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The soft, weak Chinese cite concerns for international law and due process

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The soft, weak Chinese cite concerns for international law and due process

Beijing considers but rejects drone-killing an elusive foreign killer hiding in the jungle claiming sovereignty issues and the need for a trial


A heinous act of wanton slaughter, committed on 5 October 2011, dominated Chinese news for months. Two Chinese cargo ships were found adrift on the Mekong River, a major trade route for China, near the Thai-Burmese border, with 13 Chinese crew members brutally killed, summarily stabbed or shot with their hands bound behind their backs and their mutilated bodies dumped in the water. The Chinese government suspended passenger and cargo traffic on the river, while the Chinese public was furious at the government's failure to protect against violence on the Mekong and "increasingly critical of government agencies not perceived as taking a strong enough stand to defend the country".

The suspected mastermind of the massacre was quickly named by the Chinese: Naw Kham, the Burmese leader of the largest drug trafficking gang in the so-called Golden Triangle, where the borders of Myanmar, Laos and Thailand converge. A major manhunt for Naw Kham ensued under the direction of Liu Yuejin, head of China's antinarcotics bureau in its Ministry of Public Security. But it proved exceedingly difficult to find him because he was hiding in the vast mountainous jungles of Laos, which he knew well and which had a network of loyalists to protect him that included, according the experts in the region, operatives within the Burmese and Thai armies and the Laotian security forces.

Moreover, the Chinese were limited by both political constraints and technological capabilities in what they could do in that region. The Global Times noted that "some analysts had even said the hunt for Naw Kham could be as difficult as the hunt for Bin Laden," while Chinese newspapers quoted others as saying that "the overseas manhunt was more difficult than that of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, in that the only preliminary clue [about Naw Kham] was a suspect portrait taken 20 years ago." On at least three occasions when the Chinese were convinced they had located him, they were unable to secure the cooperation of government and local police officials quickly enough or overcome the protection of local villagers, who engaged in firefights with police forces trying to apprehend him. That enabled Naw Kham to disappear across the border into the jungle of Myanmar.

As a result of these obstacles, the Global Times reported back in February, China seriously considered using a drone strike in Myanmar to kill him: "an unmanned aircraft to carry 20 kilograms of TNT to bomb the area". That option was rejected because, the report said, the Chinese were intent on capturing him alive and trying him in court. This morning, the New York Times provides more details on this decision-making process:

"The Chinese were so intent on catching up with Mr. Naw Kham that security forces considered using a drone to kill him.

"The drone idea was eventually abandoned even as Mr. Naw Kham outfoxed his pursuers in Myanmar's mountainous jungles, said Mr. Liu, a precise man with a photograph of himself at a Mao heritage site on his office wall.

"The Chinese news media reported that Mr. Liu's superiors had ordered that Mr. Naw Kham be captured alive. Mr. Liu, whose antinarcotics bureau runs a fleet of unarmed drones for surveillance in China's border areas, insisted that the idea was shelved because of legal restraints.

"'China using unmanned aircraft would have met with problems,' he said. 'My initial reaction was that this was not realistic because this relates to international and sovereignty issues."

What kind of weak, soft, overly legalistic government worries about trivial concerns like international law and "sovereignty issues" when it comes to drone-killing heinous murderers for whom capture is difficult? Why not just shoot Hellfire missiles wherever you think he might be hiding in weaker countries and kill him and anyone who happens to be near him? Or if you are able to find him, at least just riddle his skull with bullets, dump his corpse into the ocean, and then chant nationalistic slogans in the street and at your political conventions. Who would ever want to give a trial to such a heinous and savage foreign killer of your citizens, particularly if it means risking the lives of your soldiers to apprehend him?

What China did instead was conduct what the NYT this morning calls a "methodical and unyielding" law enforcement investigation over the course of six months. Using informants and following up on leads, they learned of Naw Kham's plans to escape to Laos. In April of last year, the Laotian police, acting in concert with the Chinese, apprehended him as he attempted to flee. He was quickly flown back to China and put on trial, which was nationally televised. In September, he pleaded guilty to the killings and was sentenced to death; after he withdrew his plea, his final appeal was rejected in December; and he was executed by lethal injection last month.

In contrast to the strong and just US - which not only boldly drone-kills whomever and wherever it wants without regard to irritating trivialities like sovereignty but even tried (unsuccessfully) to pressure the Afghan government to execute its accused "drug lords" with no trials - the weak and soft Chinese are actually celebrating their own impotence. As the New York Times put it in February: "'We didn't use China's military, and we didn't harm a single foreign citizen,' Mr. Liu bragged after the arrest in April 2012." Note the word "brag": the Times has to infuse something negative into the success of the Chinese in avoiding killing foreign civilians and relying on law enforcement processes rather than military strikes to apprehend an elusive killer.

