepare yourself for all scenarios.

Your original argument was enemy using these mountains as cover.The scenario you are mentioning now will most likely take place when enemy is flying at detectable altitude.Also these days first priority is BVR and not dogfight so there's even more less chance of what you are trying to force past few days .

You may also remember PAF mirages successfully made a surprise attack on a USS Carrier by flying low and that too over water.We are talking about mountains here,do the math

Let's end this,shall we? One question though,have you any experience in flight simulation?

There will be no lower altitude deck as happens during training exercises.

No,it does not happen like that in training exercises.There are rules of engagement and you have to follow those.

It is pre decided that both fighters will use bvr or IR.It will either a bfm mission or bvr mission.Each mission is alloted certain airspace aka area and they cant go out of that area both x and y axis.

 

[CriticalThought]

Your original argument was enemy using these mountains as cover.The scenario you are mentioning now will most likely take place when enemy is flying at detectable altitude.Also these days first priority is BVR and not dogfight so there's even more less chance of what you are trying to force past few days .

You may also remember PAF mirages successfully made a surprise attack on a USS Carrier by flying low and that too over water.We are talking about mountains here,do the math

Let's end this,shall we? One question though,have you any experience in flight simulation?


No,it does not happen like that in training exercises.There are rules of engagement and you have to follow those.

It is pre decided that both fighters will use bvr or IR.It will either a bfm mission or bvr mission.Each mission is alloted certain airspace aka area and they cant go out of that area both x and y axis.

I have controlled an actual helicopter and an actual turboprop trainer. Controlled as in the pilot takes off and the pilot lands, but hands over control. I have experienced 3G turn in the turboprop. And the pilot for the turboprop was nice enough to let me pull back the stick while we descended and literally talked me through it all. Of course he had the throttle the entire time. And I don't believe I could replicate that on my own if nobody talked me through. And I have jumped out of a plane as well, from 13000 ft. I plan to try out an actual LIFT plane. And I read about aerodynamics. And the US Navy fighter pilot manual. And I google. And I have actual PAF personnel on PDF willing to share their information.

So here is what happens. The enemy uses them for cover, but the initial shot from above fails. Now the enemy is aware of your position and the fight is on. For that initial shot, you wouldn't necessarily use a BVR in a look down/shoot down scenario. Not all BVRs are capable of that. The active homing would face the same problems of ground clutter which an actual aircraft faces. So there you are, an unpredictable fight over very unfriendly terrain.

And you got me wrong about the lower deck. I meant, in a real fight, there would be no lower deck, like they way it happens in training where you do have a lower deck. Again, we have a serious communication problem happening between you and me.

 

[Talon]

I have controlled an actual helicopter and an actual turboprop trainer. Controlled as in the pilot takes off and the pilot lands, but hands over control. I have experienced 3G turn in the turboprop. And the pilot for the turboprop was nice enough to let me pull back the stick while we descended and literally talked me through it all. Of course he had the throttle the entire time. And I don't believe I could replicate that on my own if nobody talked me through. And I have jumped out of a plane as well, from 13000 ft. I plan to try out an actual LIFT plane. And I read about aerodynamics. And the US Navy fighter pilot manual. And I google. And I have actual PAF personnel on PDF willing to share their information.

So here is what happens. The enemy uses them for cover, but the initial shot from above fails. Now the enemy is aware of your position and the fight is on. For that initial shot, you wouldn't necessarily use a BVR in a look down/shoot down scenario. Not all BVRs are capable of that. The active homing would face the same problems of ground clutter which an actual aircraft faces. So there you are, an unpredictable fight over very unfriendly terrain.

And you got me wrong about the lower deck. I meant, in a real fight, there would be no lower deck, like they way it happens in training where you do have a lower deck. Again, we have a serious communication problem happening between you and me.

Good for you but general aviation is different than fighter flying or fighter simulation where tactics are involved and not just pulling the stick.Kudos for the jump though.

Regarding your second para I didnt understand the term Initial shot..If i am not wrong you expect the aggressor to keep flying low at the same stpt after being detected??

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Hopefully its my last comment relating to this unending discussion as you are not willing to consider my points even after I have given you real life examples.You just keep quoting theoratical stuff.Lastly,if you have access to PAF personnel than discuss this with them,they may be able to satisfy you or prove me wrong in other case.

 

[CriticalThought]

Good for you but general aviation is different than fighter flying or fighter simulation where tactics are involved and not just pulling the stick.Kudos for the jump though.

Regarding your second para I didnt understand the term Initial shot..If i am not wrong you expect the aggressor to keep flying low at the same stpt after being detected??

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Hopefully its my last comment relating to this unending discussion as you are not willing to consider my points even after I have given you real life examples.You just keep quoting theoratical stuff.Lastly,if you have access to PAF personnel than discuss this with them,they may be able to satisfy you or prove me wrong in other case.

Initial shot means getting clearance, and since you implied BVR, I'll assume Fox three. And no I am not saying the hostile will keep flying low, I am saying how the battle evolves from there is unpredictable.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

For airborne radar, no target can hide, but then clutter does funny things, and RCS and aspect are a full science. Western Air to Air Combat is all about distant detection, and BVR engagement. Funny stunts are still pulled off by Covert doctrine AF like P.

 

[Raider 21]

I have controlled an actual helicopter and an actual turboprop trainer. Controlled as in the pilot takes off and the pilot lands, but hands over control. I have experienced 3G turn in the turboprop. And the pilot for the turboprop was nice enough to let me pull back the stick while we descended and literally talked me through it all. Of course he had the throttle the entire time. And I don't believe I could replicate that on my own if nobody talked me through. And I have jumped out of a plane as well, from 13000 ft. I plan to try out an actual LIFT plane. And I read about aerodynamics. And the US Navy fighter pilot manual. And I google. And I have actual PAF personnel on PDF willing to share their information.

So here is what happens. The enemy uses them for cover, but the initial shot from above fails. Now the enemy is aware of your position and the fight is on. For that initial shot, you wouldn't necessarily use a BVR in a look down/shoot down scenario. Not all BVRs are capable of that. The active homing would face the same problems of ground clutter which an actual aircraft faces. So there you are, an unpredictable fight over very unfriendly terrain.

And you got me wrong about the lower deck. I meant, in a real fight, there would be no lower deck, like they way it happens in training where you do have a lower deck. Again, we have a serious communication problem happening between you and me.

US NATOPS manuals are very different. The naval aviation community have their manuals set up in a way that tells them what they should not do. The air force manuals are set up on what they should do.

Just some subtle details for interest.

 

[Bossman]

Imagine the complexity of trying to defend against an Indian attack through these valleys.. and for them to do the same.
Although weather makes it hazardous for any aircraft in this area.

There is a simple solution which has been used in the past and can be easily deployed. Stretching cables across the valleys and using barrage balloons. Have you wondered why Pakistan is maybe the only country still using barrage balloons? Not every thing is obvious specially to those not in the know. Humint is criticalin using such valleys for attacks.

 

[Windjammer]

A Pair of No-5 Block-52 F-16C in Tandem landing at a FOB.

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