The Question of "Shia Genocide" in Pakistan.

[Hamzay]

The propaganda video that exposed you as a liar and sectarian propagandist ???:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-question-of-shia-genocide-in-pakistan.503784/page-3#post-9609588

If you do not need any hearing aid, and understand Urdu, then hear it a 100 times for 'better understanding'. Let the smart people watch this video and decide if I'm right about it or not.

So, besides issuing "Fatwas", you also distribute certificates of Patriotism ??


Anyway, let's stick to the topic

What fatwa have I issued?

Alright, so what is the correct figure of shia deaths since 1979?

 

[Sharpshooter12]

While killing of a single human soul should be condemned, but as your question is whether it is genocide or not so here is my answer.

The definition of Genocide is " the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial,political, or cultural group."

These killings are deliberate and as certain organizations like LEJ etc exist for soul purpose of killing Shias it is systematic as well. So in that way yes it is genocide.

But now let's see in what cases the term "Genocide" has been used and was accepted globally.

Take Tutsi genocide in Rawanda, it is estimated that 0.5 Million to 0.8 Million Tutsis were killed by Hutu militias in 100 days. Population of Rawanda is 1.1 Crore now, back in 1994 it would be say 9 Million. Tutsis make 15% of the population, so they would be around 1.2 million back then and they lost 0.5 million souls i.e about 40 percent of their population.

Pakistan's population is 21 Crore, Shias are 15% so it makes their population at more than 3 Crore. If your data is to be trusted, then these terrorist scumbags killed 1850 Shia brothers during last 17 years, this is 0.0061 percent of Shia population killed during this period.

So in this sense no this is not a Genocide, this is terrorism and like the rest of Pakistan, Shia community has suffered as well in the last 17 years.

 

[M. Sarmad]

While killing of a single human soul should be condemned, but as your question is whether it is genocide or not so here is my answer.

The definition of Genocide is " the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial,political, or cultural group."

These killings are deliberate and as certain organizations like LEJ etc exist for soul purpose of killing Shias it is systematic as well. So in that way yes it is genocide.

But now let's see in what cases the term "Genocide" has been used and was accepted globally.

Take Tutsi genocide in Rawanda, it is estimated that 0.5 Million to 0.8 Million Tutsis were killed by Hutu militias in 100 days. Population of Rawanda is 1.1 Crore now, back in 1994 it would be say 9 Million. Tutsis make 15% of the population, so they would be around 1.2 million back then and they lost 0.5 million souls i.e about 40 percent of their population.

Pakistan's population is 21 Crore, Shias are 15% so it makes their population at more than 3 Crore. If your data is to be trusted, then these terrorist scumbags killed 1850 Shia brothers during last 17 years, this is 0.0061 percent of Shia population killed during this period.

So in this sense no this is not a Genocide, this is terrorism and like the rest of Pakistan, Shia community has suffered as well in the last 17 years.

Firstly, those implausibly low figures (i.e. 1800) are nothing but 'false propaganda' by Jhangvi fanboys on PDF to downplay the atrocities committed by SSP, LeJ etc. against Pakistani Shia.... Over 20,000 Shias have been killed so far

Secondly, The phrase "in whole or in part" in the UN definition of Genocide is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group such as its educated members, or members living in one region is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

 

[Safriz]

Anyway my statement stands as it is.
I am presenting a figure of about 1850 Shia deaths inb Terrorism incidents in Pakistan over the last 17 years.
Far more Pakistani soldiers and LEA have been killed in similar incidents by terrorists.
So why only shia of Pakistan are pulling out the victim card and giving bad name to the country they live in and to the Sunni they live with, by Calling it a Genocide?
This should stop. You cannot have special protection just because you are Shia.

 

[Winchester]

While killing of a single human soul should be condemned, but as your question is whether it is genocide or not so here is my answer.

The definition of Genocide is " the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial,political, or cultural group."

These killings are deliberate and as certain organizations like LEJ etc exist for soul purpose of killing Shias it is systematic as well. So in that way yes it is genocide.

But now let's see in what cases the term "Genocide" has been used and was accepted globally.

Take Tutsi genocide in Rawanda, it is estimated that 0.5 Million to 0.8 Million Tutsis were killed by Hutu militias in 100 days. Population of Rawanda is 1.1 Crore now, back in 1994 it would be say 9 Million. Tutsis make 15% of the population, so they would be around 1.2 million back then and they lost 0.5 million souls i.e about 40 percent of their population.

