The Original Pakistan Could've Been Saved

[Awesome]

for you to control?

To live as free men. Freemen they are. (ok I took that from Braveheart).

Jana doesn't seem to believe so (if she echoes the view of the article by pank aj misra she posted to corroborate her stance).. Kashmiris are both fed with Pakistan and India..

I really didn't understand what words were you putting in Jana's mouth.

teh same way some HIndus are though of carrying out progroms against Muslims similarly some Indians feel that some Pakistanis are involved in supporting terror attacks against India..
name calling is very old.. either you bring your ego and say why do you call me names. or you be the bigger man and give a hug...

Theses days we have a lot more Pakistani accusations of terror being pointed onto India than they occasional train bombing in India.

I think one of the core of the theory as Jinnah propounded was that Hindus and Muslims are 2 nations who can't live together in peace since their beliefs and way of life are fundamentally different..

No that is not the core. That was just one sidenote of the entire story. The core if there is such a simplistic thing can only be summed up as, "The minorities of India have a fat chance of living as free people and getting their viewpoints forward in government, hence we need a free land for the minorities of India. The biggest minority being the Muslims."

I have said this.. but since I have also said that it is actually an ideological fight and the giving party will give legitemacy to the other's claim..
further Kashmir as an independent nation will not thrive...

But if the Kashmiris say we want it so, and it will thrive, then that is their call. If they think it won't thrive then what you're saying is correct and I will accept.

Middle ground involving concessions will require courageous leaders and drive from both sides.. MR. Zaradari has just recently echoed his reluctance on solvr ing Kashmir... neithedo I see any Indian or Pak politician(political party) commiting political suicide by giving concessions...

You guys goofed up by not settling things with Musharraf. He had the strong arm to make things happen and get a workable compromise. A fair, honest and acceptable to Kashmiris compromise.

I feel with better relations between india and pak will negate the ongoing nightmare for Kashmiris on both sides and unite them.. (land area statisitics be damned)

Also accepting what the Kashmiris want would immediately negate all the horrors laid upon them.

 

[salman nedian]

Malang,

We Muslims have a very broad vision and scope. We are not constrained within the boundaries of areas and geographical locations we might have some differences but it is the bond of Islam which binds us. You are confused b/w the word “savior” and “raising voice for their safety”. Pakistan raised voice for Palestinians, Kashmiris, Chechens, Iraqis and Bosnians etc where there are mass killings of Muslims. Muslims in China are small in numbers and I have never heard about their mass killings (If there are any than yes it should be condemned). Pakistan wants brotherly relations with all the Muslim nations and that is the reason why being the only nuclear state of Muslim world we have our stand for Muslim cause.

We even surrendered to avoid more killings of our people in East Pakistan but look now Bangladeshis are realizing the facts this is the beauty of the Islamic bond that it always reminds us that we are one and Islam is the factor which really helps us to forget our differences. Such a beautiful faith we have.

As far as the Biharis issue is concerned first of all I would like to say that we might have difference of opinion in sindh but people are sympathetic about them and they will welcome them as they welcomed Mahajirs in 1947 and also keep this in mind that situation for Biharis there is not the same as it was in 1971 (You can see Azmax’s site for the evidence and you will see that Bangladeshis also feel that they did wrong with them in 1971 and why they feel is b/c of binding force of Islam).

We might have differences but at the end of the day we are Muslims and that makes us unique.

Cheen-o-Arab hamaara Hindustan hamaara
Muslim hain hum saara jahaan hamaara

 

[salman nedian]

guyz, don't worry about the original pakistan. many bangladeshis are starting to see what pakistan has to offer, power. they are starting to realize the pan-islamic dream and pakistan as the beacon for it. the isi has a very strong presence in bangladesh and their influence is spreading. you'd be surprise to find out what bangladeshis think.

I totally agree with what you just said. I have spoken to many Bangladeshis and I cant help it but to get the feeling that they regret declaring independence. Many of the older Bangalis say they were better off when they were with Pakistan.

Agreed with both of you

 

[Malang]

To live as free men. Freemen they are. (ok I took that from Braveheart).

an Indian can easily say that people in Pakistani Kashmir aren't free, there are reports but I don't want to go there...

I really didn't understand what words were you putting in Jana's mouth.

I am not she in her defence quoted an article which derided both India and Pak on Kashmir and said Kashmiris are disillusioned with both..

Theses days we have a lot more Pakistani accusations of terror being pointed onto India than they occasional train bombing in India.

I think rather than accussations one must realise that a common man doesn't wish violence (I hope?)

