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The rise and fall of Egyptian Arabic

Interestingly enough Egyptian Arabic is not the only one that pronounces ج this way. Yemenis (one of the most conservative Arabic dialect clusters) do it too by large. Somalians of Arab origin or Somalis speaking Arabic (Arabic is the second language of Somalia and the first in some parts of the country) they do the same. Oman does it too.



A bit history;

The pronunciation of jiim as [g] is widespread even today in Yemen and Oman. The Cairo area was settled early on by Arabian tribes from that area. That is the probable origin of this phenomenon. One thing you may not have considered is that this feature was historically restricted to Cairo and perhaps other larger cities in lower Egypt. In the countryside and especially in Upper Egypt (which is where the influence of pre-Islamic languages would be expected to linger the longest), the traditional pronunciation has always been [dj]. It is notable in this regard that the tribes that settled in Upper Egypt in the Middle Ages were from central and western Arabia (Mudhar and Rabi'a), as opposed to the Yemenite tribes that settled in Al-Fustat (latter-day Cairo).

Exactly and it is a good thing. I hope that the Mashriq will rise to and the Maghreb. It adds richness. Personally I am happy about this. KSA will follow as well not that cinema, music and real cultural industries are slowly returning from the age of the imbeciles (Sahwa) thanks to brave, necessary and bold decisions by MbS. I see a great potential but Egypt due to its historical role in the modern era as an Arab pioneer in this regard and due to population (alone) and potential will always be there. So no, Egyptian Arabic is not dying it is just not as powerful as before. Not necessarily a bad thing.



Kabyle are Berbers by large with a minority of Arab-Berber mixtures. Most of them use Berber as their mother tongue. I am talking about an educated Algerian from Algiers or Constantine. Yes, I will understand them. Same with an Moroccan from Rabat or Casablanca as well as a Hassaniya speaker from Southern Morocco or Southern Algeria.

However I get what you mean. I have occasional difficulties understanding dialects of tribes in Arabia (isolated mountain communities or desert communities) or some very old people talking in archaic dialects. However we are talking about the average standard here and not the exceptions.

Even the Arabic spoken by many Arab diaspora in Europe has its own dialect and slang that many locals back home would have a hard time always understanding. But overall, by far most Arabs can understand each other if they know fus7a (just relative exposure is enough) and have not been living in some cave without too many problems.

@TheCamelGuy please add something here based on our past discussion about this and your personal experience living in the diaspora.

Well, if you say so.
But with what I saw... An Arab in ME, and for my case someone from Bahrain and another from Iraq...couldn't understand the meaning of a discussion with an Algerian neither a Moroccan.

ps: it has nothing to do with being educated or not...
as for Kabyle reference... it was based on "accent"... since Kabyle can speak Algerian dialect...
 
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Well, if you say so.
But with what I saw... An Arab in ME, and for my case someone from Bahrain and another from Iraq...couldn't understand the meaning of a discussion with an Algerian neither a Moroccan.

That depends on their exposure to Moroccan and Algerian. Since the absolute backbone of Moroccan and Algerian Arabic is composed of fus7a (as with every Arabic dialect), mastering the dialects (understanding them) is not such a big challenge as you make it out to be. Vice versa as well. If it was, Arabs of the past (even nowadays) would not have such an easy time understanding Egyptian Arabic whether they are from Morocco or Oman.

You should really speak with the user @TheCamelGuy about it. He is a young Iraqi (origin) based in Europe that just learned to read and write in Arabic not long ago (as he told me/us here) and he as well told that he only has a problem with understanding Moroccan dialect but that it can be easily picked up for him as well.

P.S. Not every person is great at mastering languages or dialects to begin with. For instance I have an easy time doing it due to upbringing and speaking more than just Arabic. I know people from Iraq or KSA that have a hard time understanding dialects of neighbors which is outrageous in my eyes. That's like if a speaker from Newcastle had a hard time understanding London slang. A joke in my eyes but such people exist out there.
 