Pakistan's population is 21 Crore, Shias are 15% so it makes their population at more than 3 Crore. If your data is to be trusted, then these terrorist scumbags killed 1850 Shia brothers during last 17 years, this is 0.0061 percent of Shia population killed during this period.

So in this sense no this is not a Genocide, this is terrorism and like the rest of Pakistan, Shia community has suffered as well in the last 17 years.

The mass scale murder of Hazara Shia in Quetta tantamounts to a gencide.

They have been literally caged in one corner of Quetta surrounded by scums and are being picked off one by one.

For a small community, the number of people killed is staggering and considering the amount of people who have been forced to leave, I wouldn't call it anything else.

 

[Hamzay]

Firstly, those implausibly low figures (i.e. 1800) are nothing but 'false propaganda' by Jhangvi fanboys on PDF to downplay the atrocities committed by SSP, LeJ etc. against Pakistani Shia.... Over 20,000 Shias have been killed so far

Are you intentionally not mentioning shia terrorist organisations?

Or you are doing it out of ignorance?

What about Sipah-e-Mohammad? What about Tehrik-e-Jafaria? What about scores of others who have killed Sunni scholars and sunni worshipers in attacks on Masjids?

The mass scale murder of Hazara Shia in Quetta tantamounts to a gencide.

They have been literally caged in one corner of Quetta surrounded by scums and are being picked off one by one.

For a small community, the number of people killed is staggering and considering the amount of people who have been forced to leave, I wouldn't call it anything else.

Iran Trained and Funded Sipah e Muhammad Target Killers Arrested In Karachi

CID has arrested two target killers during an operation in Karachi belonging to Shia Militant banned organization Sipah e Muhammad who have confessed that they were trained in Iran and were also funded for terrorist activities inside Pakistan.

This was revealed during a press conference by CID Anti-terrorism unit head Raja Umar Khatab. He said that arrested terrorists of Sipah e Muhammad have confessed their involvement in over 60 sectarian killings in Pakistan. Arrested terrorists are identified as Jafar Hussain and Irshaad Hussain. Police has also captured one motor cycle, 3 9MM Pistols, 3 Kalashnikov and a CD with details of their upcoming targets.

Raja Umar Khatab further told that it has been revealed that Iran not only trains these terrorists but they are also given a stipend of Rs. 15000 per month.

Sipah e Muhammad is a shia terrorist organization which was formed in 1990. This militant organization has been involved in a number of terrorist activities against Sunni sect in the country. Later, this organization was banned by General Pervez Muhsaraf along with several other Sunni Militant organizations including Sipah e Sahaba and Lashkar e Jhangvi.

http://www.havelian.net/page/Iran-T...ammad-Target-Killers-Arrested-In-Karachi/483;

Anyway my statement stands as it is.
I am presenting a figure of about 1850 Shia deaths inb Terrorism incidents in Pakistan over the last 17 years.
Far more Pakistani soldiers and LEA have been killed in similar incidents by terrorists.
So why only shia of Pakistan are pulling out the victim card and giving bad name to the country they live in and to the Sunni they live with, by Calling it a Genocide?
This should stop. You cannot have special protection just because you are Shia.

Perhaps an Iranian agenda given to certain elements in their ranks.

 

[Safriz]

The mass scale murder of Hazara Shia in Quetta tantamounts to a gencide.

They have been literally caged in one corner of Quetta surrounded by scums and are being picked off one by one.

For a small community, the number of people killed is staggering and considering the amount of people who have been forced to leave, I wouldn't call it anything else.

While in the same Balochistan under similar circumstances there have been "Mass Killing " of Punjabis. Buses had been stopped , Punjabis pulled out and killed and the rest let go.

 

[Hamzay]

And it's a shame that Khomeini's Loyalists do not talk about how many Sunnis have been killed so far in Iran by the state.

Khomeini fatwa 'led to killing of 30,000 in Iran'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ni-fatwa-led-to-killing-of-30000-in-Iran.html

 

[Sharpshooter12]

Firstly, those implausibly low figures (i.e. 1800) are nothing but 'false propaganda' by Jhangvi fanboys on PDF to downplay the atrocities committed by SSP, LeJ etc. against Pakistani Shia.... Over 20,000 Shias have been killed so far

Secondly, The phrase "in whole or in part" in the UN definition of Genocide is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group such as its educated members, or members living in one region is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.

