This Indian Land Is Chinese Land

[DeathGod]

Hi guys

Well the first thing that stuck me was the title of the thread :

This Indian Land Is Chinese Land

Somehow I think the title is assertive and what I can make out is that the author of the thread or the article which is being quoted is quite confident of Chinese claim on the land that is governed by India.Whatever the case maybe , if one will have such an attitude then it leaves little room for discussion.

I wont go into the history of the region to contest India's claim or contest the Chinese one(that is futile as claims due to historic evidence are of little relevance IMO).
However I would like to know if these kind of things are discussed by diplomats when they are discussing the authority for a disputed land?If not , then if someone can please tell me what is discussed?

I am no mod for the thread but I think qouting documents/articles etc to refute each other's claim is no way of going about the problem as each party has it own interpretation. What might be better for us is to discuss what can be the next steps for turning the LAC/LOC to actual international borders.

P.S : Please restrain yourselves from posts like for peace India has to give up all the areas or for the betterment of the population residing in that area, the Chinese should pack and leave. These are not the options for any country as I see it.

 

[navtrek]

We all see an imperialist clownish face!

You know nearly nothing of Ladakh, mate.

Ladakh, it was the descendents of Tibetan Tubo Kings who established the Ladakh empire:

( A pro-India website).

BTW, for those understand Chinese, “Three Gons,” means 阿里三围 in Chinese. Ali(阿&#37324 region of Tibet are called Rear Tibet (as opposed to Front Tibet).

The 1842 treaty guaranteed a more independent Lakadh:



Why the kings fled to Lhasa? Because they tended to seek asylum/support from Tibet.

Historically, racially, culturally, and religiously, Ladakh is mostly Tibetan, and it rightfully called “little Tibet”. Aryans were perhaps the earliest dweller. Their mixed descendents Indo-aryans are only minority now.

The size of Ladakh varied according to who rose and who fell among its stronger neighbors. Most of the time, it was more a vassal country to either Tibet or Jammu kings.

Now somebody here claimed he “proved” Ladakh is Indian. Thanks, but no thanks to the big mouth. To the most, Ladakh would be more an independent vassal country to Jammu, or Tibet, never to India as there was no India there at that time! Tibet has it, as it is one of “Three Gons”. Yes, ancient Sikkim emperor once occupied it, but that influence has long gone, not event a vestige can be found. India’s claim can only and feebly based on British East India Company’s imperialistic interference on the region, as India perhaps appears to inherit the most notorious imperialism in the region.

So stop providing laughing stock.

oh i didn't know abt this. Thanks and am not worried abt becoming a laughing stock so waiting for your reply

 

[navtrek]

1. King Lalitaditya-Muktapida, who ruled between approx. 725 and756 C.E., had united Ladakh and gave craftsmen who fled from northern India the possibility to work and build monasteries in his kingdom.

2.Many rock reliefs from the 8th century onwards can be attributed to King Lalitaditya’s times

David Snellgrove and Tadeusz Skorpuski wrote: “Religious treasures, both Hindu and Buddhist, were plundered from all over northern India and craftsmen brought in from distant lands, thus building up what might have proved an amazingly rich heritage. But even as it was being built up, it was already being ravaged by raiding Tibetans, who were then the main power in Central Asia and scarcely yet converted to Buddhism.

3. Lalitaditya’s successors were unable to hold the kingdom together, and several centuries of political turmoil and disruption, of internal strife and foreign invasion must have resulted in the dissipation of what must have been an extraordinary civilization long before the country fell to a Muslim dynasty in 1337 A.D.

4. a large temple and a stupa, may still be seen at Lalitaditya’s one-time capital of Parihasapura, some 30 km north of Srinagar.

Ladakh must surely have been subject to him, and thus it is to the 8th and subsequent centuries that we may attribute the Buddhist rock-reliefs, which represent the most important traces of pre-Tibetan, i.e., direct Indian Buddhist influence in Ladakh.”

