The Luck Of The Chinese

[Moscow]

I think the title of this thread is a little unfair and incomplete regarding China.
The thread indicates as if the Chinese had all the luck on the world and basically achieved technology by theft and copying others.
A debate in this thread would only be fair if there was a neutral and honest view about Chinas technological achievements, so on the other hand, China is known for copying and reproducing certain elements to suit their own needs, and the other side, the Chinese are at the same time very intentive and their scientists come up with great technology to counter e.g. Russian or American hardware.
Keep it balanced but don't go off saying that the Chinese are copycats, that makes no sense, they invented countless things and their scientists are continuing with their advancements.

both the thread and its title is derived from an article printed o the webby an american website.i think i printed the link if not i will give you the link.
thanks but your analysis sir is also true and it would have being better if some of the chinese achievements were also mentioned.
thanx

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

wel didnt the russians copied the desighn of B-29 Super Fortress Airplane. after the 2nd worldwar
today its the capability and to produce and use high tech wepons which realy matters.

If China does it then i guess its fair. Many European nations copy US milletery hardware..

For instance take eg of BABUR cruise missile dosent it resembels american tomahawk .

its by copying you get to learn and after that yo apply your ideas to make something totally new.

Its a cruel world . People are doing genocide , massacers and blowing their self up for killing innocent people and yet guys here r having a debate on stealing millitery technology.
Its the right of every nation to do whatever it can for the sake of its guranteed national security.
i say its right if China copies high tech milletery harware .
i say its right if Iran becomes Nuclear Power
i say its right if Pakistan become ICBM power
i say its right if HAMAS has long rang rockets
i say its right if hezbollah is armed with anti tank and anti aircraft missiles.
i say its right if Russia develops a hypersonic missile which can peneterate any US missile defence sheild
i say its right if US develops a missile defence sheild which can stop any missile attacking its soil

More the level of Strong and moderen defence less is the probability of being attacked.

Survival of the strongest. that the rule of jungle

 

[shchinese]

You just contradicted yourself over your previous post. Lol, want me to make fun of your funny chinese accent? Even if you fellows speak English, all you can hear is .....

You ignorant piece of drivel...
First you say we have only one language that being English, and then you say your culture which is thousands of years old is very important. Atleast we are perfect in what we know, what about you chinese? Cant even communicate properly in English, got tensions between two groups of people who speak the only two languages in mainland China!!! LOL these Chinese do that here in US too....in Chinese accent- " Oh i dont like him/her coz he/she speaks the other language" ....

And now you say that knowing many languages is a handicap and Indian culture, which is as old as yours if not older, is not important?

You seem to be one piece of broken feng shui ****!! Do you even know what you are talking about u ignorant doltish piece of crap.

Check out these links if you've got some time and brains to comprehend and analyze those reports!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/business/22bizpoll.html

Do cheap Chinese goods have to mean trade-off in quality? - USATODAY.com

You guys only know how to copy things nut for nut, bolt for bolt!! Atleast Indians are trying to develop on their own albeit with some help from others. Yes we face failures but we try and improve.
What about you eh? If your copying doesnt work, grab something else and copy that nut-for-nut, bolt-for-bolt!!

ps: apologies to other forum members for this personal rant...this dude doesnt know what hes saying here!

you damn stupid motherland even couldn't make those cheap products. keep this in your mind: LCA and Arjun do NOT work even after 30 years of R&D.

talk about quality? maybe we should start this with LCA and Arjun.

 

[SherdiL!]

you damn stupid motherland even couldn't make those cheap products. keep this in your mind: LCA and Arjun do NOT work even after 30 years of R&D.

talk about quality? maybe we should start this with LCA and Arjun.

hey chinese bro ! no need to get all hyped all i love the false claims by Indians just simply ingore them they watch too much bollywood movies and illetrates !

 

[shchinese]

After studing China for while, the CCP will do whatever it takes to stay in power. Since the tide of modernization has been turned, the pressure on CCP to keep up with world will be even greater. The tactics they use are really not familiar with the world, to copy and mimic the products. In a way they have to keep a quasi-free market system roling. And you really do not have to go so far of how there coping systems works. Just look at the cars they manufacturer in China. It is copied from the engine to aerodynamics, which looks exactly like the car there are coping.

The problem is not coping per sa, since it is there country, but they are losing out in other important aspects, like safety for example.

the massive population in india is in general unfortunate because you don't have any party remotely comparable to the CCP. a few examples:

1. the CCP largely promoted the rights for all women in the early 1950s and 1960s, now the number of female engineers working on our satellite program is even more than male engineers. this is the largest progress any modern country has ever made.

