The Original Pakistan Could've Been Saved

[Malang]

Hold it right there, noble saint!


Lol, Pakistan has accepted Bangladesh as a sovereign nation. You want a whole nation to revile in animosity and hatred?


Same ol' mantra from the ignorant and ill-informed.


They want to play with Pakistan and vice versa but it's not the same game. We are better friends than we were family. Bangladesh identifies INDIA, the noble savior saint, as it's enemy not Pakistan.

The problem with India-Bangladesh friendship is people like you. Your efforts to sow seeds of discontent are more transparent now than they were in the early 70s. You are not even asking for peace with India, only demanding hostility towards Pakistan from the Bangladeshis. You're basically accusing all of us to be implicit in whatever horrific acts were meted upon the Bangladeshis whereas Bangladeshis recognize this Pakistani generation to be a different one with different ideals and agendas.

Go play bad angel elsewhere!

I think both India and Pakistan should learn something from Bangladesh, (and that is not being ungrateful ;-) .. ungratefulness is not a virtue)

They have buried their animosity with Pakistan.. India and Pakistan should also bury their differences and accept each other for who they are...

Pakistan should realise Indian Muslims or other minoriteis do not view them as their saviours and neither Pakistan has any onus/God-given right to fight in their stead..

India should realise an average Pakistani has as much hand in causing terror in India, as an average Indian has a hand in demolishing Babri Masjid...

as for Kashmir both should realise that they have screwed Kashmiris... and it is basically an ideological fight and the ideology they are fighting over is the 2 nation theory (I have tried to explain this in an earlier post).. and can never be solved..

in the interest of Kashmir bury your differences and forge strong links so that there are greater links and a Union like EU or US-CAnada like relationship can be cultivated which will make Kashmir and Kashmiris united not Pakistani or Indian governed Kashmir.. where Kashmiris are divided...

Let India and Pakistan prove the Divide and Rule theory redundant...

both should realise that what is portrayed is not always true.. an avg Pakistani or Indian is not a diabolical degenerate devil incarnate as is made out to be... and both follow a culture, belief system in which division is considered a transgression and brotherhood is stressed hence why the need to be hostile or divide (or support separatism)....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan should realise Indian Muslims or other minoriteis do not view them as their saviours and neither Pakistan has any onus/God-given right to fight in their stead..

Pakistan does not consider itself the "saviour" of Indian Muslims, and we are not fighting on their behalf. The prinicpal disputes between India and Pakistan remain territorial, primarily Kashmir.

India should realise an average Pakistani has as much hand in causing terror in India, as an average Indian has a hand in demolishing Babri Masjid...

or better yet:

"India should realise an average Pakistani has as much hand in causing terror in India, as an average Indian has a hand in causing terror in Pakistan"

Symantics, I know, but much more even this way...

 

[Malang]

Pakistan does not consider itself the "saviour" of Indian Muslims, and we are not fighting on their behalf. The prinicpal disputes between India and Pakistan remain territorial, primarily Kashmir.

then why do ""Pakistanis"", at least on this forum, always complain of mistreatment of Muslims(and other minorities) in India??

(I haven't been to an Indian forum so I wouldn't know how much camaraderie do they have with Hindu,Sikh etc. Pakistanis but speculatively IMO not much)

or better yet:
"India should realise an average Pakistani has as much hand in causing terror in India, as an average Indian has a hand in causing terror in Pakistan"
Symantics, I know, but much more even this way...

if this sends a clearer message... this statement should be incorp. as well..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

then why do ""Pakistanis"", at least on this forum, always complain of mistreatment of Muslims(and other minorities) in India??

(I haven't been to an Indian forum so I wouldn't know how much camaraderie do they have with Hindu,Sikh etc. Pakistanis but speculatively IMO not much)

The highlighting of "mistreatment" is more a result of each side highlighting the negative aspects of the other. I think some Pakistanis get a sense that some Indians tend to strut their secularism around and suggest that Pakistan suffers from a lack of "secularism". Often the motivation behind such discussions is just to show that discrimination and prejudice exist in both nations - highflying ideals of secularism and "religious doctrine based equality and justice" notwithstanding.