5. The 9-meter high image carved in the rock is referred to as Maitreya Buddha in most guidebooks, but the image is Avalokiteshvara, Lord of Compassion, since the statue has four arms. It is carved in the late Gupta period of India (8th or 9th century)

About the Gupta empire
The Gupta Empire (Hindi: गुप्त राजवंश Gupta Rājavaṃśa) was an Ancient Indian empire which existed approximately from 320 to 550 CE and covered much of the Indian Subcontinent[1]. Founded by Maharaja Sri-Gupta, the dynasty began the Classical Age in the Middle kingdoms of India[2]. The capital of the Guptas was Pataliputra, present day Patna, in the north Indian state of Bihar.

Gupta Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A Short History of Ladakh

 

[navtrek]

So much to prove my point this is before what u have stated as a time line
The Gupta dynasty ruled even before the dark ages, Which u have mentioned so check the link u have provided itself.

 

[Honor]

Ladakh is a complete different country from India! A majority of Ladakhis are Tibetan Buddhists and the rest are mostly Shia Muslims

Hands off India!

 

[navtrek]

Ladakh is a complete different country from India! A majority of Ladakhis are Tibetan Buddhists and the rest are mostly Shia Muslims

Hands off India!

Well give me facts buddy

 

[navtrek]

"Why ladhak belongs to India and not China " this is why ?

First point.

The first glimpse of political history in ladhak is found in the kharosthi inscription of "Uvima Kavthisa" discovered near the K'a-la-rtse (Khalatse) bridge on the Indus, showing that in around the 1st century, Ladakh was a part of the Kushana empire. A few other short Brahmi and Kharosthi inscriptions have been found in Ladakh.

History of Ladakh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chinese sources describe the Guishuang (Ch: 貴&#38684, i.e. the "Kushans", as one of the five aristocratic tribes of the Yuezhi, also spelled Yueh-chi,[9] (Ch: 月&#27663, a loose confederation of Indo-European peoples.[8] The Yuezhi are also generally considered as the easternmost speakers of Indo-European languages,

Kushan Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Direct archaeological evidence of a Kushan rule of long duration is basically available in an area stretching from Surkh Kotal, Begram, the summer capital of the Kushans, Peshawar the capital under Kanishka I, Taxila and Mathura, the winter capital of the Kushans.

Other areas of probable rule include Khwarezm (Russian archaeological findings)[13] Kausambi (excavations of the Allahabad University),[13] Sanchi and Sarnath (inscriptions with names and dates of Kushan kings),[13] Malwa and Maharashtra,[14] Orissa (imitation of Kushan coins, and large Kushan hoards).[13]

The recently discovered Rabatak inscription confirms the account of the 3rd century Chinese history, the Weilüe, and inscriptions dated early in the Kanishka era (incept probably 127 CE), that large Kushan dominions expanded into in the heartland of northern India in the early 2nd century CE. The lines 4 to 7 of the inscription[15] describe the cities which were under the rule of Kanishka, among which six names are identifiable: Ujjain, Kundina, Saketa, Kausambi, Pataliputra, and Champa (although the text is not clear whether Champa was a possession of Kanishka or just beyond it)

Decline

The Eastern Kushan kingdom was based in the Punjab. Around 270 their territories on the Gangetic plain became independent under local dynasties such as the Yaudheyas. Then in the mid 4th century they were subjugated by the Gupta Empire under Samudragupta.

 

[navtrek]

second point

After the Kushan empire fell it was followed by the gupta empire

The Gupta Empire

was an Ancient Indian empire which existed approximately from 320 to 550 CE and covered much of the Indian Subcontinent. Founded by Maharaja Sri-Gupta, the dynasty began the Classical Age in the Middle kingdoms of India.

The capital of the Guptas was Pataliputra, present day Patna, in the north Indian state of Bihar.

History of Ladakh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[navtrek]

Other links to Ladhak

The kingdom of Moluosuo, or Mar-sa, would seem to be synonymous with Mar-yul, a common name for Ladakh.

Elsewhere, the text remarks that Mo-lo-so, also called San-po-ho borders with Suvarnagotra or Suvarnabhumi (Land of Gold), identical with the Kingdom of Women (Strirajya).

According to Tucci, the Zhangzhung kingdom, or at least its southern districts were known by this name by the 7th century Indians.

