The Luck Of The Chinese

[anand]

This is where I stopped reading.

I am sick of people calling the Chinese 'cheaters' because they can reverse engineer like nobody's business. I am a senior engineering student, and I know that one of the most difficult engineering capabilities to master is reverse engineering. There are many advantages to using reverse engineering techniques, for example, they can give u an edge over your competitors, or bring you up-to-par with them. Every corporation, fron Sony to BMW, utilizes reverse engineering, but nobody would call them 'cheaters'. Also, in engineering, a 'copy' does not mean inferior. Examples of 'copies' being better than the original can be found in every industry, from cell phones to automobiles to the gaming industry.

That being said, I should also let you guys know that the country with the world's leading defence industry, the US, started out with 'copies' of German designs, as admitted by Americans themselves. German engineers, after WWI and WWII, were heavily recruited by the Americans and the British, and even the Russians (rocket technology). These engineers worked in various industries, from Formula 1 to the space industry and even consumer electronics. As a matter of fact, the space industry in the USSR and the US owed German ex-Nazis a great deal. The Americans who frequent these forums will tell you how, every once in a while, you hear something in the news about an ex-Nazi being given pardon by the govt. in return for his engineering expertise.

So please, don't write ignorant and hate-filled comments simply because you could not engineer something better than someone else.

Whether Chinese are cheater or not that i will leave to individual perceptions. But what Chinese has done is not reverse engineering. It was simple copy paste. When china was developing its industries, they did not import equipments, rather they strengthened their manufacturing industry and manufactured all equipments. By doing so they got two things, first all the drawings of equipment and second experience to manufacture those equipments. I do not know about defense industry. But i can tell you about two industries (of which i have gt exposure since it is my field), Power and steel. Chinese are supplying equipments at cheaper rate than Europeans.

Chinese emergence has benefited India immensely. First it has broken European monopoly and helped small industries to start project with small capital.

This has forced Europeans to slash price of critical equipments, by shifting manufacturing to china, thus benefiting both china and India.
There is no shame in accepting that china has better manufacturing abilities than India, whereas India's strength lies in services.

 

[Moscow]

you posted the original article again.

 

[paritosh]

please reply with the context of this thread in mind. no one here cares whether you can catch up or not, I won't care any little bit. that is I don't want to point out figures to show that india is a backward state, I don't care this at least in this thread.

this thread is about the technology "clone" and "steal" and my point of view here in simple - nations like the US/EU and Russia have every reason to blame the copyright issues currently that can be observed in China, however there is no say for India - you don't blame other people just because you even couldn't copy.

Arjun is a copy of the German tank, LCA has clear EU background including the engine in development, the whole political system in India is COPIED from UK. The only differences are the above craps are all failures after decades of experiments.

However, if you check some members here in this thread, one is claiming that Huawei rely on Indians to be successful...with craps like this, how to "catch up"?

we couldn't copy?
any nation capable of licensed manufacturing is copying...has copied and will copy...albeit the 'copies' would be legitimate!
india...pakistan do that all the time!
now the curious case of china was that you built exact copies of russian planes!
now you'd love to counter...but when you post a reply...also explain why the chinese dint come up with a plane similar to the american or the EU platforms(i used 'similar' to avoid any friction)...
the chinese dint come up with copies of american planes...not because of ethics...or becuse the american planes have been inferior to russian planes...but because they couldn't get there hands to any!
India has been producing mig-21s for a long time...but we dint change their name to F-7!
it was the sino-soviet split..and you started copying...
as far as the the arjun and lca are concerned...i dont think that you are fully aware of the problems that have plagued us in recent times...copying the german tech would have been the easier way out...but wouldnt have helped us in the longer run....arjun's development...has a hierarchical development nature....and the lca....is made of carbon composite...we could have copied the mirage and made an easier-to-be-manufactured copy...but we chose not to...there is a short-term solution and thers a long-term alternative to it...the short-term alternative of copying looks the most promising...but the longer route of slow learning wins hands down in the end..that longer-route is democracy my friend.

 

[PAFAce]

we couldn't copy?
any nation capable of licensed manufacturing is copying...has copied and will copy...albeit the 'copies' would be legitimate!
india...pakistan do that all the time!
now the curious case of china was that you built exact copies of russian planes!
now you'd love to counter...but when you post a reply...also explain why the chinese dint come up with a plane similar to the american or the EU platforms(i used 'similar' to avoid any friction)...
the chinese dint come up with copies of american planes...not because of ethics...or becuse the american planes have been inferior to russian planes...but because they couldn't get there hands to any!
India has been producing mig-21s for a long time...but we dint change their name to F-7!
it was the sino-soviet split..and you started copying...
as far as the the arjun and lca are concerned...i dont think that you are fully aware of the problems that have plagued us in recent times...copying the german tech would have been the easier way out...but wouldnt have helped us in the longer run....arjun's development...has a hierarchical development nature....and the lca....is made of carbon composite...we could have copied the mirage and made an easier-to-be-manufactured copy...but we chose not to...there is a short-term solution and thers a long-term alternative to it...the short-term alternative of copying looks the most promising...but the longer route of slow learning wins hands down in the end..that longer-route is democracy my friend.

