The Reign of Non-History

[dil_dil]

What he did to other people who are not from Mysore shouldn't matter. I mean Shivaji king was even bigger harami when it came to killing non-marathi people from other Indian states.

 

[scorpionx]

@kurup |

There are two sets of completely different arguments put forth by historians regarding the anti-Imperialist nationalism over powering Tipu’s religious bigotry and fundamentalist narrow-mindedness and vice verse.

The first set of belief, evidently coming from the Hindu Nationalists quarter draws their sustenance from Mir Hussain Ali Khan Kirmani’s Nishan-i-Hyderi translated from its original Persian version to English by Col. W. Miles in 1864. The contemporary accounts of English residents like William Kirkpatrick in Nizam’s court and Wilks suggesting Tipu as a religious fanatic and intolerant bigot never failed to fan the anti Islamic view points by Hindu Nationalist zealots. His alleged conversion of Coorg Hindus, pathological treatment of Kanarese Christians are often cited as his critical antagonism against Hindus and Christians. Biographies like Nishan-i-Hyderi projects Tipu as a protectorate of an Islamic state and a proud Muslim hero who despised the idolaters. The English political officers did not lose much time before they grabbed the opportunity to translate accounts like these as it is argued by the opposite set of belief that for the post 1857 British, Tipu was a necessary Muslim evil against the interest of British India and often projected him on the same line of Mahmud and Ghauris to nourish Hindu antagonism against him..

The opposite set of belief counter these arguments by two ways. The first method that has been adopted was to argue the intention of the British political officers and Muslim courtiers. The second method applied was a more vigorous examination of Tipu and his father Hyder Ali’s economic policies like direct revenue collection, abolition of land lord system (shambogs) and recognition of ryots,adoption of European Military doctrines, thus explaining the organic structure of their ruling system and defending it as their patriotic zeal against the British expansionism under which the Marathas, Sikhs and Mughals crumbled in quick succession. These set of historians also draws examples from Tipu’s close bondage with Sringeri Math, His military assistance against the Maratha invasion of the same institution, his treatment of Syrian Christians, Armenian merchants and economic leverage given to several Hindu Temples.

Tipu’s tenure (1782-99) has been extremely brief as compared to other Muslim monarchs but it had been full of exciting events and many revolutionary steps were adopted during this epoch ;However It is believed that his socio-economic and domestic as well international political moves deserves more scholarly attention and detailed examination. Before that it would be too immature and early to call him a religious bigot, intolerant tyrant or a hard core nationalist.

 

[kalanirnay]

@kurup |

There are two sets of completely different arguments put forth by historians regarding the anti-Imperialist nationalism over powering Tipu’s religious bigotry and fundamentalist narrow-mindedness and vice verse.

The first set of belief, evidently coming from the Hindu Nationalists quarter draws their sustenance from Mir Hussain Ali Khan Kirmani’s Nishan-i-Hyderi translated from its original Persian version to English by Col. W. Miles in 1864. The contemporary accounts of English residents like William Kirkpatrick in Nizam’s court and Wilks suggesting Tipu as a religious fanatic and intolerant bigot never failed to fan the anti Islamic view points by Hindu Nationalist zealots. His alleged conversion of Coorg Hindus, pathological treatment of Kanarese Christians are often cited as his critical antagonism against Hindus and Christians. Biographies like Nishan-i-Hyderi projects Tipu as a protectorate of an Islamic state and a proud Muslim hero who despised the idolaters. The English political officers did not lose much time before they grabbed the opportunity to translate accounts like these as it is argued by the opposite set of belief that for the post 1857 British, Tipu was a necessary Muslim evil against the interest of British India and often projected him on the same line of Mahmud and Ghauris to nourish Hindu antagonism against him..

The opposite set of belief counter these arguments by two ways. The first method that has been adopted was to argue the intention of the British political officers and Muslim courtiers. The second method applied was a more vigorous examination of Tipu and his father Hyder Ali’s economic policies like direct revenue collection, abolition of land lord system (shambogs) and recognition of ryots,adoption of European Military doctrines, thus explaining the organic structure of their ruling system and defending it as their patriotic zeal against the British expansionism under which the Marathas, Sikhs and Mughals crumbled in quick succession. These set of historians also draws examples from Tipu’s close bondage with Sringeri Math, His military assistance against the Maratha invasion of the same institution, his treatment of Syrian Christians, Armenian merchants and economic leverage given to several Hindu Temples.