2. the CCP quickly increase the life expectancy of Chinese, the national stats is now 74 compared to india's 64 shitty result. in many large cities like Shanghai, the life expectancy is even higher than western europe's standard. for us, this is called human right, as the first human right that come to anyone's mind should be the rights to live. your parties/regime is letting your citizens to die at 64,what a huge load of crap.

3. the CCP implemented a reasonable good education system for such a huge developing countries. 99% of our kids attend schools for at least 9 years, while Indian female kids in general simply don't have such chance. Every year, we have 10 million students taking the university enterance exam and 5-6 million of them would be admitted into universities. this is human right as everyone should be ensured the equal right to develop him/herself.

4. the CCP implemented a wide range of industries which India simply couldn't afford to have. for example, since 2000, the CCP has been pushing very hard for a domestic designed CPU named godson, now we even have scientists/engineers working on cutting edge supercomputers built on top of that CPU.

5. the CCP doesn't talk much, they just work damn hard and lead the people to the scheduled goals on time again and again. on the other hand our lovely Indian neighbours keep talking but nothing get done. the best example is the Arjun crap was first shown to its public for propaganda purpose in 1984, after 25 years of such propaganda, arjun is still not ready to be put into service. the CCP never has such bad habits, they spend 90% of their time working hard, not talking lot.

next time, when you mention the word "CCP", you need to be much more grateful, as that is the party which decided not to capture New Delhi during the 1962 war. at the time of that war, your capital is already within sight of our troops.

 

[shchinese]

hey chinese bro ! no need to get all hyped all i love the false claims by Indians just simply ingore them they watch too much bollywood movies and illetrates !

I just couldn't help.

when even their armed forces refuse to order more arjuns for quality concerns, how could they just stand out and blame the quality of Chinese products.

 

[rajk20002002]

the massive population in india is in general unfortunate because you don't have any party remotely comparable to the CCP. a few examples:

1. the CCP largely promoted the rights for all women in the early 1950s and 1960s, now the number of female engineers working on our satellite program is even more than male engineers. this is the largest progress any modern country has ever made.

2. the CCP quickly increase the life expectancy of Chinese, the national stats is now 74 compared to india's 64 shitty result. in many large cities like Shanghai, the life expectancy is even higher than western europe's standard. for us, this is called human right, as the first human right that come to anyone's mind should be the rights to live. your parties/regime is letting your citizens to die at 64,what a huge load of crap.

3. the CCP implemented a reasonable good education system for such a huge developing countries. 99% of our kids attend schools for at least 9 years, while Indian female kids in general simply don't have such chance. Every year, we have 10 million students taking the university enterance exam and 5-6 million of them would be admitted into universities. this is human right as everyone should be ensured the equal right to develop him/herself.

4. the CCP implemented a wide range of industries which India simply couldn't afford to have. for example, since 2000, the CCP has been pushing very hard for a domestic designed CPU named godson, now we even have scientists/engineers working on cutting edge supercomputers built on top of that CPU.

5. the CCP doesn't talk much, they just work damn hard and lead the people to the scheduled goals on time again and again. on the other hand our lovely Indian neighbours keep talking but nothing get done. the best example is the Arjun crap was first shown to its public for propaganda purpose in 1984, after 25 years of such propaganda, arjun is still not ready to be put into service. the CCP never has such bad habits, they spend 90% of their time working hard, not talking lot.

next time, when you mention the word "CCP", you need to be much more grateful, as that is the party which decided not to capture New Delhi during the 1962 war. at the time of that war, your capital is already within sight of our troops.

Typical paid Communist Propaganda machine in action..

RK

 

[jeypore]

the massive population in india is in general unfortunate because you don't have any party remotely comparable to the CCP. a few examples:

1. the CCP largely promoted the rights for all women in the early 1950s and 1960s, now the number of female engineers working on our satellite program is even more than male engineers. this is the largest progress any modern country has ever made.

2. the CCP quickly increase the life expectancy of Chinese, the national stats is now 74 compared to india's 64 shitty result. in many large cities like Shanghai, the life expectancy is even higher than western europe's standard. for us, this is called human right, as the first human right that come to anyone's mind should be the rights to live. your parties/regime is letting your citizens to die at 64,what a huge load of crap.

3. the CCP implemented a reasonable good education system for such a huge developing countries. 99% of our kids attend schools for at least 9 years, while Indian female kids in general simply don't have such chance. Every year, we have 10 million students taking the university enterance exam and 5-6 million of them would be admitted into universities. this is human right as everyone should be ensured the equal right to develop him/herself.

4. the CCP implemented a wide range of industries which India simply couldn't afford to have. for example, since 2000, the CCP has been pushing very hard for a domestic designed CPU named godson, now we even have scientists/engineers working on cutting edge supercomputers built on top of that CPU.