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Try to speak with an Algerian... and tell me if you understood the meaning of his sentence... Let alone if it's a Kabyle that speak with you... We, as next door guy...don't even quite understand each others... let alone those in ME...
LMAO true. I cant pick one single freaking word specially if i play somgs by that algerian guy from song desert rose. Algerian, tunisian ,morrocan arabic have huge french influence.

Btw another very difficult dialect is kuwaiti. Man it gives me headache.

Also i always loved the fact that egyptian say jamal as gamal when sound "ga" doesnt exist in arabic alphabets.
 
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LMAO true. I cant pick one single freaking word specially if i play somgs by that algerian guy from song desert rose. Algerian, tunisian ,morrocan arabic have huge french influence.

Btw another very difficult dialect is kuwaiti. Man it gives me headache.

Also i always loved the fact that egyptian say jamal as gamal when sound "ga" doesnt exist in arabic alphabets.

That sound exists in Arabic. Egyptians got it from Yemeni and Omani tribes that settled Northern Egypt and funded modern-day Cairo. Hence their pronunciation. Already explained by me in post 13.

Maghrebi Arabic does not have a ton of French loanwords. French (at their longest) had a 132 year old presence in Algeria (3 generations). It lasted much less in Morocco and Tunisia. French loanwords only influenced the Maghrebi dialects of the North, not the conservative dialects like Hassaniya in the South since French presence was reduced to the coastal areas mostly.

In Moroccan Arabic there are more Spanish loanwords probably and 1/4 of all Spanish vocabulary derives from Arabic interestingly.

Loanwords are loanwords. They can easily be removed and replaced by "original" words. This is what happened with Shami, Iraqi and Hijazi Arabic dialects by large in the past 100 years. They returned to their "origins".

You make it sound like Maghrebi Arabic dialects are dialects of the French language lol. That is utter nonsense.
 
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Interestingly enough Egyptian Arabic is not the only one that pronounces ج this way. Yemenis (one of the most conservative Arabic dialect clusters) do it too by large. Somalians of Arab origin or Somalis speaking Arabic (Arabic is the second language of Somalia and the first in some parts of the country) they do the same. Oman does it too.



A bit history;

The pronunciation of jiim as [g] is widespread even today in Yemen and Oman. The Cairo area was settled early on by Arabian tribes from that area. That is the probable origin of this phenomenon. One thing you may not have considered is that this feature was historically restricted to Cairo and perhaps other larger cities in lower Egypt. In the countryside and especially in Upper Egypt (which is where the influence of pre-Islamic languages would be expected to linger the longest), the traditional pronunciation has always been [dj]. It is notable in this regard that the tribes that settled in Upper Egypt in the Middle Ages were from central and western Arabia (Mudhar and Rabi'a), as opposed to the Yemenite tribes that settled in Al-Fustat (latter-day Cairo).

Exactly and it is a good thing. I hope that the Mashriq will rise to and the Maghreb. It adds richness. Personally I am happy about this. KSA will follow as well not that cinema, music and real cultural industries are slowly returning from the age of the imbeciles (Sahwa) thanks to brave, necessary and bold decisions by MbS. I see a great potential but Egypt due to its historical role in the modern era as an Arab pioneer in this regard and due to population (alone) and potential will always be there. So no, Egyptian Arabic is not dying it is just not as powerful as before. Not necessarily a bad thing.



Kabyle are Berbers by large with a minority of Arab-Berber mixtures. Most of them use Berber as their mother tongue. I am talking about an educated Algerian from Algiers or Constantine. Yes, I will understand them. Same with an Moroccan from Rabat or Casablanca as well as a Hassaniya speaker from Southern Morocco or Southern Algeria.

However I get what you mean. I have occasional difficulties understanding dialects of tribes in Arabia (isolated mountain communities or desert communities) or some very old people talking in archaic dialects. However we are talking about the average standard here and not the exceptions.