It's like, everything I say goes in one eye and out the other, without contacting any neurons. All companies 'copy' competitors. You don't need to have a product in your possession to be able to reverse engineer it. You can look at its pictures, get its drawings etc. The jet engine was first used by the Germans in WWII. According to you, we have all been copying them since 1945.

"I disagree with what you say, but will defend to death your right to say it". However, I implore you (by you, I mean all China-haters) to try and be sensible.

 

[Moscow]

just read these two seperate press interviews,the point is everyone copies but there is no point in accepting the influence of foreign assistance.

anyways the thread says luck of the chinese it does not say what the chinese is doing is bad infact it a success on the part of china that they attained so much without major hasseles. the thread aims to praise the chinese achievement rather than undermining it.


In an interview, the general designer of J-10, Mr. Song Wencong (宋文&#39586 said, "Our nation's new fighter's external design and aerodynamics configuration are completely made by us and did not receive foreign assistance, this made me very proud. Our nation developed J-9 in the 1960s, this adopted the canard configuration. So, those statements that said J-10 is a copy of Israeli Lavi are just laughable."[15]


The strongest admission of Israeli complicity in the J-10's development by Israeli authorities appeared in a statement made by an official as American authorities investigated alleged Lavi technology transfers to China. The Director General of Israel's Ministry of Defense David Lari "acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that 'some technology on aircraft' had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have 'clean hands'".[18]. The context of the article strongly substantiates military technology being transferred between Israeli and the Chinese defense institutions,

thanx

 

[paritosh]

It's like, everything I say goes in one eye and out the other, without contacting any neurons. All companies 'copy' competitors. You don't need to have a product in your possession to be able to reverse engineer it. You can look at its pictures, get its drawings etc. The jet engine was first used by the Germans in WWII. According to you, we have all been copying them since 1945.

"I disagree with what you say, but will defend to death your right to say it". However, I implore you (by you, I mean all China-haters) to try and be sensible.

yes....licensed manufacturing is indeed that simple...nothing to feel proud about.
getting the blue-prints of a fighter-plane are not that simple...and the task of building a plane from photos is really not that easy.even the americans 'stole' soviet and russian planes from allied countries to study them...this is a well documented fact...meaning that mere photos and blue-prints were not enough for even the americans....
and as far as the jet engine is concerned...there is no copy-right infringement in that...the British were already working on their model at the same time as the germans.....nobody sued nobody

 

[PAFAce]

yes....licensed manufacturing is indeed that simple...nothing to feel proud about.
getting the blue-prints of a fighter-plane are not that simple...and the task of building a plane from photos is really not that easy.even the americans 'stole' soviet and russian planes from allied countries to study them...this is a well documented fact...meaning that mere photos and blue-prints were not enough for even the americans....
and as far as the jet engine is concerned...there is no copy-right infringement in that...the British were already working on their model at the same time as the germans.....nobody sued nobody

The allies after WWII, unlike the Indians with the LCA, did not feel the need to 're-invent the wheel' and gained existing German knowledge quickly so that they could improve on it. The German jet-engine tech was light-years ahead, and was immediately adopted, so don't argue this with me. The Chinese are doing the same, and if they are using the licenses that were legally granted to them, its perfectly legitimate and there is no 'cheating'. When you read a book, you are not 'copying' the author, you are learning from him. On the other hand, if they have gained access to secret Russian Intellectual Property or Classified Documents, which I believe is what you are suggesting, then it is immoral and illegal, but nothing new. Everyone does it, singling out the Chinese is not fair. I am sure the Indians did a bit of snooping around of their own when designing the LCA.

 

[Fennecus]

Like the poster above me, the earliest jet technology that the U.S. and Soviet Union churned out were almost replicas of early German fighter technology. (I.E. Operation Lusty)

Isn't it the smart thing to do?

Just consider that question for a moment.

Doesn't make sense? Consider this example.

If I can pay 5 dollars to someone to give me the blueprints for his company's best product, why would I spend 100 dollars and double the time to try and start from scratch?

