THE "MOON"...Ah, the moon!!!

[BringHarmony]

dude, you've contradicted your own claims...if cancer had killed FAR more people than "communism" has than don't you think that more funds should've been diverted to curing that disease? I mean...we know more about the moon that cancer and yet, it is CANCER that poses the immediate danger to us, NOT the friggin moon out communism that, let's face it, is the main reason we wanted to go to the moon in the FIRST place...just a race driven by hate! Nothing more, nothing less.

No, actually.
There is this thing called diminishing returns. If I spend 10 billion on cancer research, I might make some progress in 10 years. If I spend 200 billions, may be similar progress in 8 years. At some point even spending 1000s of billions won't yield any further progress.

Why? because you lack supporting technology or science. Heck, you may not even know what you are missing. Putting more money is NOT going to guarentee more progress or even better outcome for that particular thing.

Diversifying your investment into various field ensures better results. In personal finances and in government spending.

 

[GumNaam]

Most likely, NEVER.

Why? Because no one would have required it! Or no one would have money to spend on it.

Think about it. You need to spend 1 billion in 1970 to develop a lighter fire-fighting equipment. Fire departments don't have the budget. No one gives a damn about them elsewhere. No one is going to develop technology costing this much for them. Now, another VERY COMPLEX expensive project happens. It solves similar problem in a very different domain. They publish papers. Someone in fire department or a related company reads it, approaches NASA and in 5-7 years you have that equipment.

Science and technology is a LOT by chance and builds upon what exists. Crosspolination is how new inventions happen.

Ok so if the government was not requiring something as important as light weight breathing apparatus & other things then...I'm afraid we need to rethink the kind of government we have...they came and wracked up a multi billion dollar expense & left. Now we are stuck paying for it...HELLO?

Now I know the misery of Pakistan, when they have great thinkers like you. Let aside lack of innovation, you are rather resisting it. You seem to be wanting to remain in this same rut that you were born into.

The whole question according to you why waste billions of dollars in some research? Specially of space and more so of moon. Probably you don't understand the word research at all. It's probing something to its limits. It may yield results or it may not. But we will keep looking for avenues where we can work for the betterment of our people. Moon is just another avenue which may yield much larger fruits as and when the technology matures and industrialises. A place full of thorium, with Indian claims on it ,for future needs when we exhaust the total reserves on earth. We may need to colonise moon too in future, then that water will be needed.

For that future we need to invest today. $141 millions is peanuts for a $3T economy. Failure are part of every endeavor , we accept it .. learn from it and improve next time. With a target in mind that IF and. WHRN the time comes for humans on moon India won't be left behind.

And whatever problems are left behind here on earth, we will leave it to Smart Pakistanis like yourself. Leta see if you can solve any one with the kind of budget that you talk about.

First even attempt to solve a problem.in your country before trying to diss someone who's working hard.

Leta see if you can eradicate polio from Pakistan first. Hell I'm not even asking you to invent any medicine or cure for it.

Oh let's not really about misery shall we mister chandrayaan-2, THIS was the line of unemployed applicants for a peon position while you were busy failing on the moon..."misreable" he says..

 

[Crusher]

You mean to tell me that these inventions could not have been invented HERE on earth at the FRACTION of the cost without going to the moon? I assure you that (for example) lighter breathing apparatus for fire fighters would've EASILY been achieved had the need for making the jobs & lives of fire fighters easier been given importance and that too, would've been at the fraction of the cost. In plain English, if the governments had put out tenders that they'll fund a $30 million contract goes to the company that can come up with the lightest, most durable & effective breathing system for fire fighters, tech companies would've produced the same results for a fraction of the cost, leaving the rest of the amount for other projects that would improve or save lives. But instead, they chose to fund a $30 billion contract to go to the moon to weaponize it against the soviet union and FAILED while still getting the light weight breathing apparatus for $30 million. Well la di da, most of that $30 billion STILL went to waste, why? Cuz spending those billions and decades worth of time, you realized that it is just not worth the cost. Only having a few fringe benefits that tricked down (like teflon or lightweight breathing apparatus) out of a multi billion dollar FAILURE can HARDLY be touted as an achievement since those same fringe benefits could have been achieved WITHOUT wasting those billions...and how much in public debt did it create that you, I & our children have to pay off with our hard earned incomes that we otherwise would NOT have had to pay off? Abandoned projects that were financed though public government borrowing still have to be paid for WITH INTEREST...yeah, let that sink in, you and I are STILL paying for projects that are DEAD!