Even the Arabic spoken by many Arab diaspora in Europe has its own dialect and slang that many locals back home would have a hard time always understanding. But overall, by far most Arabs can understand each other if they know fus7a (just relative exposure is enough) and have not been living in some cave without too many problems.

@TheCamelGuy please add something here based on our past discussion about this and your personal experience living in the diaspora.

I don't see bad thing in such a decline, there's no need to maintain this cultural influence from other Arab states within the Arab world. The 'leader of the Arabs' concept which was upheld by Egypt's rulers (and Iraq during its Ba'ath rule) both place an emphasis on their own culture and history. Their goals weren't purely Arab unification but hegemony over the Arab world which did not result in unifying but rather the opposite. There is no clear 'leader' of the Arab world, whilst there are always certain Arab states that at certain times are economically, industrially, culturally pr scientifically more advanced than others, we remain with quite a few large states that hold sizeable populations.

I'm for enriching local dialects whilst maintaining the ability to communicate within the Arab world which is unlikely to fade. Being from the diaspora I do not know fusha myself but have no trouble understanding most dialects. I won't switch to another dialect when talking to a Syrian, Lebanese etc. as that would result in major failure on my part, (tried before).


That depends on their exposure to Moroccan and Algerian. Since the absolute backbone of Moroccan and Algerian Arabic is composed of fus7a (as with every Arabic dialect), mastering the dialects (understanding them) is not such a big challenge as you make it out to be. Vice versa as well. If it was, Arabs of the past (even nowadays) would not have such an easy time understanding Egyptian Arabic whether they are from Morocco or Oman.

You should really speak with the user @TheCamelGuy about it. He is a young Iraqi (origin) based in Europe that just learned to read and write in Arabic not long ago (as he told me/us here) and he as well told that he only has a problem with understanding Moroccan dialect but that it can be easily picked up for him as well.

P.S. Not every person is great at mastering languages or dialects to begin with. For instance I have an easy time doing it due to upbringing and speaking more than just Arabic. I know people from Iraq or KSA that have a hard time understanding dialects of neighbors which is outrageous in my eyes. That's like if a speaker from Newcastle had a hard time understanding London slang. A joke in my eyes but such people exist out there.

I'd say it depends on who you ask whether he/she can communicate with other Arab dialects. You will find many similarities when it comes to Arabic understanding of a certain diaspora. Being part of the Iraqi diaspora in the Netherlands I will be able to communicate fluently with fellow Iraqis, especially those in the diaspora. Communicating with natives of the ME (non-Iraq) is also not an issue for most parts. Certain dialects I find harder to understand, it starts with Lebanese and Egyptian which I can understand quite well but not as good as Jordanian, Syrian and GCC states. Moroccan and Algerian are not understandable for me, I don't attempt it either. Perhaps for Iraqis born in the ME it is understandable, I fall in a different category when it comes to Arabic knowledge. Ask me fusha and I won't be able to go further either. However I can get around with Arabic throughout the entire Arab world as a tourist which only needs basic skills for that to start with, that alone is a great ability to have.
 
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I don't see bad thing in such a decline, there's no need to maintain this cultural influence from other Arab states within the Arab world. The 'leader of the Arabs' concept which was upheld by Egypt's rulers (and Iraq during its Ba'ath rule) both place an emphasis on their own culture and history. Their goals weren't purely Arab unification but hegemony over the Arab world which did not result in unifying but rather the opposite. There is no clear 'leader' of the Arab world, whilst there are always certain Arab states that at certain times are economically, industrially, culturally pr scientifically more advanced than others, we remain with quite a few large states that hold sizeable populations.

I'm for enriching local dialects whilst maintaining the ability to communicate within the Arab world which is unlikely to fade. Being from the diaspora I do not know fusha myself but have no trouble understanding most dialects. I won't switch to another dialect when talking to a Syrian, Lebanese etc. as that would result in major failure on my part, (tried before).




