THE "MOON"...Ah, the moon!!!

[GumNaam]

Everything starts as an experiment...
Even if it takes more money.
Who said space science can't make your life on Earth better ...
Do you know about solar flares and how they effect communication satellites.
Do you know how asteroids lurk in grey zones in solar system .one such asteroid will send all of us to Graves and earth to ice age

Maybe. Everything starts with a NEED that lets to experiments. Solar flairs can be detected via satellites and all though can be dangerous, what are you gonna go? Go to a planet farther away where we don't the need sunlight to sustain life as we know it? And asteroids too are normally detected by satellite. Oh, by the way, steroids are EVERY where in our solar system...the asteroid belt is closer to mars than to earth and your solution for getting away from asteroids is...to colonize a planet closest to the asteroid belt....can you even spell "logic"? phuleeez don't experiment with anything sharp!

 

[kris]

Maybe. Everything starts with a NEED that lets to experiments. Solar flairs can be detected via satellites and all though can be dangerous, what are you gonna go? Go to a planet farther away where we don't the need sunlight to sustain life as we know it? And asteroids too are normally detected by satellite. Oh, by the way, steroids are EVERY where in our solar system...the asteroid belt is closer to mars than to earth and your solution for getting away from asteroids is...to colonize a planet closest to the asteroid belt....can you even spell "logic"? phuleeez don't experiment with anything sharp!

Great mind.... That's why you are still wondering here..
After finding a solar flares what are you going to do. Just sit and watch or do something???
And you could be next 'whatever' for downplaying importance of asteroids. Even today best agencies like NASA can't confidently say that no asteroid is coming to hit us. All of sudden one asteroid comes of such grey zones surprising Astro community.

Logic, nevermind

 

[GumNaam]

Great mind.... That's why you are still wondering here..
After finding a solar flares what are you going to do. Just sit and watch or do something???
And you could be next 'whatever' for downplaying importance of asteroids. Even today best agencies like NASA can't confidently say that no asteroid is coming to hit us. All of sudden one asteroid comes of such grey zones surprising Astro community.

Logic, nevermind

ok then mister logic, let's discuss both solar flares & asteroids shall we? Let's define our physical limits & options, shall we?

solar flare options:
we physically can't go farther away from the sun cuz we need that sunlight to LIVE!
we physically can't go closer to it cuz life on venus & mercury is hell and we will fry.
we physcially can't go searching for similar star in the galaxy or solar system cuz getting their would get DECADES if not CENTURIES and then there's the issue of finding a planet that receives JUST the right amount of sunlight needed to sustain life as we know it and EVEN then, we'll face the SAME issue of solar flares from THAT star, DUH!
that leaves only ONE develop tech that is resistant to solar flares, that can be done RIGHT here on earth.

astroids:
we can't go farther away from the astroid belt cuz that will either take us closer to the sun or take us farther away from it into the belly of a gaseous planet that has acid rains and oceans of methane, good luck surviving their.
we can't eradicate the entire astroid belt cuz first off, its impossible and secondly, it'll only create MORE astroids that will be flying in all directions.
only 2 interdepentent options left: develop satellites and put them in orbit around the earth that can monitor our entire surrounding space with enough focus to give us a heads up on when an astroid IS approaching us. then develop mechanisms to destroy those astroids or preferably deflect their trajectory to where it will bypass the earth...destroying is not really an option perse since some of the astroids are just far too big and dense to be nuked into shatters even if we use all the nukes on the planet. Having said that, both of these can ALSO can be developed RIGHT here earth...NO DEEP SPACE TRAVELING required; JUST need rockets to reach those astroids for which, the rockets that are used to launch satellites (with some minor tweeks) are MORE than enough to do the job!

your turn. I expect an ACTUAL well thought out reply instead of the typical indian useless cliche comments you and your types usually fart out!

 

[Cookie Monster]

Using analogies about individual behavior in making choices simply do not apply to the behavior of nations when determining allocation of resources for pursuing national interests.

Just as Pakistan decided to spend its resources on nuclear weapons instead of on social development, other countries may decide to spend their own resources on space exploration instead of eradicating poverty or other similar goals. Both are equally valid.

By that reasoning u can condone any behavior whether positive or negative and justify it as being "subjectively valid" from the perspective of some person or a collective of ppl(a nation).

But we all know that's not how the world works. U can in fact weigh pros and cons objectively whether at an individual level or at a national level. A fine example of this is Trump's border wall idea. R u saying that it's not going to be a waste of money? Bcuz if we look at it objectively...it is indeed a huge waste of money...since most of the illegal immigration happens by ppl coming into the US legally...and then overstaying.

Just like that we can objectively look at Pak's nukes u brought into the discussion. We have already seen two nations avoiding direct conflict with each other due to the threat of MAD before India/Pak acquired nukes...namely the US and USSR. Then once Pak/India had nukes we saw the same trend...prior to that they engaged in 3 wars. After they went nuclear there hasn't been any full scale wars like those 3. There have been skirmishes and troop buildups...but war has been averted every time due to the possible risk of MAD if things escalated. So if u calculate the cost of a full scale war(destruction to industry, infrastructure, human capital, setbacks to economic growth during and after the war, and the cost of war materials everything from bullets to bandages)...add to it the possibility of war recurring again...and again...so long there is potential for conflict...
...then compare it to the cost of nukes...which seems to have stopped full scale wars...it is definitely worth it to have nukes.

 

[VCheng]

By that reasoning u can condone any behavior whether positive or negative and justify it as being "subjectively valid" from the perspective of some person or a collective of ppl(a nation).

Look at it this way: Every nation pursues its own national interests, and tries to do so as best as it can given whatever resources and abilities it possesses. From their perspective, this is the right thing to do, whatever it entails. But then this justification may not be readily apparent or agreeable to someone else.