 

[Vinod2070]

I think both India and Pakistan should learn something from Bangladesh, (and that is not being ungrateful ;-) .. ungratefulness is not a virtue)

They have buried their animosity with Pakistan.. India and Pakistan should also bury their differences and accept each other for who they are...

Pakistan should realise Indian Muslims or other minoriteis do not view them as their saviours and neither Pakistan has any onus/God-given right to fight in their stead..

India should realise an average Pakistani has as much hand in causing terror in India, as an average Indian has a hand in demolishing Babri Masjid...

as for Kashmir both should realise that they have screwed Kashmiris... and it is basically an ideological fight and the ideology they are fighting over is the 2 nation theory (I have tried to explain this in an earlier post).. and can never be solved..

in the interest of Kashmir bury your differences and forge strong links so that there are greater links and a Union like EU or US-CAnada like relationship can be cultivated which will make Kashmir and Kashmiris united not Pakistani or Indian governed Kashmir.. where Kashmiris are divided...

Let India and Pakistan prove the Divide and Rule theory redundant...

both should realise that what is portrayed is not always true.. an avg Pakistani or Indian is not a diabolical degenerate devil incarnate as is made out to be... and both follow a culture, belief system in which division is considered a transgression and brotherhood is stressed hence why the need to be hostile or divide (or support separatism)....

A great post.

 

[Vinod2070]

Hold it right there, noble saint!


Lol, Pakistan has accepted Bangladesh as a sovereign nation. You want a whole nation to revile in animosity and hatred?


Same ol' mantra from the ignorant and ill-informed.


They want to play with Pakistan and vice versa but it's not the same game. We are better friends than we were family. Bangladesh identifies INDIA, the noble savior saint, as it's enemy not Pakistan.

The problem with India-Bangladesh friendship is people like you. Your efforts to sow seeds of discontent are more transparent now than they were in the early 70s. You are not even asking for peace with India, only demanding hostility towards Pakistan from the Bangladeshis. You're basically accusing all of us to be implicit in whatever horrific acts were meted upon the Bangladeshis whereas Bangladeshis recognize this Pakistani generation to be a different one with different ideals and agendas.

Go play bad angel elsewhere!

Just replace Pakistan with India and Bangladesh with Pakistan and let me know again.

 

[Malang]

The highlighting of "mistreatment" is more a result of each side highlighting the negative aspects of the other. I think some Pakistanis get a sense that some Indians tend to strut their secularism around and suggest that Pakistan suffers from a lack of "secularism". Often the motivation behind such discussions is just to show that discrimination and prejudice exist in both nations - highflying ideals of secularism and "religious doctrine based equality and justice" notwithstanding.

Though you have put it the whole thing in kind words.. but I somehow disagree about the motives or the motivations...(in the gambit of this forum)


BTW what are your personal views on India's secularism? and Pakistan's secularism??



India's secularism is not perfect but under the (unique) circumstances (that India faces) amongst the very best.. (barring a few instances I think it has performed/been upheld admirably)..

Discrimination by people (not sure of state govt and central govt??? but it can be added provided certain conditions are met (see last para)) etc. doesn't mean it is insecular (just shows (some) people are biased) so in case there is discrimination by the courts, constitution on basis of (organised) religion that would make India insecular...


Secular Islamic Republic of Pakistan sounds, I have to admit, on the surface like an oxymoron.. but it doesn't mean that Minorities are ill-treated
even if they are then it is not the business of Indians to raise a hue and cry nor the Pakistanis to respond in like terms.. (isn't there is a greater importance to Islam placed in the Pakistani constitution)...


Finally,
defining conclusively what Secularism is important too.. secularism to me(inexhaustively) means a constitution or laws of the land that are equidistant from all "organised" religion (being practised in the nation).. and any act contrary to them (if reported) are punishable

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just replace Pakistan with India and Bangladesh with Pakistan and let me know again.