I'd say it depends on who you ask whether he/she can communicate with other Arab dialects. You will find many similarities when it comes to Arabic understanding of a certain diaspora. Being part of the Iraqi diaspora in the Netherlands I will be able to communicate fluently with fellow Iraqis, especially those in the diaspora. Communicating with natives of the ME (non-Iraq) is also not an issue for most parts. Certain dialects I find harder to understand, it starts with Lebanese and Egyptian which I can understand quite well but not as good as Jordanian, Syrian and GCC states. Moroccan and Algerian are not understandable for me, I don't attempt it either. Perhaps for Iraqis born in the ME it is understandable, I fall in a different category when it comes to Arabic knowledge. Ask me fusha and I won't be able to go further either. However I can get around with Arabic throughout the entire Arab world as a tourist which only needs basic skills for that to start with, that alone is a great ability to have.
if u were raised in iraq how come u never lesrnt fus7ha at school? Btw really liked ur comment very nicely put.

That sound exists in Arabic. Egyptians got it from Yemeni and Omani tribes that settled Northern Egypt and funded modern-day Cairo. Hence their pronunciation. Already explained by me in post 13.

Maghrebi Arabic does not have a ton of French loanwords. French (at their longest) had a 132 year old presence in Algeria (3 generations). It lasted much less in Morocco and Tunisia. French loanwords only influenced the Maghrebi dialects of the North, not the conservative dialects like Hassaniya in the South since French presence was reduced to the coastal areas mostly.

In Moroccan Arabic there are more Spanish loanwords probably and 1/4 of all Spanish vocabulary derives from Arabic interestingly.

Loanwords are loanwords. They can easily be removed and replaced by "original" words. This is what happened with Shami, Iraqi and Hijazi Arabic dialects by large in the past 100 years. They returned to their "origins".

You make it sound like Maghrebi Arabic dialects are dialects of the French language lol. That is utter nonsense.
I hadnot read even first post when ireplied to the thread. Had only read hannibals post n quoted him.

So i now iwent thru it. Well i mever said "maghrebi arabic" are dialects of french , you assumed that on ur own but i personally felt they are like 50 pc french and may be spanish influenced with rest 50 pc being arabic.

In colloquial arabic standard garmmar rules are not followed.

Anyways , u assumed my post was mocking dialects or something. Nothing like that, iwas just sharing observations. As of loanwords i see nothing wrong with absorbing loanwords, specially in cas of arabic language, it has been around for over 1500 years so few loanwords is not really goin to damage a language.

As of dialects then colonial influences or many other factors can affect them. Its fine it hardly matters.

As of the article its basically about hegemony of egyptian dialect due to their massive film industry which has declined now as other arab states own media houses and local film industries grew bigger.
 
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No longer the voice of the Arabs
The rise and fall of Egyptian Arabic


Once the lingua franca of the Arab world, Egypt's dialect is in decline along with the country's cultural and political leadership

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Jan 31st 2018
by A.V.

THE END of January marks the start of the Cairo International Book Fair, the largest gathering of its kind in the Arab world. Writers and readers from all over the region meet to swap tomes and discuss this year’s theme: “soft power, how?” A good question, especially for Egyptians. After all, the country’s distinctive dialect once ruled across the region. Its decline speaks to the restless state of the modern Middle East, and the decline in Egypt’s influence over it today.

Arabic is sometimes considered a language family, rather than a single language. Education and writing is in “modern standard” Arabic, but each region has its own distinct spoken variety, and those dialects separated by enough distance are not mutually comprehensible. They differ at every level from grammar to vocabulary to pronunciation. (Egyptian is perhaps most easily distinguished by its use of a g-sound where most other dialects have a j.) Like all of the Arabic vernaculars, Egypt’s is richly infused with local history. Sit down at a Cairo café and the waiter might greet you as basha, borrowed from Turkish pasha and the Ottoman conquest. Ask for a fattura (invoice), or buy a pair of guanti (gloves), and you are using Italian, left behind by a large community that lived in Egypt for over a century. Greek words like tarabeza (table, from trapeza) are common for similar reasons.