Indeed, in reporting on this episode, the New York Times twice tried to depict it as proof of the growing Chinese menace. In February, it said that the mere possibility that China would use a drone strike "highlights China's increasing advances in unmanned aerial warfare, a technology dominated by the United States and used widely by the Obama administration for the targeted killing of terrorists" (by "terrorists", the Times means: people accused of being terrorists by the US government with no due process). Then this morning, the Times claims that China's apprehension of Naw Kham in cooperation with other governments shows, as the headline put it, that "Beijing Flaunts Cross-Border Clout in Search for Drug Lord" and that "the capture shows how China's law enforcement tentacles reach far beyond its borders into a region now drawn by investment and trade into China's orbit, and where the United States' influence is being challenged."

So even when China refuses to use weapons the US routinely uses, by citing precepts of international law, respect for the sovereignty of neighboring countries and at least the pretense of due process, this shows that China is a growing threat to US interests in the region. :taz: At some point, either China or Russia or someone else is going to start drone-killing people in other countries, and the only thing certain to happen is that US political and media circles will erupt with condemnation without the slightest sense of irony or shame (provided that it's done by a government that is not a US client). :lol: The fact that China's restraint is depicted in US media circles as evidence of the growing threat it poses highlights the mindset that drives this. :disagree:

There are, of course, ample reasons to treat Chinese claims with great suspicion. One expert quoted in the Times speculated that China's restraint may have been due to its lack of confidence in its drone technology (that sounds unconvincing: if they wanted to just kill him and didn't trust their drones, they could have used a fighter jet). :agree: Either way, he noted that if they don't already have full drone-killing capability they will shortly. When that happens, he said, "they surely will have America's armed drone practice as a convenient cover for legitimating their own practice". But at least for now, America stands alone as the only country to embrace this model.


The soft, weak Chinese cite concerns for international law and due process | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
 
BBC News - China executes foreign killers of Mekong fishermen

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Four foreign men have been executed in China for the murder of 13 Chinese fishermen on the Mekong river in 2011, after being paraded on state TV.

CCTV News broadcast live footage of the men being taken from their cells to the execution site, though it did not show the moment of death.

Among the prisoners was Naw Kham, a Burmese man thought to have been one of the most powerful warlords in the Golden Triangle of Thailand, Laos and Burma.

Naw Kham as well as several other SE Asian Drug lords were extradited to China, and then summarily executed.

This happened over a month ago.
 
I'm not proud of the Chinese government but one thing that they have to be praised for is their hard stance against the bureaucratic and irrational notions of jurisdictions when it comes to crimes committed by foreigners.

China doesn't give a **** about where you're from when you commit a crime. Contrast that with the 'soft treatment of the Italian marines by India.
 

"The Chinese were so intent on catching up with Mr. Naw Kham that security forces considered using a drone to kill him.

"The drone idea was eventually abandoned even as Mr. Naw Kham outfoxed his pursuers in Myanmar's mountainous jungles, said Mr. Liu, a precise man with a photograph of himself at a Mao heritage site on his office wall.


Ah! our beloved spin doctor gpit, I almost fell for your propaganda. Drones are useless in dense jungles and thus the Chinese were forced to resort to more traditional methods to kill Naw Kham. For we all know Chinese courts or a bullet in the head would have been equally fatal for Mr Kham. :china:

Nice try gpit..but no cigar.
 
Ah! our beloved spin doctor gpit, I almost fell for your propaganda. Drones are useless in dense jungles and thus the Chinese were forced to resort to more traditional methods to kill Naw Kham. For we all know Chinese courts or a bullet in the head would have been equally fatal for Mr Kham. :china:

Nice try gpit..but no cigar.

did you expect anything else from our resident seditious Chinese american AKA @gpit ?

Not only that BUT the comparison is the biggest joke. How many drug dealers that have massacred 100's of people, escaped the US and did we drone them. As I said in the other thread where the same article is posted.

Too simplistic and an apple vs oranges comparison. US's bad guys if were Chinese's bad guys- china would do the same if capable.

We kill terrorists via drones not drug lords. We have captured, tried and jailed several drug lords from other countries.

we have a not so perfect but a way way more independent judicial system
 
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I'm not proud of the Chinese government but one thing that they have to be praised for is their hard stance against the bureaucratic and irrational notions of jurisdictions when it comes to crimes committed by foreigners.

China doesn't give a **** about where you're from when you commit a crime. Contrast that with the 'soft treatment of the Italian marines by India.

Learn the basic distinction between how the law applies to manslaughter vs 1st degree murder. stop putting any country down if you don't know the basic tenets of law. The Marines killing was not a crime committed while trying to defend their own criminal activity on the high seas like the Chinese drug lord. Rather- It was an error in judgement ( albeit still a crime) , in doing what they thought was " in defense of the ship being hijacked".
 