Inventions don't take place on "demand", they are always result of long complex entangled research and development processes especially the hightech inventions that we are talking here, we just read the news of the invention but we never know how many people's hard work of tens of thousands of working hours has it taken to materialize.

 

[BringHarmony]

Ok so if the government was not requiring something as important as light weight breathing apparatus & other things then...I'm afraid we need to rethink the kind of government we have...they came and wracked up a multi billion dollar expense & left. Now we are stuck paying for it...HELLO?

Errr.... you got it wrong. In planning, you take assumptions. Like, "Is it even possible to build such light-weight breathing apparatus"? And "Who can build such things?". You only work with what is know. So, even if you want to build such things, many times you won't know who can do that or if it is possible or not. And hence such things are skipped.
When you make progress on a number of fields, you options increase. You know more, and you know more about more different things. You develop many different technologies, many times in varying fields. And they can be used in different other fields.

Problem is not government not having their heart in right place. Problem is that going in one single direction can only take you this far, even with almost limitless resources. You have to explore and exploit.

 

[GumNaam]

No, actually.
There is this thing called diminishing returns. If I spend 10 billion on cancer research, I might make some progress in 10 years. If I spend 200 billions, may be similar progress in 8 years. At some point even spending 1000s of billions won't yield any further progress.

Why? because you lack supporting technology or science. Heck, you may not even know what you are missing. Putting more money is NOT going to guarentee more progress or even better outcome for that particular thing.

Diversifying your investment into various field ensures better results. In personal finances and in government spending.

But we haven't even tried spending as much on cancer research...at least give it a fighting chance for God's sakes...you can diversify it all we want but can we stop and think about how we are diversifying it? Cancer research, water purification, cleaner energy verses exploring the moon, going to Mars, Voyager monitoring station for signals that will 10 years to reach us, even a blind person can tell which diversification will yeald greater results a lot quicker & cheaper.

 

[BringHarmony]

Inventions don't take place on "demand", they are always result of long complex entangled processes.

Actually its both. You have need and there is enough "things" around you to invent. I mean, boats were invented, but mostly likely someone first figured out that sharp edges of stones cut meat more easily than teeth. Later someone else found that wood floats and sharp edges that cut meat could be used to cut wood too, with suitable modifications. Hence, you got the boat.

 

[kinsr]

Ok so if the government was not requiring something as important as light weight breathing apparatus & other things then...I'm afraid we need to rethink the kind of government we have...they came and wracked up a multi billion dollar expense & left. Now we are stuck paying for it...HELLO?


Oh let's not really about misery shall we mister chandrayaan-2, THIS was the line of unemployed applicants for a peon position while you were busy failing on the moon..."misreable" he says.. View attachment 578653

Thats exactly why the need of the hour is to diversify and create more avenues of employment, industry. I already explained to you earlier about the space industry. GoI is investing heavily into it. Maybe it will become another IT story for us.

A peons job has a good pay here in India. Much better than jobless people ready to wear a suicide vest for a mere few thousands somewhere in the world.

By the way you didn't reply to me about how do you propose to eradicate polio from Pakistan? Heck, you don't even need funds for that.. WHO is already providing you the funds.

 

[Crusher]

Actually its both. You have need and there is enough "things" around you to invent. I mean, boats were invented, but mostly likely someone first figured out that sharp edges of stones cut meat more easily than teeth. Later someone else found that wood floats and sharp edges that cut meat could be used to cut wood too, with suitable modifications. Hence, you got the boat.

But you see from cutting meat to inventing simple boat already took two principles into account , identifying the principle that wood floats, the cutting of wood, assembling it in a shape to sit on. The more complex an invention becomes, the more complex "assembling" of ideas and principles it incorporates.

 

[BringHarmony]

But we haven't even tried spending as much on cancer research...at least give it a fighting chance for God's sakes...you can diversify it all we want but can we stop and think about how we are diversifying it? Cancer research, water purification, cleaner energy verses exploring the moon, going to Mars, Voyager monitoring station for signals that will 10 years to reach us, even a blind person can tell which diversification will yeald greater results a lot quicker & cheaper.

Here is a (ficticious) example :
The folks doing cancer research needs to find a way to see if DNA in cancer cell have some kind of damage. One way is to do it chemically. Find right chemicals to detect that damage. It is slow as hell.

Another way is to sequence the DNA and find its base pairs and then use a computer to find common parts in a large number of such sequences. It is fast

Now, the technology behind the second solution is called string alignment in computers. This was simply a mental problem with limited use before we started to use it in genetics. There was no real use of aligning sequence of letters. And the person who probably found the algorithms to do so, never thought it would be useful for curing cancer.