From the 1940s, people all over the Arab world grew used to Egyptian. Generously funded by the state, the Egyptian cinema industry was the third biggest on earth in the 1950s. Stars like Faten Hamama and Hend Rostom made crowds from Tripoli to Damascus laugh and cry. Egyptian music was just as popular. Umm Kulthum (picture below) was so famous her monthly radio concerts prompted shopkeepers to close their stores and tune in. It helped that many songs touched on themes like anti-colonialism that struck a chord across the Arab world.

This is no accident: pan-Arab nationalism helped push Egyptian dialect. Flush from victory in the 1956 Suez crisis, and keen to promote Egyptian leadership, Gamal Abdel Nasser (pictured, top), then president, sent hundreds of teachers to Algeria, hoping the locals would dump French and its imperialist overtones (they would have taught standard Arabic, but spoken Egyptian). Nasser himself became known throughout the Middle East for his magnetic speeches on Voice of the Arabs, a Cairo radio station. Though he led the pan-Arab movement, supposedly dedicated to bashing down the differences between Arabs, Nasser used Egyptian dialect to explain highfalutin ideas more simply. When he died in 1970, Egyptian speech was easily the most widely understood across the Arab world, from the Atlantic to the Persian Gulf.

Egyptians are still proud of their dialect, and it enjoys more exposure than its cousins elsewhere in the Arab world. While news bulletins are typically in formal Arabic, raucous commentators bicker about politics in Egyptian. This can partly be explained by education. With dismal schools, and illiteracy stuck at 24% , many Cairenes struggle to use formal Arabic. Some linguists even suggest teaching children dialect in school to improve flagging standards.

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This is not the whole story, though. After all, even educated Egyptian politicians happily sprinkle debates with more dialect than their counterparts in the Gulf or Morocco. Writers do too. Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Ahmed Fouad Negm, a poet, was famous for using dialect in his pithy putdowns of Egyptian politicians. Contemporary writers are following in their path. Tamim Al-Barghouti, another poet, is famous for his biting Egyptian verse. Enas Haleem, a novelist, recently used Egyptian dialect in “Under The Bed”, a short story collection. For its part, this year’s Cairo International Book Fair is honouring Magdy Abdel Rahim, who died last year, and his wide contribution to colloquial Egyptian poetry.

The internet offers yet more chances for Egyptians to explore their vernacular. Ghada Abdel Aal, a pharmacist and writer, started blogging about her love life in colloquial Arabic. She went on to turn her stories into a book, and then a television sitcom. YouTube is another powerful tool. One of the funniest channels is Egyptoon, a show featuring Sawsan and Hamada, her long-suffering boyfriend. “You are everything in my life!” Hamada cries, using the classic Egyptian phrase kula haga (everything). Egyptian Arabic even has its own Wikipedia. This is unique for an Arabic dialect, and controversial for those who think that playing up the dialects is a way of intentionally or unintentionally dividing the Arabs.

But if the internet offers a new home for Egyptian, it does the same for other dialects. Their parents may have been stuck with Voice of the Arabs, but young Palestinians and Jordanians can blog or podcast in their own words. A broader collapse in pan-Arabism, alongside that of Egyptian power, hardly helps. “The Arab world is very fractured now,” notes Jonathan Featherstone, a specialist in Egyptian Arabic at the University of Edinburgh. “You don’t have the same unity that you had before.”

This is reflected in Arab culture. Syrian soaps like “Bab Al-Hara” (“The Neighbourhood Gate”) are hugely successful. Blockbuster Turkish shows are being dubbed into Syrian Arabic, too. Arab music has gone the same way. A recent Arab top-ten list featured just one Egyptian song, by Mahmoud El Esseily and Mahmoud Ellithy. The top spot went to Noor Alzien, who sang using the guttural q of his native Iraq. Satellite television helps shoot different dialects to fame, as well. Mohammed Assaf went from a Gaza refugee camp to mega-stardom by winning Arab Idol, a talent show. He sang in his Palestinian colloquial Arabic, proudly telling his audience to “raise the kufiyah!”