Ahh but we were never one country....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Malang:

At the risk of going way off topic - I don't believe that a nation has to be a "declared secular state" to provide axiomatic rights and benefits to its citizens. Most religious doctrine advocates the same, what is needed is for culture and society to evolve to the point where it does not take "laws to do right by others".

 

[Vinod2070]

The highlighting of "mistreatment" is more a result of each side highlighting the negative aspects of the other. I think some Pakistanis get a sense that some Indians tend to strut their secularism around and suggest that Pakistan suffers from a lack of "secularism". Often the motivation behind such discussions is just to show that discrimination and prejudice exist in both nations - highflying ideals of secularism and "religious doctrine based equality and justice" notwithstanding.

I feel that it may also be due to the fact that secularism is a dirty word in Pakistan. So any country that calls itself secular has to be ridiculed, more so India for obvious reasons. I don't think it has much to do with what Indians do or don't do.

India is an enemy for such people, a Hindu majority country and an object of intense hate. So all actions on our part look hypocritical. Whether it is having Muslim presidents, businessman, cabinet ministers, film stars or whatever, it is all hypocritical. The reality has to be something else!

How could India be secular when they were taught that Hindus wanted to dominated and suppress Muslims and here they can see capable Muslims excelling in all walks of life, sometimes more so than Pakistan! You see some people (supposedly "think tank") posting that Hindus would have massacred Muslims and here you have a continuosly increasing Muslim population in India while there are hardly any minorities left in Pakistan.

So when facts don't support the perceptions, they be damned. They just have to believe what they believe. I read a really good piece about that by a Pakistani author where he described the difference between history as a subject and how it has been distorted to "Pakistan studies". And he talked about some 15 myths that most Pakistanis share: Right from the early Islamic invaders to Aurangzeb to the role of Muslim league in freedom struggle to the partition to the 1965 and 1971 wars (Now you can add Kargil to the list). I wish I had the link to that.

I found one of the links, it is here:

The myth of history -DAWN Magazine; March 27, 2005

Muslims in general (and I only want to be objective here and I know there are some exceptions to this too) want an Islamic government when they are in majority but expect secularism and full religious freedom when in minority. And some even go to the extent of demanding Islamic rule in countries where they are minority.

 

[Vinod2070]

Ahh but we were never one country....

Bangladesh was part of Pakistan for just 24 years. We were a single country for much longer I believe.

This is not to say that we need to become one again. But just to highlight that as Asim expects the Bangladeshis to move on from whatever bitterness was there, the same could be applied to India-Pakistan relations too.

But here I saw a post by him about keeping some jets in Bangladesh to take India on! Do people have any perspective at all? Any sense of balance?

Indian economy is roughly an order of magnitude larger than Pakistan and india should be able to deploy the same ratio in defence matters. So it was amusing to see that he expected that a squadron or so of Pakistani planes in Bangladesh could tie India down.

 

[Malang]

Ahh but we were never one country....

I have my reservation on this statement anyways lets leave this aside.. I shall post in the relevant thread..

At the risk of going way off topic - I don't believe that a nation has to be a "declared secular state" to provide axiomatic rights and benefits to its citizens. Most religious doctrine advocates the same, what is needed is for culture and society to evolve to the point where it does not take "laws to do right by others".

you are quite right there is no need to be a secular state to practise secularism but you do realise being an Islamic state(with a constitution favouring/advocating Islam (islamic laws)?) does in itself makes the state un-secular... since one religion as opposed to others is given an importance...


Religious doctrine seen in the right light and by mature evolved individuals advocates equality and ultimately most constitutions are based(partially) on religious doctrines...


but Pakistan's situation is unique in the sense that it was created because of 2-nation theory (at the time Jinnah espoused a Sharia state (I shall search for the link if you need)) and later was proclaimed to be secular (your signature) and later still was declared to be an Islamic state with laws being pro-Muslim...