Similarly, the wall, the bomb or the moon shots are all a matter of perspective, and the prerogative of sovereign nations to allocate their resources as they see fit, no matter whether others share or agree with their perspective. For each one, one can find points of view both for and against, but the validity of the decisions taken remains.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Look at it this way: Every nation pursues its own national interests, and tries to do so as best as it can given whatever resources and abilities it possesses. From their perspective, this is the right thing to do, whatever it entails. But then this justification may not be readily apparent or agreeable to someone else.

Similarly, the wall, the bomb or the moon shots are all a matter of perspective, and the prerogative of sovereign nations to allocate their resources as they see fit, no matter whether others share or agree with their perspective. For each one, one can find points of view both for and against, but the validity of the decisions taken remains.

And like I said...by that reasoning u can justify any action...then there would be no "right" and "wrong". So then corruption is fine too...from a certain "perspective"?
I bet according to Zardari(and the likes of him) he sees it as right to "allocate(into his Swiss accounts) the resources[of the nation] as [he] sees fit, no matter whether others share or agree with [his] perspective."

I standby my statement that although space programs are beneficial for a nation...however it shouldn't come at the expense of a suffering population(due to poverty and a host of other related problems).

 

[VCheng]

And like I said...by that reasoning u can justify any action...then there would be no "right" and "wrong". So then corruption is fine too...from a certain "perspective"?
I bet according to Zardari(and the likes of him) he sees it as right to "allocate(into his Swiss accounts) the resources[of the nation] as [he] sees fit, no matter whether others share or agree with [his] perspective."

I standby my statement that although space programs are beneficial for a nation...however it shouldn't come at the expense of a suffering population(due to poverty and a host of other related problems).

Concepts of morality such as "right" and "wrong" that belong in the personal domain are simply not applicable in international geopolitics, where national interests reign supreme.

Your personal views about space programs as stated above are hypocritical since the same logic should be applied to nuclear weapons too, using the same rationale of a suffering population, but of course you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Concepts of morality such as "right" and "wrong" that belong in the personal domain are simply not applicable in international geopolitics, where national interests reign supreme.

So then the Nazi party and Hitler's vision(Mein Kampf) was right according to u? He wanted to take over Poland and other surrounding countries in the name of "national interest".

Your personal views about space programs as stated above are hypocritical since the same logic should be applied to nuclear weapons too, using the same rationale of a suffering population, but of course you are entitled to your opinion.

It would be hypocritical if I based it on some unfounded reason like nationalism. I don't know why it escaped u the argument I provided just two posts ago.

I gave u a detailed response about how the cost of full scale war in absence of nukes far outweighs the expenses spent on nukes. Way before that I said in one of my posts that if Pak was in a situation like that of Switzerland or Costa Rica with no enemy and no active conflicts with another nation...it would definitely be a waste to spend on nukes rather than the ppl. To reach both of my conclusions regarding nukes and space programs I weighed the pros and cons.

Can u point out the hypocrisy? Perhaps by presenting some solid reasoning instead of "it's right from someone else's perspective".

 

[VCheng]

Can u point out the hypocrisy? Perhaps by presenting some solid reasoning instead of "it's right from someone else's perspective".

Let me ask you if the roles were reversed and it were a Pakistani mission to the moon instead of India's, what would the arguments be?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Let me ask you if the roles were reversed and it were a Pakistani mission to the moon instead of India's, what would the arguments be?

The same...I have also pointed this out in one of my previous posts if only u paid attention.

It's not just the moon mission...that is just one mission. It is the billions spent on a space program while a good portion of the population suffers. If Pak spent those same billions on a space program while the ppl were plagued with poverty(and related problems)...I would argue the same...that it's a wasteful expenditure at this moment in time. First improve the condition of the ppl THEN once the country is developed(standard of living improved) go ahead and focus on a space program.

 

[VCheng]

The same...I have also pointed this out in one of my previous posts if only u paid attention.

It's not just the moon mission...that is just one mission. It is the billions spent on a space program while a good portion of the population suffers. If Pak spent those same billions on a space program while the ppl were plagued with poverty(and related problems)...I would argue the same...that it's a wasteful expenditure at this moment in time. First improve the condition of the ppl THEN once the country is developed(standard of living improved) go ahead and focus on a space program.

Thank you for that explanation. Does this mean you are not in favor of funding SUPARCO at the present time?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Thank you for that explanation. Does this mean you are not in favor of funding SUPARCO at the present time?

Yes

 

[VCheng]

Yes

And yet Pakistan continues to fund SUPARCO to the tune of tens of millions of dollars despite an economic crisis. What rationale could it possibly have for doing such a thing as a matter of national policy?

 

[Cookie Monster]

And yet Pakistan continues to fund SUPARCO to the tune of tens of millions of dollars despite an economic crisis. What rationale could it possibly have for doing such a thing as a matter of national policy?

I can't answer for the state of Pakistan. I'm simply stating my take on the subject, which applies to any country X in my books. If ur ppl are starving ur first priority is to tend to them...luxuries can be postponed for later once all is good with the ppl u serve(or are supposed to serve).

 

[VCheng]

I can't answer for the state of Pakistan. I'm simply stating my take on the subject, which applies to any country X in my books. If ur ppl are starving ur first priority is to tend to them...luxuries can be postponed for later once all is good with the ppl u serve(or are supposed to serve).

Exactly. While we all are entitled to opinions, national interests do not go by personal concepts such as these. Children are dying of starvation in Thar, but Pakistan must do whatever serves its national interests given whatever resources and abilities it can muster, just like the attempted Indian moon landing. There is no difference here.