5. the CCP doesn't talk much, they just work damn hard and lead the people to the scheduled goals on time again and again. on the other hand our lovely Indian neighbours keep talking but nothing get done. the best example is the Arjun crap was first shown to its public for propaganda purpose in 1984, after 25 years of such propaganda, arjun is still not ready to be put into service. the CCP never has such bad habits, they spend 90% of their time working hard, not talking lot.

next time, when you mention the word "CCP", you need to be much more grateful, as that is the party which decided not to capture New Delhi during the 1962 war. at the time of that war, your capital is already within sight of our troops.

I think sir you did not understand my post.

If you re-read again, what i was explaining that your quasi-free market society has to copy in order for the internal market production. The pressure on CCP is greater to produce, since they have started the economic reforms and to keep up with the people demands. If they cannot meet the expectation, there will be revolt, and CCP knows that.

That is why in the down turn economy know, the CCP is trying to pump more money in the system, since the loss of jobs have immediately created strikes against the goverment. And other examples I can give is the old banks of china, which was controlled by the CCP. The default rate is high as 49% since early 2000 yr. Just to keep the economy churnning and not be affected, the CCP has constantly pump money into these bankrupt banks just to keep them afloat.

So the conclusion to all this ranting by me is that, in order to fast grow the economy there is no time for innovation because it would require time, but coping and starting cheap productions creates fast jobs. That is what CCP is doing to keep there people happy, which is predominantly HANS.

 

[hanmya]

you damn stupid motherland even couldn't make those cheap products. keep this in your mind: LCA and Arjun do NOT work even after 30 years of R&D.

talk about quality? maybe we should start this with LCA and Arjun.

Lol! Look who's talking about CHEAP products!!! Quality? What do YOU know about quality!

We never said anything about the LCA and the Arjun being super successes!!!
India didnt have any experience on independently developing fighterplanes. The last was, IIRC, the Marut, and that was a 2nd generation fighter. LCA is a 4.5th generation plane, so difference in technology is very vast to be covered without much experience. LCA was supposed to be a collaboration between various companies, but post-Pokhran, due to sanctions, the project got stalled and then we had to develop many things on our own.

Arjun MBT is mostly a white elephant, we do accept that. But hell, atleast it's given us some important data/experience about what to do next! Its not as if it didnt start at all or failed to fire its gun on the move, just that the army had specific requirements and it didnt meet a better percentage of them. As simple as that!

Yes we proudly acknowledge the fact that these projects did fail to meet certain requirements, but what the hell, we are learning from our mistakes! Unlike like copying everything bolt-for-bolt!!

Heck even in the scientific world, you chinese are manufacturing patented drugs which the world market is very apprenhensive about buying. Generics made in China, patients say - "no thank you!". How do I know this? Lets say I know a lot about medicinal drugs!

The less said about your scientific publications the better! Chinese papers are frequently rejected for publication, for they make claims which cannot be replicated in other labs!! What does that make such results? FALSE!! When asked to provide more details they simply don't respond back!

Check out the Indian media reports about LCA and Arjun, and see how well they are criticized there! What about your media...Oh, sorry you dont have any independent media...you only have your govt barkdogs!!

You govt decides things to do, and you all do it! Kinda bloody herd mentality, aint it? The best minds in the world come up with ideas and you only mass produce them...using cheap labor! And even those copied goods are mostly substandard. Go figure!

 

[RedBaron]

sure. that is the reason why I am here.

here is just a quick summary of the India & China compared chart, let's just use this as the conclusion Sino-India comparison.

India Watch :: India - China Comparison

First off, let me confess that I admire China for lifting itself out of misery after the Cultural Revolution. Its leaders like Deng Xiaoping had exceptional vision and his successors have relentlessly focused on the vision of a resurgent China. The result has been a healthy and prosperous population living in clean and indeed glittering cities. By its sheer economic power, China has silenced the US govt effectively. It has truly got the US by its b*lls. US companies are totally dependent on Chinese factories for their production. (My US neighbor here is a toy distributor who visits China twice a year and is one example). The one-party system may have curtailed some rights but it was a small price to pay for delivering prosperity to such a large population. It is a disciplined society.