Though, I don't know where this discussion shall head so Lets end this here(you may have the last word if you feel the need)...

 

[salman nedian]

Correction! It is Hindi.

Hindi is the language of your Country. Urdu is our language. You can only make wrong corrections here we are talking about our Country.

The same thing we say to the few Kashmiri separatists. Great advice.

Keep saying this to them we are not stopping you than why you have the pain?

Keep this fact in mind that Azad Kashmir became the part of Pakistan after independence while Bangladesh didn’t join India.belongs to

 

[salman nedian]

I think both India and Pakistan should learn something from Bangladesh, (and that is not being ungrateful ;-) .. ungratefulness is not a virtue)

Bangladeshis have identified their enemy. And for us they are still brothers.

They have buried their animosity with Pakistan.. India and Pakistan should also bury their differences and accept each other for who they are...

There is no point about Pakistan accepting India; it is India who didn’t accept us right from the beginning.

Pakistan should realise Indian Muslims or other minoriteis do not view them as their saviours and neither Pakistan has any onus/God-given right to fight in their stead..

It is a matter of belief; Indian Muslims are our brothers. They are the creators of Pakistan.

 

[Malang]

Bangladeshis have identified their enemy.
And for us they are still brothers.

Salman you have misinterpreted my post..
If Bangladesh could accept Pakistan as a friend after what happened then I see no reason why India and Pakistan can make up...

There is no point about Pakistan accepting India; it is India who didn’t accept us right from the beginning.

again you have misinterpreted my post.. both parties have wrong notions about each other and both have to take a step forward not stand ur ground (and indulge in chest-thumping) or expect the another to come with head bowed...


[(" if it helps ur "ego") Pakistan has no fault and Indians are the ones doing all the wrongs.. my suggestions was to both parties.. let me say to (stroke ur ego) that my suggestion implies to India and Indians alone.. who have all wrong notions about Pakistan .. Pakistanis have no misgivings/wrong notions about India...]

It is a matter of belief; Indian Muslims are our brothers. They are the creators of Pakistan.

Exactly what I was trying to tell Agnostic Muslim.. Pakistanis see themselves as saviours of Indian Muslims...


Those people born or descendants of those born on the east of Radcliffe's Punjab line and on the west of Bangladesh-India border pre-1947 and who chose to follow Jinnah's 2-nation theory and shifted to Pakistan are the creators of Pakistan.. also called Mohajirs... not Indian Muslims..


an India born Muslim living in India or Those who chose to stay back have no sense of allegiance whatsoever with Pakistan, and they don't have to prove their loyalties to anyone. If push comes to shove I would expect them to fight as courageously as any another Indian in protecting their motherland..



Personally don't you think it "would" disgust you to see that those who are born in your nation have allegiance to its enemies that a nation allows enemies to breed within in their borders.. and I would rather rejoice to see a nation annihilating the enemies breeding within its border..


PS: what about the Bihari Muslims (your brothers) being ill treated by Bangladeshis (again your mothers) and why are not they brought to Pakistan (your nation)???

Hindi is the language of your Country. Urdu is our language. You can only make wrong corrections here we are talking about our Country.

I think Vinod thought the discussion was about India... (there are bengalis and punjabis in India too)

Keep saying this to them we are not stopping you than why you have the pain?

the same way you have the "pain" which prompted you to make the statement


in any case I don't think Vinod2070 will disagree too much when i say that there is pain to see people dying and fighting a battle that will never end by means of violence...



personally, the only ray of hope is normalisation of relations to an extent that a person in either Kashmir has no problems in communicating, travelling, there are no borders etc. (something like what exists in US and Canada, EU etc.)

Keep this fact in mind that Azad Kashmir became the part of Pakistan after independence while Bangladesh didn’t join India.belongs to

I don't think India had any motive of annexing Bangladesh within its borders..
though if this were the case then I don't know why Indians want to throw out the millions of Bangladeshis living illegally within its borders..