 

[navtrek]

In the 6th century Ladhak came under the influence of Tibet for the first time

In 634/5 Zhangzhung acknowledged Tibetan suzernaity for the first time, and in 653 a Tibetan commissioner (mnan) was appointed there. Regular administration was introduced in 662, and a unsuccessful rebellion broke out in 677.

King Lalitaditya-Muktapida,

who ruled between approx. 725 and756 C.E., had united Ladakh and gave craftsmen who fled from northern India the possibility to work and build monasteries in his kingdom. Many rock reliefs from the 8th century onwards can be attributed to King Lalitaditya’s times

A Short History of Ladakh

Lalitaditya Muktapida was the emperor of Kashmir from 724 to 760 under the Karkota dynasty. During his reign, he conquered most of Northern India and Central Asia.

Lalitaditya Muktapida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now Ladhak again came back under Indian influence

 

[navtrek]

In the 8th century,

Ladakh was involved in the clash between Tibetan expansion pressing from the East, and Chinese influence exerted from Central Asia through the passes. In 719 a census was taken, and in 724 the administration was reorganized. In 737, the Tibetans launched an attack against the king of Bru-za (Gilgit), who asked for Chinese help, but was ultimately forced to pay homage to Tibet.

so even in the 8th century ladhak belonged to King of Bru-za then kashmir

"Rizvi" goes on to point out that this passage not only confirms that in the early eight century the region of modern "Ladakh was under Tibetan suzerainty, but that the people were of non-Tibetan stock".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ladakh

"After the collapse of the Tibetan monarchy in 842, Tibetan suzerainty over Ladhak vanished quickly"

.

 

[navtrek]

The first West Tibetan dynasty(842)

After the break-up of the Tibetan empire in 842, Nyima-Gon, a representative of the ancient Tibetan royal house founded the first Ladakh dynasty.

Nyima-Gon's kingdom had its centre well to the east of present-day Ladakh. This was the period in which Ladakh underwent Tibetanization, eventually making Ladakh a country inhabited by a mixed population, the predominant racial strain of which was Tibetan.

This is of prime importance this part of history is what makes Chinese feel Ladhak belongs to them but History continues

 

[Honor]

The first West Tibetan dynasty(842)

After the break-up of the Tibetan empire in 842, Nyima-Gon, a representative of the ancient Tibetan royal house founded the first Ladakh dynasty.

Nyima-Gon's kingdom had its centre well to the east of present-day Ladakh. This was the period in which Ladakh underwent Tibetanization, eventually making Ladakh a country inhabited by a mixed population, the predominant racial strain of which was Tibetan.

This is of prime importance this part of history is what makes Chinese feel Ladhak belongs to them but History continues

There are small little kinddom claiming this land earlier! How could you say this belongs to India? India does not exisit before that!

As you had mentioned now, ladakh had underwent Tibetanization. In 1947 there partition left Ladakh a part of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir! This is a British brilliant legacy! It should be to Pakistan where Muslim had more legal claim in Kashmir

 

[navtrek]

There are small little kinddom claiming this land earlier! How could you say this belongs to India? India does not exisit before that!

As you had mentioned now, ladakh had underwent Tibetanization. In 1947 there partition left Ladakh a part of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir! This is a British brilliant legacy! It should be to Pakistan where Muslim had more legal claim in Kashmir

well ill come back to u buddy me doing my Homework soon it will be Indianized again(i mean interms of history)

And by the way in 8th century Pakistan was still a part of India so lets not go to fast

There are a lot more information to come i.e. before partition of India ha ha

 

[Honor]

well ill come back to u buddy me doing my Homework soon it will be Indianized again(i mean interms of history)

And by the way in 8th century Pakistan was still a part of India so lets not go to fast

There are a lot more information to come i.e. before partition of India ha ha

U're a hard working chap! Still working on more infor!

Territories change hands all the times! Ladakh is in India hands now. Officially, China is not contesting Ladakh. Be cool!

I am just pointing out that India gained Ladakh through British legacy!
That's part of history now and we cannot changed it.