No that is not the core. That was just one sidenote of the entire story. The core if there is such a simplistic thing can only be summed up as, "The minorities of India have a fat chance of living as free people and getting their viewpoints forward in government, hence we need a free land for the minorities of India. The biggest minority being the Muslims."

and if India indeed doesn't give freedom to Muslims(minorities) this viewpoint is legitimized and if the opposite happens this viewpoint proved wrong??

(not to sound rude.. apologies)

so I wouldn't be "shocked" to see some adhering to the core of "tehreek-i-Pakistan" to spread propaganda(whether true or not) regarding India and for many to believe it...

But if the Kashmiris say we want it so, and it will thrive, then that is their call. If they think it won't thrive then what you're saying is correct and I will accept.

fair enough...
but it will be a tough act to convince China to give up their Kashmir, Pakistan to their Kashmir and India their kashmir, to a central authority which represents all Kashmiris..

as I said any politician giving up land will be committing political suicide and this will not happen, least of all in India.... the only possible solution is improve relations so that there is no difference b/w Kashmir..

You guys goofed up by not settling things with Musharraf.

I guess there was a lack of political will since Kashmir is not a very pressing issue for the common man...

He had the strong arm to make things happen and get a workable compromise. A fair, honest and acceptable to Kashmiris compromise.[/quot]

even if concessions are made.. (just like Radcliffe line and other issues) the future generations will fight over the fairness of it....

but still the party who actually wants good for all Kashmiris should make concessions unilaterally..

Also accepting what the Kashmiris want would immediately negate all the horrors laid upon them.

Yes I think it is really the onus of Pakistan, China and India to unite the Kashmiris and stop the horrors they perpetrate on them...

 

[Malang]

Malang,

We Muslims have a very broad vision and scope. We are not constrained within the boundaries of areas and geographical locations we might have some differences but it is the bond of Islam which binds us. You are confused b/w the word “savior” and “raising voice for their safety”. Pakistan raised voice for Palestinians, Kashmiris, Chechens, Iraqis and Bosnians etc where there are mass killings of Muslims. Muslims in China are small in numbers and I have never heard about their mass killings (If there are any than yes it should be condemned). Pakistan wants brotherly relations with all the Muslim nations and that is the reason why being the only nuclear state of Muslim world we have our stand for Muslim cause.

A very condemnable vision.. but feeling brotherhood with every human irresp of adjectives is condemnable too isn't it??

We even surrendered to avoid more killings of our people in East Pakistan but look now Bangladeshis are realizing the facts this is the beauty of the Islamic bond that it always reminds us that we are one and Islam is the factor which really helps us to forget our differences. Such a beautiful faith we have.

I think you surrendered because you were cornered ... but if it makes you happy you gave up because you wanted to stop the bloodbath (which is unexplained in the first place of fighting?, why don't you give up fighting in other places??)

As far as the Biharis issue is concerned first of all I would like to say that we might have difference of opinion in sindh but people are sympathetic about them and they will welcome them as they welcomed Mahajirs in 1947 and also keep this in mind that situation for Biharis there is not the same as it was in 1971 (You can see Azmax’s site for the evidence and you will see that Bangladeshis also feel that they did wrong with them in 1971 and why they feel is b/c of binding force of Islam).

what is Azmax?? are you suggesting their lives in Bangladesh are comfortable??

I think this reflects a bit badly- on one side you condemn India for mistreating Muslims and ask for freedom of Muslims in Kashmir and yet you don't condemn or evacuate Pakistani refugees in Bangladesh.. (offtopic- further you believe the terror acts to be works of RAW and at the same time you have AQ taking responsibility)

We might have differences but at the end of the day we are Muslims and that makes us unique.

Cheen-o-Arab hamaara Hindustan hamaara
Muslim hain hum saara jahaan hamaara

Best of luck.. I feel we all humans have differences but in the end we are all Humans that makes us unique

Cheen-0-Arab Hammara Hindustan America aur Afrikaa bhi hamaara
Insan hain hum sara jahan hamara...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agnostic.

BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | US concern at Pakistan textbooks



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State of Curr&TextBooks.pdf

The SDPI report was written by Pakistani Muslims I think.

Indeed seems an interesting report, and I will peruse it at some point.

I was going to quote the report but I think it should be fully read. Sorry friend, the lie that Pakistani textbooks did not speak ill of Hindu's and glorified jihad is not bought anywhere in this gods green earth. You can either acknowledge the error and rectify it or continue teaching your kids to blow up.