See? This kind of things happen a lot in science.

Its not a question of throwing money at curing cancer. Because to be honest, we as humans do no know where to throw money at and its actually unknowable. So you spread your money in various directions and overtime things come together.

But you see from cutting meat to inventing simple boat already took two principles into account , identifying the principle that wood floats, the cutting of wood, assembling it in a shape to sit on. The more complex an invention becomes, the more complex "assembling" of ideas and principles it incorporates.

Exactly. Thats why you have multiple discoveries, so when there is a demand, someone wise enough can put it together. Demand + Earlier Discoveries + Some of your own discovery = Progress and Innovation.

 

[Peshwa]

Here is a (ficticious) example :
The folks doing cancer research needs to find a way to see if DNA in cancer cell have some kind of damage. One way is to do it chemically. Find right chemicals to detect that damage. It is slow as hell.

Another way is to sequence the DNA and find its base pairs and then use a computer to find common parts in a large number of such sequences. It is fast

Now, the technology behind the second solution is called string alignment in computers. This was simply a mental problem with limited use before we started to use it in genetics. There was no real use of aligning sequence of letters. And the person who probably found the algorithms to do so, never thought it would be useful for curing cancer.

See? This kind of things happen a lot in science.

Its not a question of throwing money at curing cancer. Because to be honest, we as humans do no know where to throw money at and its actually unknowable. So you spread your money in various directions and overtime things come together.


Exactly. Thats why you have multiple discoveries, so when there is a demand, someone wise enough can put it together. Demand + Earlier Discoveries + Some of your own discovery = Progress and Innovation.

Well written and kudos to your thought process!
A great example of the crux of your argument can be found in the pharma industry...

The sildenafil compound was originally developed by Pfizer for the treatment of hypertension (high blood pressure) and angina pectoris (chest pain due to heart disease). During the heart clinical trials, researchers discovered that the drug was more effective at inducing erections than treating angina

https://www.drugs.com/slideshow/viagra-little-blue-pill-1043

 

[Thorough Pro]

But Indians don't need that, they just need a tube to recycle their body fluids, let's call it "Morar Ji Desai" tube to honour an ex-Indian pm.

Erm, no. Modern dialysis is a direct result of the space program, and that is just one example. What dialysis used to be before the incorporation of hollow fiber membranes and IC intelligent control (and a myriad of similar improvements) is not even a comparison, except may be that a Chinese bottle rocket is similar to the Saturn V rocket.

 

[GumNaam]

Inventions don't take place on "demand", they are always result of long complex entangled research and development processes especially the hightech inventions that we are talking here, we just read the news of the invention but we never know how many people's hard work of tens of thousands of working hours has it taken to materialize.

There's no disputing the process of inventions, what I am disputing is the INTENT of inventions...the intent of space exploration is primarily BUSINESS! Why should anyone pursue that that when there are far bigger problems glaring us in the face. Yeah sure, if earth was a utopia and there were no wars, manageable diseases & widespread economic prosperity, YEAH sure, knock yourselves out, go out their and explore all you want...but do we have that luxury? NO WE DON'T!

Errr.... you got it wrong. In planning, you take assumptions. Like, "Is it even possible to build such light-weight breathing apparatus"? And "Who can build such things?". You only work with what is know. So, even if you want to build such things, many times you won't know who can do that or if it is possible or not. And hence such things are skipped.
When you make progress on a number of fields, you options increase. You know more, and you know more about more different things. You develop many different technologies, many times in varying fields. And they can be used in different other fields.

Problem is not government not having their heart in right place. Problem is that going in one single direction can only take you this far, even with almost limitless resources. You have to explore and exploit.

but you have to cross that bridge REGARDLESS of the end goal. It is the end goal that was misguided in the first place...i.e. it was for petty political gains, not humanitarian ones. That is EXACTLY what the government did though, take things in one single direction. Now...nothing wrong with that if the intent was the greater good of mankind instead of enormously STUPID idea that we must somehow show socialism/communism down...face it, that is exactly was the initial reason was...recall Kennedy's speech that america must commit itself to going to the moon & back...WWWWWHY? just show the Soviets down when there are sho many human beings suffering? Basically a "height" contest and a very STUPID one at that!

Thats exactly why the need of the hour is to diversify and create more avenues of employment, industry. I already explained to you earlier about the space industry. GoI is investing heavily into it. Maybe it will become another IT story for us.