Tipu’s tenure (1782-99) has been extremely brief as compared to other Muslim monarchs but it had been full of exciting events and many revolutionary steps were adopted during this epoch ;However It is believed that his socio-economic and domestic as well international political moves deserves more scholarly attention and detailed examination. Before that it would be too immature and early to call him a religious bigot, intolerant tyrant or a hard core nationalist.

Let us just consider facts and not spin stories and offer opinions as substitutes. Here they are,

1. In Tipu sultans kingdome in Karnataka Muslims, were exempted from house tax, commodity tax and also the levy on other items of household use. Those who were converted to islam, were also given similar tax exemptions.

2. Children of parents who converted to islam got free state education.

3. Tipu Sultan discontinued the practice of appointing Hindus in different administrative and military jobs as practised by his father, Hyder Ali Khan, in the past. During the entire period of sixteen years of his regime, Purnaiyya was the ONLY Hindu who had adorned the post of Dewan or minister under Tipu Sultan. In 1797 (two years before his death) among the 65 senior Government posts, not even a single Hindu was retained. ALL the Mustadirs were also Muslims. Among the 26 civil and military officers captured by the British in 1792 there were only 6 non-Muslims.

4. Tipu sultan declared Persian the State language in place of Kannada. ALL the records relating to tax revenue, were ordered to be written in Persian rather than in Marathi and Kannada as followed earlier.

5. He tried to rename most major cities into having muslim names Mangalapuri (Mangalore) was changed to Jalalabad, Cannanore (Kanwapuram) to Kusanabad, Bepur (Vaippura) to Sultanpatanam or Faruqui, Mysore to Nazarabad, Dharwar to Quarshed-Sawad, Gooty to Faiz-Hissar, Ratnagiri to Mustafabad, Dindigul to Khaliqabad, and Calicut (Kozhikode) to Islamabad. .......after his death all the names reverted back to their original names.


Now all this is what he did to his "own peopel" his beloved Karnataka .............i am not even mentioning the horrors he did on the Malayalees and the coorgies.

Follow is what Tipu Sultans OWN LETTER says,

In a letter (December 14, 1788), to his army commander in Calicut: “You should capture and kill all Hindus. Those below 20 years may be kept in prison and 5,000 from the rest should be killed hanging from treetops”.

Writing on January 19, 1790, to Badroos Saman Khan, he said: “I have achieved a great victory recently in Malabar and over four lakh Hindus were converted to Islam. I am now determined to march against the cursed Raman Nair.” Tipu issued orders in different parts of Malabar: “All means, truth or falsehood, fraud or force, should be employed to effect their (Hindu) universal conversion to Islam”



Now regarding his much touted charity to Sringeri temple,

Tipu’s largesse to Sringeri was borne out of his hatred for the Marathas – who had raided Sringeri. It was made some time in 1792-93, the same period that the British, the Marathas, and the Nizam crushed him in battle and obliterated his pride. In the run up to the Third Anglo-Mysore war, the Marathas had also raided Sringeri and looted it. This was thus the perfect opportunity for Tipu to curry the favour of the Sringeri Mutt by posing as the protector of Hinduism. It was politics, not religious tolerance that lay behind Tipu’s gifts to Sringeri.

Tipu did not destroy temples in and around Mysore because he could not afford to. It was simply realpolitik that made him refrain from this act—he could not antagonize the majority Hindus in his own backyard and risk rebellion.

However he did destory 80% of temples in Kerala I will post a list of temple destroyed later.

Spin it any way you want, but Tipu sultan always comes out looking like the WORST KIND OF RELIGIOUS BIGOT and a truly EVIL man. None of the "secular" argument will hold up to facts.

 

[scorpionx]

@kalanirnay

There is no spinning in my post; it is an attempt to explain two opposite arguments as asked by Kurup. Allegations and the counter arguments are there. It is up to individuals so far how to interprete them. For example, as you have mentioned about conversion of Hindus in Coorg; it was countered by the other set of historians as a propaganda piece. It is said that after half a century of the alleged conversion program, the population was found around 80,000; Among which only 5000 were found to be Muslim. Tipu's so called defenders even give credit to the abolition of slavery in the 1840s only after which the number of Muslim population surged. These are theories and counter theories that deserve more thorough analysis. Till then I would prefer to reserve my judgement about him.

