The two things hurting Pakistan : Ayaz Amir

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

what is great about Turkey ??

It's virtually a fully developed nation with an infrastructure and living standard of ALL of it's citizens comparable to European nations. It is also a super clean country. It has reached this stage despite the fact that it was in a similar situation to what Pakistan is now less than 50 years ago.

 

[Lurch Adams]

Religious extremism and chronic corruption.

Although long-term, the toxic school syllabus is the main concern IMO.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

In order.

1. Total failure to define national identity leading to weak national polity.
2. Allowing the state to become a footbal to be played about by 'Islamists' bringing never ending religious squabbles.
3. Creating a national fabric wrapped around pretentious religion which merely serves as cloak for the elite to plunder.

*I am not excusing corruption but this is a affliction that many countries suffer including India, China and even so called developed countries like Italy. Pakistan is not by any means alone in this regard. As regards politicans, Pakistan has not allowed democracy to function long enough to mature the system.

* Bringing religion into the public realm was a recipe for continous internecine conflic. The never ending schisms in Islam spilled over into the state and public fora which have created disunity and created vehicles for outside actors to enter and play in the internal affairs of Pakistan. Further Pakistan, a soveriegn state has become hostage to various causes tagged as "Islam" which have created trouble for Pakistan in the international politics.

*Turkey is fine example of how to build a strong, solid and unified national state without dozens to the dime interests tearing away at the state. The Turkish people are very nationalistic as is evidenced by the Turkish members in thios forum.

@xenon54

Turkey is the example Pakistan should be following. We have a lot in common with them and less than 50 years ago, they were in the same socio-economic situation Pakistan is now.

 

[wiseone2]

It is everything India is not. That is automatic recipe for being great. Check out Kolkatta and Istanbul. You will know what I mean.

May be we start treating Pakistan the way it treats Iraq and Syria ? start by stealing the Indus river waters.
Are you game Mr Kaptaan ??

 

[Lurch Adams]

what is great about Turkey ??

Turkey faces its own set of challenges. If Erdogan continues for another decade, expect civil liberties and secularism to vanish. Also, an entire generation of Turks is being radicalized today as it serves the purpose of the ruling AKP. A vast schism is opening up between the urban, secular and Westernized elite of Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir and the rest of the country.

The Turkish economic resurgence of the last decade was built on cheap loans and running up large deficits. It is already fading. Of course, they are still a long way off from the edge but inching forward each day.

Having said all this, they are an exception in the larger Islamic world.

 

[wiseone2]

Turkey faces its own set of challenges. If Erdogan continues for another decade, expect civil liberties and secularism to vanish. Also, an entire generation of Turks is being radicalized today as it serves the purpose of the ruling AKP. A vast schism is opening up between the urban, secular and Westernized elite of Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir and the rest of the country.

The Turkish economic resurgence of the last decade was built on cheap loans and running up large deficits. It is already fading. Of course, they are still a long way off from the edge but inching forward each day.

Having said all this, they are an exception in the larger Islamic world.

i see that there are a middle income country. they have sizeable debt. I am not sure what is the path forward

 

[Lurch Adams]

i see that there are a middle income country. they have sizeable debt. I am not sure what is the path forward

Reversal of the "Islamization by stealth" program under AKP. Restoration of freedom of speech. Reversal of the crackdown on opponents of the government including Gulenists.

On the economic front, maybe not that simple. Fiscal discipline is easy to preach but difficult to follow. But sooner or later the debt spiral will need to be tackled.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

There is only one root cause that has done considerable harm to Pak State.


The religious element and corruption are just byproduct of this aillment.


We need to visit the beginning first...


Under British Rule the hindu nationalism found a refuge to flourish...be it Arian Society or RSS same thing different covers...all the shapes the indians of the plains have taken or will take will hide only one Form.


The former rulers of india were in existential angst...they correctly saw the mob mentality of the plains' hindu extemism rising... roits and killing becoming more often. Mob gets its strength from numbers...


Different leaders of this former rulers of india tried to formulate different solutions...However, in absence of a overriding framework nothing substantial came about... apart from support for the Ottomans....

indian cogress tried and to some degree succeeded in creating an illusion of secular movement for takeover of British India... it was a stealth tactic compared to openly agressive RSS affiliated orgs.