Though Egyptian cultural exports have not disappeared—it is still easily the largest Arab country by population—they have certainly slumped. In 2013, the Dubai International Film Festival made a list of the top 100 Arabic films. Thirty-five Egyptian films from the pre-1970s “golden age” made the cut, but only three modern Egyptian movies managed. Some cinemagoers grumble that today's Egyptian cinema emphasises glamour and women over plot.

Egyptians who could get more exposure overseas are not helped by their government. Ramy Essam, a singer, became famous throughout the Arab world for his revolutionary anthems (notably “Bread, Freedom, Social Justice”). But after getting tortured by police, he fled to Sweden. Bassem Youssef, a comedian, suffered a similar fate. Despite gaining massive audiences with his satirical rants in Egyptian slang, he ended up in Los Angeles following pressure from the Abdel-Fattah al-Sisi regime. Amr Jamal, a translator from Cairo, despairs at these struggles: “Now we are swimming in mud,” he says. A pity—and a mark of how far Egypt has slipped from the rich optimism of Umm Kulthum and Voice of the Arabs.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2018/01/no-longer-voice-arabs
Even old egyptian films were gamorized with women wearing calf length dresses and deep necklines but in boh men and women there was a huge focus on art and in showcasing good acting skills.

Now all that dominates their media are super glamorous women flaunting cleavges, , tattooed eyebrows, with 20cm thick layers of makeup and less empahsis on histrionics and craft. But then i wasnt criticizing just sharing I agree with his bit from the article.
 
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I don't see bad thing in such a decline, there's no need to maintain this cultural influence from other Arab states within the Arab world. The 'leader of the Arabs' concept which was upheld by Egypt's rulers (and Iraq during its Ba'ath rule) both place an emphasis on their own culture and history. Their goals weren't purely Arab unification but hegemony over the Arab world which did not result in unifying but rather the opposite. There is no clear 'leader' of the Arab world, whilst there are always certain Arab states that at certain times are economically, industrially, culturally pr scientifically more advanced than others, we remain with quite a few large states that hold sizeable populations.

I'm for enriching local dialects whilst maintaining the ability to communicate within the Arab world which is unlikely to fade. Being from the diaspora I do not know fusha myself but have no trouble understanding most dialects. I won't switch to another dialect when talking to a Syrian, Lebanese etc. as that would result in major failure on my part, (tried before).




I'd say it depends on who you ask whether he/she can communicate with other Arab dialects. You will find many similarities when it comes to Arabic understanding of a certain diaspora. Being part of the Iraqi diaspora in the Netherlands I will be able to communicate fluently with fellow Iraqis, especially those in the diaspora. Communicating with natives of the ME (non-Iraq) is also not an issue for most parts. Certain dialects I find harder to understand, it starts with Lebanese and Egyptian which I can understand quite well but not as good as Jordanian, Syrian and GCC states. Moroccan and Algerian are not understandable for me, I don't attempt it either. Perhaps for Iraqis born in the ME it is understandable, I fall in a different category when it comes to Arabic knowledge. Ask me fusha and I won't be able to go further either. However I can get around with Arabic throughout the entire Arab world as a tourist which only needs basic skills for that to start with, that alone is a great ability to have.

Well put. Your example is a perfect example of how easy (relatively speaking) it is for an Arab who has not even been exposed to fus7a from birth (let alone been brought up in an Arab country where fus7a is obligatory - writing alone says hello), in this case Iraqi dialects only, to pick up other Arabic dialects and understand them. Now I understand fus7a fluent and write it fluently (as most Arabs do). Add to that my exposure to various Arabic dialects (Maghrebi dialects included), living in Europe (thus interacting with Maghrebi Arabs), and it's not that complicated for an Arab to master all major Arabic dialects (understanding it fluently by large with the exceptions of a few words and expressions here and there).

