The latest news is that China's 7nm chips are manufactured using synchrotron radiation, which has 40 times the capacity of EUV lithography.

[GreatHanWarrior]

Repeating the same thing multiple times does not change facts. Either your English is very poor or you have no idea what you are talking about or both. I will wait for @MH.Yang to reply to see if there is any credible information from Chinese sources.

It's just that you don't admit the facts. It does not mean that repeating facts is wrong.

Perhaps the fact is not the result you want.

 

[TriptiD]

It's just that you don't admit the facts. It does not mean that repeating facts is wrong.

Perhaps the fact is not the result you want.

lol, ok.

I actually found a plausible explanation. It seems these chips might be made using older DUV machines but a much lower yield than standard ( which is the reason i was asking about costs). So, these chips are manufactured using older foreign tech that has not been sanctioned at significantly higher costs than companies with access to the latest ASML EUV machines would make. Basically Huawei and the Chinese government are willing to sell these phones at a lose to prove that China is unaffected by sanctions.

Huawei's new chip breakthrough likely to trigger closer US scrutiny, analysts say

The company's breakthrough in making an advanced chip underscores China's determination and capacity for fighting back against U.S. sanctions, but the efforts are likely very costly.

www.reuters.com

 

[GreatHanWarrior]

lol, ok.

I actually found a plausible explanation. It seems these chips might be made using older DUV machines but a much lower yield than standard ( which is the reason i was asking about costs). So, these chips are manufactured using older foreign tech that has not been sanctioned at significantly higher costs than companies with access to the latest ASML EUV machines would make. Basically Huawei and the Chinese government are willing to sell these phones at a lose to prove that China is unaffected by sanctions.

Huawei's new chip breakthrough likely to trigger closer US scrutiny, analysts say

The company's breakthrough in making an advanced chip underscores China's determination and capacity for fighting back against U.S. sanctions, but the efforts are likely very costly.

www.reuters.com

Don't worry. Huawei will continue to launch new phones. You can continue to disassemble its chips. Try to 'edit' its source.

Just like I said. Facing Huawei chips. The only thing the West can do is edit news.

lol, ok.

I actually found a plausible explanation. It seems these chips might be made using older DUV machines but a much lower yield than standard ( which is the reason i was asking about costs). So, these chips are manufactured using older foreign tech that has not been sanctioned at significantly higher costs than companies with access to the latest ASML EUV machines would make. Basically Huawei and the Chinese government are willing to sell these phones at a lose to prove that China is unaffected by sanctions.

Huawei's new chip breakthrough likely to trigger closer US scrutiny, analysts say

The company's breakthrough in making an advanced chip underscores China's determination and capacity for fighting back against U.S. sanctions, but the efforts are likely very costly.

www.reuters.com

BTW, can you tell me which old Western technologies can make 7nm chips?

 

[TriptiD]

Don't worry. Huawei will continue to launch new phones. You can continue to disassemble its chips. Try to 'edit' its source.

Just like I said. Facing Huawei chips. The only thing the West can do is edit news.

Actually, this comment is by a Chinese, who knows much more about the industry than either of us, and not a westerner:

Whoever is making the chip, Tilly Zhang, an analyst at Gavekal Dragonomics, downplayed the success, citing a low yield rate which reduces the number of useable chips from each wafer and raises costs, and new export controls imposed by the Netherlands that will limit SMIC's access to more immersion DUV machine.
"They have just demonstrated that they are willing to accept much higher costs than are normally considered worthwhile ... It is only the combination of Huawei’s own large financial resources and generous government subsidies that could allow it to sell phones using these chips at normal market prices," Zhang said.

 

[GreatHanWarrior]

Actually, this comment is by a Chinese, who knows much more about the industry than either of us, and not a westerner:

Whoever is making the chip, Tilly Zhang, an analyst at Gavekal Dragonomics, downplayed the success, citing a low yield rate which reduces the number of useable chips from each wafer and raises costs, and new export controls imposed by the Netherlands that will limit SMIC's access to more immersion DUV machine.
"They have just demonstrated that they are willing to accept much higher costs than are normally considered worthwhile ... It is only the combination of Huawei’s own large financial resources and generous government subsidies that could allow it to sell phones using these chips at normal market prices," Zhang said.

I just want to remind you one thing. All EUVs provided by ASML to China cannot produce 7nm chips.

If China uses ASML EUV to produce 7nm chips. Americans will immediately remotely shut down all China's ASML EUVs.

So. Stop blackmail. Okay?

Not all Chinese people will tell you these common sense.

 

[TriptiD]

I just want to remind you one thing. All EUVs provided by ASML to China cannot produce 7nm chips.

If China uses ASML EUV to produce 7nm chips. Americans will immediately remotely shut down all China's ASML EUVs.

So. Stop blackmail. Okay?

Not all Chinese people will tell you these common sense.

Your English is very poor but please read the Reuters article. It says China is using older DUV, not EUV, machines to produce 7 nm chips, but at a yield of 50%, instead of the 90% that EUV machines yield. This is completely uneconomical but Huawei + Chinese govt subsidies are financing this loss.

So, yes, China can produce these chips, but only by using older machines and at at uneconomic cost. To quote my earlier example, yes you can also manufacture gold in a particle accelerator, but the cost is several times the price of gold.

 

[GreatHanWarrior]

Your English is very poor but please read the Reuters article. It says China is using older DUV, not EUV, machines to produce 7 nm chips, but at a yield of 50%, instead of the 90% that EUV machines yield. This is completely uneconomical but Huawei + Chinese govt subsidies are financing this loss.

So, yes, China can produce these chips, but only by using older machines and at at uneconomic cost. To quote my earlier example, yes you can also manufacture gold in a particle accelerator, but the cost is several times the price of gold.

emmm.... But most semiconductor equipment is made in China.