Well in that case there is a Sunni Genocide as well, most of the shrines that are revered by the Brelvi school of thought in Pakistan have been attacked by terrorists, their religious leaders have been targeted, so there is a Brelvi genocide going on in Pakistan as well.

And there is Christian genocide as well, their churches have been routinely targeted in the past decade and dare I say they lost more people than Shia when the overall population size of both groups are taken in to account.

And then there is an Ahmediya genocide as well, they have been targeted as well by these animals.

What about the targeting of Punjabi settlers in Baluchistan? They have been targeted solely because of their ethnic background, they have been threatened, killed, their businesses destroyed and they have been forced to flee the province. So there is a Punjabi Genocide in Baluchistan as well then?

If law-enforcement agencies are taken as a group, they can call what is going on in this country as their genocide, these groups are participating in a larger plan to destroy them after all, so why not.

See sir we are at war, we are all suffering, Shias can call it a genocide but only if they think that the majority of population is conspiring against them, if the state is involved in these killings. Otherwise they are victim of terrorism, just like the rest of us, Pakistan has lost more than 60 thousand lives in this War on Terror, I bet not all of them were Shias.

 

[hit&run&hitagain]

Both Sunnis and Shias were killed. Iran is responsible for this curse. Pakistan was not like this before Khomeini brought his revolution to Iran. And I'm sure Indian RAW took advantage of this religious rift and funded criminals to fan tit for tat killings.

I just added the official/reported Total.

In my understanding Iran can not be blamed for something that happened many years ago and it had internal consequences to Iran with no spill over in Pakistan. I be happy if you may elaborate if I am wrong.

So far the evidence presented by OP says Shia are being targeted. It looks systematic and have a pattern.

Every attack incur a financial cost from planning to execution to the perpetrators. And the cost goes in lakhs. Bigger the attack bigger the money spent. What I am trying to say is that their is money trail and going by what we read, it is Saudi money that is pouring in Pakistan in order to spread Wahhabism.

Looking at the cultural changes that Pakistan has been adopting, Wahhabism is winning the numbers by coercion and money. So there is Cui Bono, animus nocendi and Crime itself for the purpose of establishing Wahhabism.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

There is without a shred of doubt a Hazara genocide taking place in Pakistan. Genocide by definition is killing of a group that is so great that it places that community in extreme danger. Now if 1,000 people are killed but the population of that group is 200 million that cannot possibly be described as genocide because 1,000 spread over 200 million people is negligible. One could say more of that 200 million died in road traffic accidents.

However what is pertinent to note that Pakistani Hazaras number below 900,000 with most living in Quetta. That city has seen a systematic murder of over 1,000 Shia Hazaras since 1999. If you factor 1,000 killed in a small community in Quetta that is bloody genocide - therefore there is presently a Hazara genocide going on.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/06/29/we-are-walking-dead/killings-shia-hazara-balochistan-pakistan

 

[Hamzay]

I just added the official/reported Total.

In my understanding Iran can not be blamed for something that happened many years ago and it had internal consequences to Iran with no spill over in Pakistan. I be happy if you may elaborate if I am wrong.

So far the evidence presented by OP says Shia are being targeted. It looks systematic and have a pattern.

Every attack incur a financial cost from planning to execution to the perpetrators. And the cost goes in lakhs. What I am trying to say is that their is money trail and going by what we read it is Saudi money that is pouring in Pakistan in order to spread Whhabism.

Looking at the cultural changes that Pakistan has been adopting, Wahhabism is winning the numbers by coercion and money. So there is Cui Bono, animus nocendi and Crime itself for the purpose of establishing Wahhabism.

Iran is still being run by the same Revolutionists and their policy of exporting their ideas, and imposing their political power in the Arab world including Non-Arab sunni states is continued.

Because of their involvement in anti-Pakistan activities, Pakistan has severed its relations with Iran.

India has been taking advantage of this shia sunni strife and therefore the money trail goes to New Delhi more than Riyadh.