 

[kalanirnay]

@kalanirnay

There is no spinning in my post; it is an attempt to explain two opposite arguments as asked by Kurup. Allegations and the counter arguments are there. It is up to individuals so far how to interprete them. For example, as you have mentioned about conversion of Hindus in Coorg; it was countered by the other set of historians as a propaganda piece. It is said that after half a century of the alleged conversion program, the population was found around 80,000; Among which only 5000 were found to be Muslim. Tipu's so called defenders even give credit to the abolition of slavery in the 1840s only after which the number of Muslim population surged. These are theories and counter theories that deserve more thorough analysis. Till then I would prefer to reserve my judgement about him.

I have NEVER mentioned ANYTHING about conversions of Hindus in Coorg. You should know better than to use Stawmen defence. LOL to see you get thanked for that.

I have only mentioned straightforward facts. I do not see how that can be interpreted any different.

All these horrors of Tipu sultan in a short span of 16 years ..........which was the TOTAL duration of his rule

 

[scorpionx]

I have NEVER mentioned ANYTHING about conversions of Hindus in Coorg. You should know better than to use Stawmen defence. LOL to see you get thanked for that.

I have only mentioned straightforward facts. I do not see how that can be interpreted any different.

All these horrors of Tipu sultan in a short span of 16 years ..........which was the TOTAL duration of his rule

You did mention about his "horror" on Coorgies. It is often preached by Hindu nationalists that he converted 80,000 Hindus there. If you were not hinting about this event, my bad then.

 

[Butchcassidy]

Untill I was using internet , I thought of him as a great patriot or it was portrayed as such by our education system .

I watched a DD Malayalam documentary few years back which explained religious bigotry he showcased in Kerala .

But it is accused that Marxist historians white washed his crimes and gave him a patriotic look .

Hence my question .



Can you explain a lit bit more ??

He used religion when it suited him. I bet he would have done genocide against muslims if he could have gained anything out of it. He fought the british because they wanted his kingdom and not because he was a freedom fighter. Oppotunism is a virtue if you are ambitious.

 

[kalanirnay]

You did mention about his "horror" on Coorgies. It is often preached by Hindu nationalists that he converted 80,000 Hindus there. If you were not hinting about this event, my bad then.

There is a record of Tipu sultan converting 10,000 coorgis to islam and they returning back to coorg and reverting back to Hinduism after the fall of Sreerangapatanam.

The horrors were the torture and killings.

Here is a list of TIPU SULTANS own LETTERS. Surely there is no confusion about the content.

1. Letter dated March 22, 1788, to Abdul Kadir: "Over 12,000 Hindus were 'honoured' with Islam. There were many Namboodiris (Brahmins) among them. This achievement should be widely publicised among the Hindus. There the local Hindus should be brought before you and then converted to Islam. No Namboodiri (Brahmin) should be spared. Also they should be confined there till the dress materials sent for them, reach you."

2. Letter dated December 14, 1788, to his Army Chief in Calicut: "I am sending two of my followers with Mir Hussain Ali. With their assistance, you should capture and kill all Hindus. Those below 20 may be kept in prison and 5,000 from the rest should be killed by hanging from the tree-tops. These are my orders."

3. Letter dated December 21, 1788, to Sheik Kutub: "242 Nairs are being sent as prisoners. Categorise them according to their social and family status. After honouring them with Islam, sufficient dress materials may be given to the men and their women."

4. Letter dated January 18, 1790, to Syed Abdul Dulai: "With the grace of Prophet Muhammed and Allah, almost all Hindus in Calicut are converted to Islam. Only a few are still not converted on the borders of Cochin State. I am determined to convert them also very soon. I consider this as Jehad to achieve that object."

5. Letter dated January 19, 1790, to Badroos Saman Khan: "Don't you know that I have achieved a great victory recently in Malabar and over 4 lakh Hindus were converted to Islam. I am now determined to march against that 'Cursed Raman Nair' without delay. (Reference is to Rama Varma Raja of Travancore State who was popularly known as Dharma Raja for giving shelter in his state to all those who fled Malabar.)

He used religion when it suited him. I bet he would have done genocide against muslims if he could have gained anything out of it. He fought the british because they wanted his kingdom and not because he was a freedom fighter. Oppotunism is a virtue if you are ambitious.

Non sense.

His father Hyder Ali was smart, ambitious and religious.

Tipu sultan was petty, evil. Bigoted and foolish.

Everything he EVER did was against Hindus and FOR muslims. His killings was motivated by the blinding need to convert and declare muslim superiority.

 

[scorpionx]

@kalanirnay

Neither I deny nor I agree about both the views about Tipu's personal character. I just wanted to show both sides of arguments to Kurup and that's all. Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe here.