A peons job has a good pay here in India. Much better than jobless people ready to wear a suicide vest for a mere few thousands somewhere in the world.

By the way you didn't reply to me about how do you propose to eradicate polio from Pakistan? Heck, you don't even need funds for that.. WHO is already providing you the funds.

REALLY? you'll "diversify" in a project doomed to multiple failures rather than diversifying in investments that create a multifold return? Oh wait, I just read your next line that a peon position pays well in india... don't forget, indians introduced suicide bombers in south asia, who killed rajiv gandhi? don't start a fire you can't put out buddy!

Here is a (ficticious) example :
The folks doing cancer research needs to find a way to see if DNA in cancer cell have some kind of damage. One way is to do it chemically. Find right chemicals to detect that damage. It is slow as hell.

Another way is to sequence the DNA and find its base pairs and then use a computer to find common parts in a large number of such sequences. It is fast

Now, the technology behind the second solution is called string alignment in computers. This was simply a mental problem with limited use before we started to use it in genetics. There was no real use of aligning sequence of letters. And the person who probably found the algorithms to do so, never thought it would be useful for curing cancer.

See? This kind of things happen a lot in science.

Its not a question of throwing money at curing cancer. Because to be honest, we as humans do no know where to throw money at and its actually unknowable. So you spread your money in various directions and overtime things come together.


Exactly. Thats why you have multiple discoveries, so when there is a demand, someone wise enough can put it together. Demand + Earlier Discoveries + Some of your own discovery = Progress and Innovation.

Agreed...and the scientists pick the most effective solution possible with minimal cost. How is going to another friggin planet a cost effective solution to developing something like teflon? We, as a species, need to put the brakes on for a moment and just THINK about where are we going wrong! If WAR is the catalyst that is facilitating our technological achievements then I'm afraid we are not walking, but RUNNING towards extinction...

 

[Wow]

This thread right here is the exact reason why Muslims have been i the buttend of history for the last 1000 years

 

[GumNaam]

This thread right here is the exact reason why Muslims have been i the buttend of history for the last 1000 years

last 400 years. before that, Muslims were at the cutting edge of medicine and other sciences...its when the the mullah culture started taking hold 400 years ago that killed scientific research. We MUST admit our faults if we are to progress my friend. I am PROUD of the fact that Muslim scientists were driven by the need to serve humanity, not destroy it...hence why up until the late 19th century, most of the advanced books of medicines that were taught in european and american universities were written by Muslim scientists...AAAAND then we got the likes of mister ghazali who killed off all forms of scientific research by selling the idea the numbers were somehow the work of the devil... we need to ditch movlis once and for all if we are to attain our rightful place in the world science and technology once again.

 

[BringHarmony]

There's no disputing the process of inventions, what I am disputing is the INTENT of inventions...the intent of space exploration is primarily BUSINESS! Why should anyone pursue that that when there are far bigger problems glaring us in the face. Yeah sure, if earth was a utopia and there were no wars, manageable diseases & widespread economic prosperity, YEAH sure, knock yourselves out, go out their and explore all you want...but do we have that luxury? NO WE DON'T!

Well, discoveries and inventions usually find their use WAY outside their intended use.

Think about this, Galileo, who worked in a glasses shop, is considered as one of the early known inventor of compound microscope. Now by the same token, what is the use of seeing really small objects like cells. Or very small living creatures like amoeba etc? During the time of Galileo, microbes model of disease was not fully formed. People suspected something living might be causing some diseases but no one knew what it was. These were all conjectures. Heck, this theory was not fully proved till 18XX by Louise Pasture. Compound Microscope or magnification by multiple lens could only have very limited use. For instance in watch making. Studying microbes itself was not as useful.

It was only later when people linked microbes and disease (as in 18XX by Louise Pasture), study of small organisms had a lifesaving impact.

Did Galileo knew or INTENDED that his discovery will have a life saving use? Did those who studied very small microbes knew the impact of their work on microbes? Perhaps a bit, but arguably not as much. Only after Louise Pasture formulated his theory of microbes causing disease, these entire pieces started to snap and fit into complete puzzle and we now have a life saving science called modern medical field.

Science and technology has a lot of chance in it. Its not something you can completely plan out and execute in a top down manner. Thats why each nation should spend a part of their revenue in pursuit of science and technology. Even if you spend that money on more seemingly practical use, it is likely that you won't have as much value in present as you might have in future -- many times simply accidentally.