However what is pertinent to note that Pakistani Hazaras number below 900,000 with most living in Quetta. That city has seen a systematic murder of over 1,000 Shia Hazaras since 1999. If you factor 1,000 killed in a small community in Quetta that is bloody genocide - therefore there is presently a Hazara genocide going on.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/06/29/we-are-walking-dead/killings-shia-hazara-balochistan-pakistan

1000 Hazaras since 1999.. why not before? Why not throughout 1990s?

Hazara factor is different from the general shia sunni killings. Look at this from a different perspective; perhaps the role of Hazaras in toppling down Taliban regime in Afghanistan, and the 3000 Taliban prisoners who were brutally massacred by Hazaras in Mazar-e-Sharif. So this could be an out-lash.

I'll repeat this:

Raja Umar Khatab further told that it has been revealed that Iran not only trains these terrorists but they are also given a stipend of Rs. 15000 per month.

 

[Safriz]

Are you intentionally not mentioning shia terrorist organisations?

Or you are doing it out of ignorance?

What about Sipah-e-Mohammad? What about Tehrik-e-Jafaria? What about scores of others who have killed Sunni scholars and sunni worshipers in attacks on Masjids?


Iran Trained and Funded Sipah e Muhammad Target Killers Arrested In Karachi

CID has arrested two target killers during an operation in Karachi belonging to Shia Militant banned organization Sipah e Muhammad who have confessed that they were trained in Iran and were also funded for terrorist activities inside Pakistan.

This was revealed during a press conference by CID Anti-terrorism unit head Raja Umar Khatab. He said that arrested terrorists of Sipah e Muhammad have confessed their involvement in over 60 sectarian killings in Pakistan. Arrested terrorists are identified as Jafar Hussain and Irshaad Hussain. Police has also captured one motor cycle, 3 9MM Pistols, 3 Kalashnikov and a CD with details of their upcoming targets.

Raja Umar Khatab further told that it has been revealed that Iran not only trains these terrorists but they are also given a stipend of Rs. 15000 per month.

Sipah e Muhammad is a shia terrorist organization which was formed in 1990. This militant organization has been involved in a number of terrorist activities against Sunni sect in the country. Later, this organization was banned by General Pervez Muhsaraf along with several other Sunni Militant organizations including Sipah e Sahaba and Lashkar e Jhangvi.

http://www.havelian.net/page/Iran-T...ammad-Target-Killers-Arrested-In-Karachi/483;



Perhaps an Iranian agenda given to certain elements in their ranks.

There is without a shred of doubt a Hazara genocide taking place in Pakistan. Genocide by definition is killing of a group that is so great that it places that community in extreme danger. Now if 1,000 people are killed but the population of that group is 200 million that cannot possibly be described as genocide because 1,000 spread over 200 million people is negligible. One could say more of that 200 million died in road traffic accidents.

However what is pertinent to note that Pakistani Hazaras number below 900,000 with most living in Quetta. That city has seen a systematic murder of over 1,000 Shia Hazaras since 1999. If you factor 1,000 killed in a small community in Quetta that is bloody genocide - therefore there is presently a Hazara genocide going on.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/06/29/we-are-walking-dead/killings-shia-hazara-balochistan-pakistan

According to all news reports i could accumulate, so far 231 Shia Hazara have been killed in and around Quetta since 2001.
I have not included two or three Pilgrim killings which happened on Pak-Iran border areas as the buses also had other shia , not just Hazara.
So from where you are pulling up the figure of 1000 Hazara Killed?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Anyway my statement stands as it is.
I am presenting a figure of about 1850 Shia deaths inb Terrorism incidents in Pakistan over the last 17 years.

Just did some "search" on google comparing database provided by you in the OP and the Database provided by LUBP (that claims over 20,000 Shia have died so far) .... For year 2003 ...


And guess what ? You have been caught lying !!

You didn't mention/count these incidents from 2003 that were mentioned by LUBP, can you tell us why ?:

Nine shot dead in Karachi: Conspiracy against govt: minister

7 Shia Suparco employees shot dead in Karachi



Also, please tell us how you count years ? You start from 2003 ... 2003-2017 = 15 years, not 17

Who do you think you are trying to fool Jhangvi fanboy ??

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Hazara factor

The issue is genocide. Not the causes or justification. Every genocide has cause or claims of justification behind it. The fact is Pakistani Hazara are being murdered at alarming rates and given their tiny population that starts looking like a genocide. My feeling is that because Hazara are visible by their appearance (they display Mongol features) they have become prime targets for those hunting Shias. They are walking targets as almost all Mongol Hazara are Shias.