I'm sorry to have called you a liar here, but hey, if it can help a kid learn that jihadi isn't something really great as their seniors in school were taught to be....

I do not appreciate you calling me a liar Samudra, and barring an apology from you on that count, this will be the last exchange we have, either here or on the WAB. Civility counts in my book, and your choice of not asking for a clarification from me on why the discrepancy between my post and what is presumably in the report is not the attitude of an individual I wish to interact with.

1. I received my education till the eighth grade in a school run by the British Consulate (British Curriculum). When I transferred, my weak Urdu skills necessitated taking up English Literature rather instead of the Standard Urdu curriculum, which apparently contains some of the "offensive" references you describe. Beyond that I had Pakistan Studies and "Islamic Studies in English" (different Text from the standard Urdu one). These were all texts issued by the Federal Board of Education (rather than the Punjab Textbook board, which is the only one I could see in the list of texts reportedly surveyed mentioned in the appendix).

Now my lack of recollection of "Hate Hindu" material in the texts could be for the following reasons:

1. The authors went over his material with a fine tooth comb and looked at "implied" and "hidden" meanings and "prejudice", something that wasn't visible to most of us kids just living life and being teenagers.

2. The different education board means different textbooks, and in the case of the Federal Boards, that material was perhaps not present.

3. By skipping the Pakistani system till the eighth grade, I missed out on the Urdu and Social Studies courses, and the Pakistan Studies and English Islamiat (I am not sure whether a review of those particular texts for those grades is included in the report, let me know if you find it) did not have the "distortions" mentioned.

None of the above implies I have lied, infact given reason number one, it doesn't imply anyone who has defended the Pakistani curriculum from accusations of "spreading Hate against Hindus and violence" was lying.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

when was Sindh and Northern Areas one nation??? It is a feeling of nationalism that counts and can be cultivated.. regional and other differences are there no doubt ..
Nations cannot be narrowly defined in terms of a single ethnicity, region, language, religion etc..
though you can dig up historical texts and say oh Pakistani provinces had different rulers than India hence they were never united in past.. .. one ought to go into more detail than that (and I am not the right person for the job)... I don't think it is not about having one ruler.. it is about your feelings.. Germany was not even a nation till 100 years back...

India as a nation has had lots of regional powers ruled by their regional overlords but there are strings which unite them... India has a unique culture with regional variations and these differences don't serve to divide rather unite all the people..

India was unfortunate that it was never ruled unitedly by powerful Kings for most of its history but it doesn't mean that people thought themselves to be a different nation from one another (aka 2 nation theory) they always sought to assimiliate cultures and differences...

Agnostic you are more intellectual, knowledgeable than me and I don't think I will be able to convince nor do I have the luxury of reading up history and digging up info.. but in the hearts of hearts I like many Indians (and maybe Pakistanis) regard Pakistan and India as 1 nation... the proponents of 2 nation theory and some intellectuals? might disagree but since nationalism is a phenomena not definable hence their opinions matter as much as my own.....
I have nothing more to add to this discussion.. I am not here for debates or one upmanship.. you may have the last word..

Thank you.

I am not suggesting that because India was never "one nation", that Pakistan was. Pakistan has only been a nation since 1947, and in 1971 it split into two. India has only been one nation since 1947 as well. Before then what were we - a colony, before that - a hodge podge of various empires, kingdoms.

India does not have a "unique culture" , it has several cultures, several languages and several peoples, just as Pakistan does. They vary from one another as you go across the subcontinent, but why stop there? Why not include the Iranians, because the Baluch and the Brahui exist in both Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Pashtun exist in Pakistan and Afghanistan - at what point doe this "flow" stop? Each culture has linkages to the one close to it, and this trend continues on into Central Asia. Its a flawed argument for "single nation".

This isn't about having the last word either, its about having discussions, exchanging ideas - sometimes you get information that you were not aware of before, such as the assessment of the Pakistani Curriculum that Samudra posted.

 

[salman nedian]

I think you surrendered because you were cornered ... but if it makes you happy you gave up because you wanted to stop the bloodbath (which is unexplained in the first place of fighting?, why don't you give up fighting in other places??)

Which other place? Please explain.

what is Azmax?? are you suggesting their lives in Bangladesh are comfortable??

I think this reflects a bit badly- on one side you condemn India for mistreating Muslims and ask for freedom of Muslims in Kashmir and yet you don't condemn or evacuate Pakistani refugees in Bangladesh..