I agree India compares poorly with China on a macro- or micro- economic scale. Our chaotic democracy has not delivered its promise and almost half the people live in poverty. The bureaucracy stifled the potential of the Indian people for 40+ years. However, India has done a few smart things:
- India did start the liberalization process in 90s and GDP growth skyrocketed from 3% to 8%
- India has been focusing on high-margin "services" instead of lower-margin manufacturing jobs. These highly skilled jobs have higher entry barriers.
- Indian corporations are making smart acquisitions: While Chinese car-makers are still trying to penetrate US market, Tata bought Land Rover and Jaguar which are already well-established here.
- Building a trusting relationship with US led to the NSG waiver which will lead to the choicest technologies in nuclear energy being transferred to India.
- India's banking system is more transparent and robust than China's (ratio of good loans/bad loans). I can dig out some Goldman Sachs report for you.
- Lastly, India successfully preserved centuries of culture that gives it a unique vibrant identity. The Cultural Revolution erased much of the same in China's case.

China also has some challenges:
- China's only Achilles heel is its aging population. As your data indicates, the average age of the Chinese is 33 and life expectancy is 74. This means China will eventually face the same problem that Europe does: social welfare for senior citizens. The One Child policy put the brakes on population growth, but a side-effect is an eventual reduction in workforce.
- Also, the current global slowdown has cast a dampener on the red-hot growth as 30% of China's economy depends on export. The govt is a bit worried about social unrest. See: BBC NEWS | Business | China's exports in record decline

On a less serious note, I think Chinese telecom vendors won't complain about India. E.g. Chinese companies like Huawei have capitalized on India's telecom boom and will only encourage India to grow faster.

To sum up, China has done extremely well for itself but needs to watch out for some challenges ahead. India needs to improve further and is working on it!

 

[Neo]

wtf, I just want to call you loser.

how about checking the names of some top science/tech publications? how many Chinese names you see?

indians doing the R&D and Chinese doing the testing? you damn stupid indian even couldn't build a mobile phone system from scratch.

can you build the chip/phone/software stack/core network gears of the 20 years old GSM network? no, you can't. you can't do any of this.

you stupid loser.

zombie: here I formally request you to avoid replying any of my post/thread, you have successfully proved that you know nothing about this civilized world. thanks.

Abusive language and insults are not tollerated here, try to kill the message not the messenger!
Consider this a warning!

 

[Neo]

Hey MORON, stop getting personal here!
You wanna know the standards about your Chinese products? Melamine in food, Lead in paint used for kids toys.....bird flu....want me to list some more???

Read the post carefully about what I was trying to say! ...Oh yes! I forget, how can you read between the lines? Pity, poor you don't seem to have a proper grasp of this particular language, the lingua franca of the world! And you want to dominate the world! Ha!

You wanna show a desi the pics of his/her own country...what a moron!

See I can get personal too. Dont provoke me!

Same warning for you too!

 

[Neo]

More personal attacks or insults from anyone will result in a ban without further warnings!

 

[RedBaron]

...
next time, when you mention the word "CCP", you need to be much more grateful, as that is the party which decided not to capture New Delhi during the 1962 war. at the time of that war, your capital is already within sight of our troops.

I generally appreciated your post till I came across the above. I hope you mean it figuratively, as this has no basis in truth. Chinese troops "in sight of Delhi"? How is that? China decided to return to the McMahon line in NEFA (as Arunachal Pradesh was then called) in the north-east, and stopped after capturing Aksai Chin plateau in the north-west, for two simple reasons:
1> Their supply lines were extended. Advancing over territory is far easier than holding it. Overextended supply lines run the risk of being cutoff into isolated pockets. Chinese could never advance to the plains.
2> They did not want to risk US intervention, as after the Cuban crisis subsided, US attention would again turn to the war on communism and they could be tempted to intervene....

 

[PAFAce]

LCA is a 4.5th generation plane

This is where I stopped reading.

I am sick of people calling the Chinese 'cheaters' because they can reverse engineer like nobody's business. I am a senior engineering student, and I know that one of the most difficult engineering capabilities to master is reverse engineering. There are many advantages to using reverse engineering techniques, for example, they can give u an edge over your competitors, or bring you up-to-par with them. Every corporation, fron Sony to BMW, utilizes reverse engineering, but nobody would call them 'cheaters'. Also, in engineering, a 'copy' does not mean inferior. Examples of 'copies' being better than the original can be found in every industry, from cell phones to automobiles to the gaming industry.

That being said, I should also let you guys know that the country with the world's leading defence industry, the US, started out with 'copies' of German designs, as admitted by Americans themselves. German engineers, after WWI and WWII, were heavily recruited by the Americans and the British, and even the Russians (rocket technology). These engineers worked in various industries, from Formula 1 to the space industry and even consumer electronics. As a matter of fact, the space industry in the USSR and the US owed German ex-Nazis a great deal. The Americans who frequent these forums will tell you how, every once in a while, you hear something in the news about an ex-Nazi being given pardon by the govt. in return for his engineering expertise.

So please, don't write ignorant and hate-filled comments simply because you could not engineer something better than someone else.