BTW most Arabs not from Morocco or Algeria (to an extend Tunisia as well) (not talking about Hasaniya speakers in Morocco or Algeria) can easily understand most Arabic dialects.

For instance people from KSA can understand all dialects of the GCC if they know one native dialect alone, Yemeni, Egyptian dialects (especially if from Hijaz but not only), Jordan (self-explanatory), Iraqi (self-explanatory), Syrian, Lebanese and Libyan (the least of all those that I have mentioned but still understand it due to Libyan Arabic having close ties with Najdi Arabic due to history and migrations).

That is without having any exposure to those dialects prior. Meaning that you will understand the basics of every conversation by large.

Of course within KSA and Iraq (examples as I am most familiar here) there are differences in dialects too. For instance the dialect of Jeddah is not the same like Riyadh. The dialect of Qatif is not the same as Abha. Or the dialect of Ha'il is not the same as the dialect of Wadi al-Dawasir but here it is more about accent and a few expressions/different words rather than anything else. Same story with the difference in Baghdadi, Basrawi, the accent of the Dulaim, the accents of Karbala and Najaf or Maslawi for instance. The biggest difference in Iraq between a dialect is between Maslawi and Basrawi but IMO it is once again a similar situation as the differences between dialects in KSA.


if u were raised in iraq how come u never lesrnt fus7ha at school? Btw really liked ur comment very nicely put.


I hadnot read even first post when ireplied to the thread. Had only read hannibals post n quoted him.

So i now iwent thru it. Well i mever said "maghrebi arabic" are dialects of french , you assumed that on ur own but i personally felt they are like 50 pc french and may be spanish influenced with rest 50 pc being arabic.

In colloquial arabic standard garmmar rules are not followed.

Anyways , u assumed my post was mocking dialects or something. Nothing like that, iwas just sharing observations. As of loanwords i see nothing wrong with absorbing loanwords, specially in cas of arabic language, it has been around for over 1500 years so few loanwords is not really goin to damage a language.

As of dialects then colonial influences or many other factors can affect them. Its fine it hardly matters.

As of the article its basically about hegemony of egyptian dialect due to their massive film industry which has declined now as other arab states own media houses and local film industries grew bigger.

With all due respect please don't bullshit here. 50% French? Are you joking? More like 5%. BTW I only replied to your claim of those all-encomposing (in your universe) French influences of the Arabic dialects spoken in Morocco and Algeria. For instance (for your information) the Hassaniya Arabic dialect spoken in almost all of Southern Morocco and Southern Algeria has close to zero French influences. That is also a Maghrebi dialect BTW.
 
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Well put. Your example is a perfect example of how easy (relatively speaking) it is for an Arab who has not even been exposed to fus7a from birth (let alone been brought up in an Arab country where fus7a is obligatory - writing alone says hello), in this case Iraqi dialects only, to pick up other Arabic dialects and understand them. Now I understand fus7a fluent and write it fluently (as most Arabs do). Add to that my exposure to various Arabic dialects (Maghrebi dialects included), living in Europe (thus interacting with Maghrebi Arabs), and it's not that complicated for an Arab to master all major Arabic dialects (understanding it fluently by large with the exceptions of a few words and expressions here and there).

BTW most Arabs not from Morocco or Algeria (to an extend Tunisia as well) (not talking about Hasaniya speakers in Morocco or Algeria) can easily understand most Arabic dialects.

For instance people from KSA can understand all dialects of the GCC if they know one native dialect alone, Yemeni, Egyptian dialects (especially if from Hijaz but not only), Jordan (self-explanatory), Iraqi (self-explanatory), Syrian, Lebanese and Libyan (the least of all those that I have mentioned but still understand it due to Libyan Arabic having close ties with Najdi Arabic due to history and migrations).

That is without having any exposure to those dialects prior. Meaning that you will understand the basics of every conversation by large.