I think we all should see the thread right from the beginning so that we can make sure that we are not derailing the thread. Azmax is the thread starter and he is a Bangladeshi my whole post was in that context that when Bangladeshis are saying that “Original Pakistan could have been saved” than it is due to the Muslim brother hood. You want me to condemn the treatment of Biharis and I am saying that yes the treatment of Biharis by Bengalis was bad but it was in 1971 and now the situation is changing (That’s why I was referring to the thread starter’s site in which he showed sympathy and brotherhood with biharis).

(offtopic- further you believe the terror acts to be works of RAW and at the same time you have AQ taking responsibility)

It is a simple situation which is being made complex by you.AQ is fighting with us b/c they think that we are helping US against them and Indian installations in Afghanistan are gaining the most of this sad situation they are involved in terrorist activities in Baluchistan.

 

[Samudra]

I do not appreciate you calling me a liar Samudra, and barring an apology from you on that count, this will be the last exchange we have, either here or on the WAB. Civility counts in my book, and your choice of not asking for a clarification from me on why the discrepancy between my post and what is presumably in the report is not the attitude of an individual I wish to interact with.

Agnostic.

Of course, I'm sorry to have called you a liar.

It baffles me that I should ask you for a clarification. How can the obvious escape your eye my friend ? Do you intend telling me that the problem with Pakistani text books, the national glorification of jihad were somehow kept away from your eyes ? How many times has Musharaf spoken about it in public and how many times have the Western media highlighted it! How can *any* individual claiming to be a Pakistan remain oblivious to this nonsense of jihad and martyrdom taught in schools??? How on earth can somebody deny such an issue with a straight face!

If I, an Indian, an adversary to boot, could read, understand and sympathize with the cause of reforming Pakistani text books how can you - the son of the soil, as they say, not even know about it ???

It truly does baffles me that you choose to defend Pakistan by relating your personal experiences here. Perhaps there is a disconnect between the real Pakistan that is out there and the Pakistan percieved by those who are living outside Pakistan. I will leave it to you to decide.

Once again, I apologise.

 

[Always Neutral]

Malang,

We Muslims have a very broad vision and scope. We are not constrained within the boundaries of areas and geographical locations we might have some differences but it is the bond of Islam which binds us.
Cheen-o-Arab hamaara Hindustan hamaara
Muslim hain hum saara jahaan hamaara

Where was the bond of Islam when Iran and Iraq fought and killed more than a milllion people ?

What bout the Shia Sunni devide all over the world including Pakistan ?

Why does Turkey protect its territory against muslim Kurds ?

Take sometime an ponder about it !

Regards

 

[salman nedian]

Where was the bond of Islam when Iran and Iraq fought and killed more than a milllion people ?

What bout the Shia Sunni devide all over the world including Pakistan ?

Why does Turkey protect its territory against muslim Kurds ?

Take sometime an ponder about it !

Regards

Are you Neutral? If you live in a house sometimes you may have difference of opinion with your brother and you may fight with him but does it mean that he is no more your brother?

 

[Always Neutral]

Are you Neutral? If you live in a house sometimes you may have difference of opinion with your brother and you may fight with him but does it mean that he is no more your brother?

Whether I am neutral or not its for all to judge on this forum. I have 4 brothers and never had to use violence or religion to settle arguments between us.

Regards

 

[salman nedian]

Whether I am neutral or not its for all to judge on this forum. I have 4 brothers and never had to use violence or religion to settle arguments between us.

Regards

You totally missed my point. I meant to say that we might have differences but we share a common faith so no problem with that.

 

[Always Neutral]

You totally missed my point. I meant to say that we might have differences but we share a common faith so no problem with that.

Ok maybe I may have missed your viewpoint.

BUT Salman,

You still have to explain to me why two brothers sharing the same religion need to kill each other to prove they are right. Incase your memory is shallow i give you the examples below

1. Iran - Iraq War.
2. Turkey Attack on Kurds.
3. Hamas vs Fatah.
4. Shia vs Sunni bombings.
5. ETC.

Regards

 

[salman nedian]

Ok maybe I may have missed your viewpoint.

BUT Salman,

You still have to explain to me why two brothers sharing the same religion need to kill each other to prove they are right. Incase your memory is shallow i give you the examples below

1. Iran - Iraq War.
2. Turkey Attack on Kurds.
3. Hamas vs Fatah.
4. Shia vs Sunni bombings.
5. ETC.

Regards

That is what I am saying that we are humans and we can fight with each other so others should not have problems with that. Others should do their work and should not put their nose in our matters. Simple.