Learn the basic distinction between how the law applies to manslaughter vs 1st degree murder. stop putting any country down if you don't know the basic tenets of law. The Marines killing was not a crime committed while trying to defend their own criminal activity on the high seas like the Chinese drug lord. Rather- It was an error in judgement ( albeit still a crime) , in doing what they thought was " in defense of the ship being hijacked".

How about you stop pretending to know everything about international law and its protocols, and realize the simple point that the Italians were allowed to leave despite being on trial and in custody so that they can contribute two votes to the Italian elections. Two votes. Can you really imagine China doing that?

The Italians must have been pissed their pants laughing when they found out the Indian Supreme Court gave them leave.
 
How about you stop pretending to know everything about international law and its protocols, and realize the simple point that the Italians were allowed to leave despite being on trial and in custody so that they can contribute two votes to the Italian elections. Two votes. Can you really imagine China doing that?

The Italians must have been pissed their pants laughing when they found out the Indian Supreme Court gave them leave.

They were allowed just like some bailable offenses are and it comes with stipulations. You chose to compare the capture and killing of a drug lord in china to the marines, I was simply pointing out the differences between the two criminal activities. I don't need to be an expert to know the differences between the two cases . it's common sense.

Can I imagine China doing what? Sending off their convicted criminals to another county? I don't know I seem to remember a blind guy who they even convicted yet allowed him to go to the US , with no hopes of ever coming.
 
They were allowed just like some bailable offenses are and it comes with stipulations. You chose to compare the capture and killing of a drug lord in china to the marines, I was simply pointing out the differences between the two criminal activities.

Can I imagine China doing what? Sending off their convicted criminals to another county? I don't know I seem to remember a blind guy who they even convicted yet allowed him to go to the US , with no hopes of ever coming.

No, imagine China bailing two foreigners who are on trial for a serious crime for such a weak excuse.
 
They were allowed just like some bailable offenses are and it comes with stipulations. You chose to compare the capture and killing of a drug lord in china to the marines, I was simply pointing out the differences between the two criminal activities. I don't need to be an expert to know the differences between the two cases . it's common sense.

Can I imagine China doing what? Sending off their convicted criminals to another county? I don't know I seem to remember a blind guy who they even convicted yet allowed him to go to the US , with no hopes of ever coming.

They allowed him to go because they don't want him to come back. He's not charismatic, not smart. Just some blind dude. Who cares. Besides he didn't kill people. Pissing people off is not a crime yet.
 
They allowed him to go because they don't want him to come back. He's not charismatic, not smart. Just some blind dude. Who cares. Besides he didn't kill people. Pissing people off is not a crime yet.

if it was not crime then why was he under house arrest and why did the Chinese govt make such a huge issue when he sought shelter in the US embassy?
 
American propaganda

At the end of the day, China captured a criminal without harming other countries' sovereignty or stoking tensions. Contrast that with the U.S. Not only do you kill thousands of innocent civilians, including children, you start a war with a whole culture, earn yourself a perpetually negative reputation throughout the Middle East, and definitely breach international law in far more ways than one.
 
No, imagine China bailing two foreigners who are on trial for a serious crime for such a weak excuse.

Can you imagine China giving you the same freedoms you enjoy in India? How are you comparing China's system to India? Do you want their judicial system and the rights or lack of it they afford their citizens to happen in India? You have a system that allows bails depending on the crime and circumstances. You want to tear that democratic system down for this one case , so in future all / no citizens ever enjoy such rights in India?

At the end of the day, China captured a criminal without harming other countries' sovereignty or stoking tensions. Contrast that with the U.S. Not only do you kill thousands of innocent civilians, including children, you start a war with the mujahideen, earn yourself a perpetually negative reputation throughout the Middle East, and definitely breach international law in far more ways than one.

Show me a war where you have a better track record than us in taking precautions to avoid civilian casualty? It's the terrorist who bomb and kill their own in markets and public spaces Yes we start a war with terrorists- you rather we sympathize with them? Middle east , most of it, ones that matter have great relationships with the US.
 
Can you imagine China giving you the same freedoms you enjoy in India? How are you comparing China's system to India? Do you want their judicial system and the rights or lack of it they afford their citizens to happen in India? You have a system that allows bails depending on the crime and circumstances. You want to tear that democratic system down for this one case , so in future all / no citizens ever enjoy such rights in India?

That's an entirely different matter. In Hong Kong these are all contentious issues that we acknowledge must change immediately.

What I'm saying is that India is far too soft in international diplomacy. China on the other hand has a very hard hand. Italy toyed around with India, but India let that happen to themselves.
 
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