Long story short... Professional/educated Class came together and Pak State came into being.

Pak peoples need to keep this moment in mind...


At this stage there was a sense of Statehood....committment and some vision. Not long term vision as the RSS/Congress had but there was a Statehood Vision for Pak.

When the First PM of Pak was assasinated...that Sense of Statehood also got killed.

50's and 60's were great decades because the Pak populace was still alive to there sense of Statehood...not because of any dictators....

71' created a deep trauma and internal establishment disorientation which is still evident till today.

From this time on you had feudal lords becoming socialists and generals trying to become democrats...utter chaos whithout any continuity of policy of State progress. Reactions and more stupid reactions..not plan and no vision.


AFG war really destroyed the deep Pak Statehood Spirit as the country was turned into play ground of the global opposing froces...

After that came the regional actors to play their proxy secterian wars and killing Pak citizens.

Go back in time and you will find NO secterian strife in Pak social fabric. This artificial.

2nd AFG war is still killing Pak citizens... and now you have indian empire on your western flank as well.


So the question is...how come a country which when came into being had NOTHING and is still standing despite all the injuries that its ruling fools have inflicted on it?


It is the DEEP Spirit of Pak Peoples and the Geo-position of the Pak State.

This State and Spirit has always been there from time immemorial....


All what needs to happen is the realisation of this FACT by Pak peoples and the True State Narrative of Pak to be written.

When that happens all the symptoms of religious hijacking and corruption will not have oxygem to breath.

The Spirit of Pak Peoples is in their DNA not because of any religious conviction or political party.

Never forget your Heritage that goes back Thousands of Years... Just claim it, own it and take back your stolen Heritage, your Birth Right!

A people who are not Alive to their Heritage are like leaves in water...powerless to be manipulated by elite..be it religious or political....

 

[Village life]

Beside these two things there is an other dilemma with Pakistan and that is, poor assessment of our establishment to wards gross root of those two problems, they hat many many chances to eliminate at least one of the problem,here they were not up to the task ,instead of burning that garbage they let that to accumulate and when there was a democracy they intentionally or unintentionally let that garbage to sprue and ingulf whole nation

 

[coffee_cup]

There is only one root cause that has done considerable harm to Pak State.


The religious element and corruption are just byproduct of this aillment.


We need to visit the beginning first...


Under British Rule the hindu nationalism found a refuge to flourish...be it Arian Society or RSS same thing different covers...all the shapes the indians of the plains have taken or will take will hide only one Form.


The former rulers of india were in existential angst...they correctly saw the mob mentality of the plains' hindu extemism rising... roits and killing becoming more often. Mob gets its strength from numbers...


Different leaders of this former rulers of india tried to formulate different solutions...However, in absence of a overriding framework nothing substantial came about... apart from support for the Ottomans....

indian cogress tried and to some degree succeeded in creating an illusion of secular movement for takeover of British India... it was a stealth tactic compared to openly agressive RSS affiliated orgs.


Long story short... Professional/educated Class came together and Pak State came into being.

Pak peoples need to keep this moment in mind...


At this stage there was a sense of Statehood....committment and some vision. Not long term vision as the RSS/Congress had but there was a Statehood Vision for Pak.

When the First PM of Pak was assasinated...that Sense of Statehood also got killed.

50's and 60's were great decades because the Pak populace was still alive to there sense of Statehood...not because of any dictators....

71' created a deep trauma and internal establishment disorientation which is still evident till today.

From this time on you had feudal lords becoming socialists and generals trying to become democrats...utter chaos whithout any continuity of policy of State progress. Reactions and more stupid reactions..not plan and no vision.


AFG war really destroyed the deep Pak Statehood Spirit as the country was turned into play ground of the global opposing froces...

After that came the regional actors to play their proxy secterian wars and killing Pak citizens.

Go back in time and you will find NO secterian strife in Pak social fabric. This artificial.

2nd AFG war is still killing Pak citizens... and now you have indian empire on your western flank as well.


So the question is...how come a country which when came into being had NOTHING and is still standing despite all the injuries that its ruling fools have inflicted on it?