 

[paritosh]

read my posts again i never differed on the jet engine...just as the tank is a british innovation and the ballistic missile is a german one(though tipu sultan should be credited for the use of rocket missiles)
so jet engine,tank and missiles fall in the same category...they were invented...and then built by different armies of the world uniquely to suit there needs.
the Lca caters to the indian needs...which similar planes cant...
bit of snooping is a commonplace but...renaming a russian fighter and selling it as a chinese product is what i feel is not right...our developing the Kaveri and not buying engines is something that would put our engine development tech at a competitve level...it's all about the long run mate.
i see that whenever an indian rocket or a missile test fails..a lot of people in pakistan blame the indian developers as incompetent...if we would have bought ready-made missiles from russia...as you people claim...there'd be non to very few failures...
you fail to see that whenevr a GSLV or a Agni fail in their test run...there is always a second test where they score.
there is a lot of propaganda flying around everywhere...but the news of the failures show that the missiles we say are ours are actually being worked on in india...i havnt heard much of pakistani missiles failing...that is the only reason i doubt the pakistani missile development program...
we can argue on this one.

 

[paritosh]

Like the poster above me, the earliest jet technology that the U.S. and Soviet Union churned out were almost replicas of early German fighter technology. (I.E. Operation Lusty)

Isn't it the smart thing to do?

Just consider that question for a moment.

Doesn't make sense? Consider this example.

If I can pay 5 dollars to someone to give me the blueprints for his company's best product, why would I spend 100 dollars and double the time to try and start from scratch?

mate...it's not about how you get the blue-print...it's about how you use it!
you can either manufacture the same 'best product-of-some-company' or put some of your ideas and get the original company to think "wish we had thought of that too!"

 

[Fennecus]

mate...it's not about how you get the blue-print...it's about how you use it!
you can either manufacture the same 'best product-of-some-company' or put some of your ideas and get the original company to think "wish we had thought of that too!"

Well considerng China only had 30 or so odd years to truly develop, a lot of these sectors are simply playing catch-up and developing through trial and error.

Once you have solid background and experience, that's when innovation tends to occur.

 

[Moscow]

Well considerng China only had 30 or so odd years to truly develop, a lot of these sectors are simply playing catch-up and developing through trial and error.

Once you have solid background and experience, that's when innovation tends to occur.

you are exactly right my friend. thanks

 

[zavis2003]

Important thing
America made the aircraft ist . Russia later now point is that russia copied America s craft as both crafts have two wings
America introduce double tail Russsia then also did same
It means russia stealed the design from AMerica.
All of us use the Newtons laws of motions it means we stealling
i since electronics Engineer i ll give u the examplees of my field most
marconi made Radio Russia and whole world did same , it means whole world stealled Marconi radio Design
we communicate over Broad spectrum it means all of us stelled the MAXWELL CONCEPT
Dear ist an EGyptian made a laser then whole world made it

I Simply summarized it "as KNowlegde has no boundaries". every years so many papers published all around world and all world use that knowledge
What AMerica has ALL today is not indeginous. Only Companies wants to protect there monopoly by copywriting things. In every product there are so many rules are applied discovered and modelled by so many scientists

So there is no stealling of knowledge and u cant blame CHINESE coz they have will.
You are developing PAKFA as impressed from F22 is it not stealling of Ideas

 

[Moscow]

Important thing
America made the aircraft ist . Russia later now point is that russia copied America s craft as both crafts have two wings
America introduce double tail Russsia then also did same
It means russia stealed the design from AMerica.
All of us use the Newtons laws of motions it means we stealling
i since electronics Engineer i ll give u the examplees of my field most
marconi made Radio Russia and whole world did same , it means whole world stealled Marconi radio Design
we communicate over Broad spectrum it means all of us stelled the MAXWELL CONCEPT
Dear ist an EGyptian made a laser then whole world made it

I Simply summarized it "as KNowlegde has no boundaries". every years so many papers published all around world and all world use that knowledge
What AMerica has ALL today is not indeginous. Only Companies wants to protect there monopoly by copywriting things. In every product there are so many rules are applied discovered and modelled by so many scientists

So there is no stealling of knowledge and u cant blame CHINESE coz they have will.
You are developing PAKFA as impressed from F22 is it not stealling of Ideas

yes sir you are right but ust consider this small example

All of us use NEWTON'S laws of motion its still called newtons law of motion and not MOSCOW'S law of motion or ZAVI'S law of motion is it?


are you serious about pakfa the progran started in the late 80 and early 90 together with the f-22 program but was stalled due to lack of funds so we are not developing pakfa from the f-22 you see sir.

thanx

 

[shchinese]

simple "simple copy paste"?

Let's just look at the J-11B which is a Chinese clone of the Su-27, you can just ask yourself which one is better, the best Su-27 or J-11B. Here I am not saying J-11B is wonderful, not, that is just 15 years old design, but when you have outcomes like the J-11B, the "simple copy paste" is simply not true.