Of course within KSA and Iraq (examples as I am most familiar here) there are differences in dialects too. For instance the dialect of Jeddah is not the same like Riyadh. The dialect of Qatif is not the same as Abha. Or the dialect of Ha'il is not the same as the dialect of Wadi al-Dawasir but here it is more about accent and a few expressions/different words rather than anything else. Same story with the difference in Baghdadi, Basrawi, the accent of the Dulaim, the accents of Karbala and Najaf or Maslawi for instance. The biggest difference in Iraq between a dialect is between Maslawi and Basrawi but IMO it is once again a similar situation as the differences between dialects in KSA.




With all due respect please don't bullshit here. 50% French? Are you joking? More like 5%.

If an Arab from ME, hear for the first time a Maghrebi dialect..; he will not understand it, or at least not at the extent to sustain a conversation.
Here you are telling us, you can understand and speaking normally...But it's because you learned it with time, whatever by hearing it or learning it...
So the question is not if it's difficult to learn it, because it isn't, but how a first timer will react to such dialects...

And with the few Arabs from ME, I encounter in my life...none were able to sustaina conversation with me, when speaking in TN... later on, they improved, that's a fact...but the first weeks, months, it was always " What does it mean? What are you saying etc..."
They do understand a part of it, but it's not enough to guess the meaning of the sentence/topic etc...

And yes, Maghrebis can understand almost any Dialect coming from ME... or at least sustain a conversation.
 
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If an Arab from ME, hear for the first time a Maghrebi dialect..; he will not understand it, or at least not at the extent to sustain a conversation.
Here you are telling us, you can understand and speaking normally...But it's because you learned it with time, whatever by hearing it or learning it...
So the question is not if it's difficult to learn it, because it isn't, but how a first timer will react to such dialects...

And with the few Arabs in Me, I encounter in my life...none were able to sustaina conversation with me, when speaking in TN... later on, they improved, that's a fact...but the first weeks, months, it was always " What does it mean? What are you saying etc..."

Read my most recent post. Post 24. Everything is explained there. We are "talking past each other" or what that expression is called in English.

@Ocean

How many French loanwords do you think those guys in Algeria use?



10 + million Banu Hilal members in Algeria alone.


I will give you a hint. Almost zero. Same story with Hassaniya speakers in Morocco.

Influences are confined to the coastal areas (where French presence was the largest) and French loanwords in Maghrebi Arabic (the dialects influenced by French) are not 50% of those Arabic dialects vocabulary (as you falsely claimed) but closer to 5%. That's fact.

As I wrote earlier, the reason that makes Arabic speakers not from Morocco and Algeria (Tunisia to an extent as well but less so here), have difficulty understanding dialects there (with the exception of Hassaniya and a few others) without prior exposure is the pace of the speech, foreign loanwords and the Berber influences. That's all. However an Arab familiar with an Arabic dialect (let alone written fus7a) can pick up those Maghrebi dialects relatively easily. It's not like learning Russian for instance as an Arabic speaker. Not even close. More like learning Catalan when you speak Spanish. I for instance can understand 90% of all spoken Catalan but I cannot say more than a few words. You can find a random video in Catalan and I can tell you what it is about easily.

Not because I could not learn it but because I have had no use for it. Same situation with Maghrebi Arabic. Most Arabs have no use for it as it is only confined to 3 Arab countries that are already "quite far" away from the "center" of the Arab world. But in Europe (among the Arab diaspora) I know a few Arabs from Iraq and Lebanon originally who have picked up Maghrebi dialect rather quickly.

They did it because the Arab diaspora in countries like France is dominated by people from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia. So they had no "choice" so to speak if they wanted to have a connection to the Arab world so to speak. I noticed something similar in Denmark where most Arabs are from Palestine or Iraq. Arabs not from there end up picking up those dialects when they are together, doing shopping, cultural gatherings, visiting mosque, coffee/tea shops, marriages and other gatherings. Same thing will probably happen with Syrian Arabic in Germany with time.
 
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