It is the DEEP Spirit of Pak Peoples and the Geo-position of the Pak State.

This State and Spirit has always been there from time immemorial....


All what needs to happen is the realisation of this FACT by Pak peoples and the True State Narrative of Pak to be written.

When that happens all the symptoms of religious hijacking and corruption will not have oxygem to breath.

The Spirit of Pak Peoples is in their DNA not because of any religious conviction or political party.

Never forget your Heritage that goes back Thousands of Years... Just claim it, own it and take back your stolen Heritage, your Birth Right!

A people who are not Alive to their Heritage are like leaves in water...powerless to be manipulated by elite..be it religious or political....

Very well expressed bro!
We must cherish and promote our thousands years old heritage, without a doubt!
Pakistan is "the most resilient nation on earth" for a reason. Despite having problems, a tenth of which would be enough to undo any other country around the world, we are still taking them heads on and doing modestly well in terms of economy and rising middle class.

Long live the resilience of Pakistani nation!

PS: Just in case you didn't know, we have some shady foreign funded media outlets like DAWN, Tribune and Geo group (The News is one of their newspaper). They are very systematically promoting foreign agenda in Pakistan and being tolerated by the govt, because they also happened to be mostly Sharif/Zardari (in other words corruption in Pakistani society) supporters

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Very well expressed bro!
We must cherish and promote our thousands years old heritage, without a doubt!
Pakistan is "the most resilient nation on earth" for a reason. Despite having problems, a tenth of which would be enough to undo any other country around the world, we are still taking them heads on and doing modestly well in terms of economy and rising middle class.

Long live the resilience of Pakistani nation!

PS: Just in case you didn't know, we have some shady foreign funded media outlets like DAWN, Tribune and Geo group (The News is one of their newspaper). They are very systematically promoting foreign agenda in Pakistan and being tolerated by the govt, because they also happened to be mostly Sharif/Zardari (in other words corruption in Pakistani society) supporters

No force on Earth can destroy the Spirit of Ancient Peoples that you are, my young brother!

Feel it in your bones and claim your rightful future that so long denied to your great peoples.

As a matter of practice I do not read any MSM that goes for Pak media as well. All main stream media is geared towards earning money and making people dumb...so that they can easily be controlled.

All the very best to your beautiful country!!!

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Turkey faces its own set of challenges. If Erdogan continues for another decade, expect civil liberties and secularism to vanish. Also, an entire generation of Turks is being radicalized today as it serves the purpose of the ruling AKP. A vast schism is opening up between the urban, secular and Westernized elite of Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir and the rest of the country.

The Turkish economic resurgence of the last decade was built on cheap loans and running up large deficits. It is already fading. Of course, they are still a long way off from the edge but inching forward each day.

Having said all this, they are an exception in the larger Islamic world.

The infrastructure, living standard, technological & scientific prowess of Turkey is at the same level of a lot of European/Western nations now. And that's all that matters. Who cares about democracy or secular government when your people are living like kings.

May be we start treating Pakistan the way it treats Iraq and Syria ? start by stealing the Indus river waters.
Are you game Mr Kaptaan ??

Many have tried to make Pakistan like Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria & Libya. They have all failed.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Are you game Mr Kaptaan ??

I am game. But we can't play without asking the owners permission. China.

*Wondering what I am on about. Okay geography 101 for you. Indus headwaters (source) is in China. Flowing from China Indus merely passes for short while through IOK then moves through the entire length of Pakistan. Asides from the fact that you can't steal something that your "renting". There is the almost Herculean task of diverting the short interval in IOK that flows through deep gorge. If India can do it China can do it in doubletime.

Checkmate - mate !

 

[barbarosa]

The BIGGEST threat to Pakistan is liberal traitors within and corruption politicians. If we could get rid of them all by firing squad then Pakistan would be like Turkey on a bigger scale.

Sir India will never acknowledge your effort, but use these elements against Pakistan.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Sir India will never acknowledge your effort, but use these elements against Pakistan.

EXACTLY. So if we were all patriotic & allowed to publicly execute the traitors within it would strike fear into the hearts of all potential ones and they would think a million times before betraying the Fatherland.