 

[kalanirnay]

@kalanirnay

Neither I deny nor I agree about both the views about Tipu's personal character. I just wanted to show both sides of arguments to Kurup and that's all. Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe here.

If I wanted to talk about "belief" and what to "believe" I would have spoken about religion, not History. But continue sitting on the fence. One day you might need to make up your mind.

 

[Butchcassidy]

There is a record of Tipu sultan converting 10,000 coorgis to islam and they returning back to coorg and reverting back to Hinduism after the fall of Sreerangapatanam.

The horrors were the torture and killings.

Here is a list of TIPU SULTANS own LETTERS. Surely there is no confusion about the content.

1. Letter dated March 22, 1788, to Abdul Kadir: "Over 12,000 Hindus were 'honoured' with Islam. There were many Namboodiris (Brahmins) among them. This achievement should be widely publicised among the Hindus. There the local Hindus should be brought before you and then converted to Islam. No Namboodiri (Brahmin) should be spared. Also they should be confined there till the dress materials sent for them, reach you."

2. Letter dated December 14, 1788, to his Army Chief in Calicut: "I am sending two of my followers with Mir Hussain Ali. With their assistance, you should capture and kill all Hindus. Those below 20 may be kept in prison and 5,000 from the rest should be killed by hanging from the tree-tops. These are my orders."

3. Letter dated December 21, 1788, to Sheik Kutub: "242 Nairs are being sent as prisoners. Categorise them according to their social and family status. After honouring them with Islam, sufficient dress materials may be given to the men and their women."

4. Letter dated January 18, 1790, to Syed Abdul Dulai: "With the grace of Prophet Muhammed and Allah, almost all Hindus in Calicut are converted to Islam. Only a few are still not converted on the borders of Cochin State. I am determined to convert them also very soon. I consider this as Jehad to achieve that object."

5. Letter dated January 19, 1790, to Badroos Saman Khan: "Don't you know that I have achieved a great victory recently in Malabar and over 4 lakh Hindus were converted to Islam. I am now determined to march against that 'Cursed Raman Nair' without delay. (Reference is to Rama Varma Raja of Travancore State who was popularly known as Dharma Raja for giving shelter in his state to all those who fled Malabar.)



Non sense.

His father Hyder Ali was smart, ambitious and religious.

Tipu sultan was petty, evil. Bigoted and foolish.

Everything he EVER did was against Hindus and FOR muslims. His killings was motivated by the blinding need to convert and declare muslim superiority.

Its a free world, you are entitled to your views. If u hate him so much go dig up his body and break the bones

 

[kalanirnay]

Its a free world, you are entitled to your views. If u hate him so much go dig up his body and break the bones

Some times unreasonable views offend people when you continue to flaunt it in defiance of common sense and motivate by spite. Something similar happened with MF Hussein.

Consider this, Tipu ruled only for 16 years during which he lost a Kingdom his father gifted to him (baap ka maal), Made everybody hate him, got all neighbours to gang up against him, got ALL his children killed and he himself died and was humiliated in battle.

The ONLY legacy he leaves behind is hate and contempt for him and his people.


IF that is your definition of success that all the best to you. One suspects your religious affiliation colours your sound judgement like most muslims anywhere.

 

[Butchcassidy]

Some times unreasonable vies offend people when you continue to flaunt it in defiance of common sense and motivate by spite. Something similar happened with MF Hussein.

Consider this, Tipu ruled only for 16 years during which he lost a Kingdom his father gifted to him (baap ka maal), Made everybody hate him, got all neighbours to gang p against him, got ALL his children killed and he himself died and was humiliated in battle.

The ONLY legacy he leaves behind is hate and contempt for him and his people.


IF that is your definition of success that all the best to you. One suspects your religious affiliation colours your sound judgement like most muslims anywhere.

Bhai teri english kamzor hai. There is a big difference in being ambitious and being successful. Look at rahul gandhi, he is ambitious but not successful.

 

[kalanirnay]

Bhai teri english kamzor hai. There is a big difference in being ambitious and being successful. Look at rahul gandhi, he is ambitious but not successful.

Hyder Ali stole the kingdom of Mysore from the wadiyars by sheer dint of his ambition. He was a nobody, a common man who became a defacto king. If Tipu was ambitious like his father, he would have made something out of his life. He was propelled by pure hubris, not ambition.

Rahul gandhi is more successful than Tipu sultan. He might yet live to tell his tale.

 

[Indrani]

@kalanirnay

Neither I deny nor I agree about both the views about Tipu's personal character. I just wanted to show both sides of arguments to Kurup and that's all. Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe here.

You need more proof?