You said that China can manufacture 7nm chips using old Western equipment. Just bear high costs?

Are you lowering 7nm technology level?

 

[GreatHanWarrior]

Your English is very poor but please read the Reuters article. It says China is using older DUV, not EUV, machines to produce 7 nm chips, but at a yield of 50%, instead of the 90% that EUV machines yield. This is completely uneconomical but Huawei + Chinese govt subsidies are financing this loss.

So, yes, China can produce these chips, but only by using older machines and at at uneconomic cost. To quote my earlier example, yes you can also manufacture gold in a particle accelerator, but the cost is several times the price of gold.

After a strong rally from multiyear lows in early October, shares of leading chip equipment maker ASML (ASML 0.79%) are falling once again. While tech stocks have been selling off in general in the final days of 2022, ASML shareholders have extra reason for worry: Chinese tech giant Huawei just filed for a patent on the same type of advanced chipmaking equipment ASML has a monopoly on.

ASML Stock Falls on News of a Huawei Patent Application. Time to Sell? | The Motley Fool

Before panic selling, consider some important items that make ASML such a resilient business.

www.fool.com

........................

real. I hope the West continues to impose sanctions.

Your English is very poor but please read the Reuters article. It says China is using older DUV, not EUV, machines to produce 7 nm chips, but at a yield of 50%, instead of the 90% that EUV machines yield. This is completely uneconomical but Huawei + Chinese govt subsidies are financing this loss.

So, yes, China can produce these chips, but only by using older machines and at at uneconomic cost. To quote my earlier example, yes you can also manufacture gold in a particle accelerator, but the cost is several times the price of gold.

Huawei is now able to create chips using a method called extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV), The Telegraph has reported. The Chinese company, which has been sanctioned by Western countries, filed patents in November showing that it has learned how to use the EUV method. To date, only one other company, ASML, has learned how to use the process. The likes of Intel, Samsung, and TSMC use the machines ASML develops.

Huawei unlocks EUV chip manufacturing process according to patent filings

Huawei has cracked the EUV chip process according to patent filings made by the company in November. Huawei Chairman Eric Xu also declared that the company is now out of crisis mode.

www.google.co.jp

 

[TriptiD]

emmm.... But most semiconductor equipment is made in China.

You said that China can manufacture 7nm chips using old Western equipment. Just bear high costs?

Are you lowering 7nm technology level?

"Just" high costs ? Cost is all that matters for production at scale. IBM Research has produced a 2nm chip. That doesn't mean they can put it into gadgets because no cost effective process to manufacture them at scale exists today.

 

[GreatHanWarrior]

Your English is very poor but please read the Reuters article. It says China is using older DUV, not EUV, machines to produce 7 nm chips, but at a yield of 50%, instead of the 90% that EUV machines yield. This is completely uneconomical but Huawei + Chinese govt subsidies are financing this loss.

So, yes, China can produce these chips, but only by using older machines and at at uneconomic cost. To quote my earlier example, yes you can also manufacture gold in a particle accelerator, but the cost is several times the price of gold.

Currently, ASML, a Dutch firm is the leading EUV lithography supplier, but they are not allowed to sell machines to China. Now, with Huawei's patent, it could help China's SMIC eventually compete with TSMC and Samsung Foundry. Currently, SMIC is said to have the ability to produce 7nm chips for cryptocurrency mining but is limited to a 14nm process node for smartphone chips.

Huawei's Patent Licensing a Success, Along with EUV That Could Compete With Samsung

Huawei shows power despite issues with the US.

www.google.co.jp

……………………………………………

I don't even know what you're being stubborn about? Lol. SMIC only produces 14nm chips. Huawei can help SMIC produce 7nm chips.

 

[StraightEdge]

I saw this, no idea how much reliable information.

Also,

Microbunching illuminates new technological horizon-Tsinghua University

A scheme that causes electrons to form microbunches’ could yield high power and coherent extreme-ultraviolet light, and perhaps the means to produce circuits faster.Chuanxiang Tang is a Professor in Department of Engineering Physics at Tsinghua University. He is also deputy president of Chinese...

www.tsinghua.edu.cn

 

[Menthol]

I saw this, no idea how much reliable information.

Also,

Microbunching illuminates new technological horizon-Tsinghua University

A scheme that causes electrons to form microbunches’ could yield high power and coherent extreme-ultraviolet light, and perhaps the means to produce circuits faster.Chuanxiang Tang is a Professor in Department of Engineering Physics at Tsinghua University. He is also deputy president of Chinese...

www.tsinghua.edu.cn

I still don't know whatever Huawei 7nm chip is made using this technique or DUV.

But the news you posted is an idea to fabricate 1nm in the future, even below 1nm.

 

[MH.Yang]

Thanks for the link. I hope you read this part:

"It has a long way to go before it can make its own EUV systems but they are receiving plenty of capital and support from the government to get there."

No one doubts China is making progress on EUV but so far, until it becomes clear how the SMIC chips were produced, there is no evidence it has succeeded in doing so on an industrial scale.

You don't seem to be aware that SMIC is under the same sanctions as Huawei. SMIC breaking 7nm represents the same thing as Huawei breaking 7nm.

 

[OIO]

I saw this, no idea how much reliable information.

Also,

Microbunching illuminates new technological horizon-Tsinghua University

A scheme that causes electrons to form microbunches’ could yield high power and coherent extreme-ultraviolet light, and perhaps the means to produce circuits faster.Chuanxiang Tang is a Professor in Department of Engineering Physics at Tsinghua University. He is also deputy president of Chinese...

www.tsinghua.edu.cn

EUV lithography machines made in China do not need to be portable, and the technical requirements for lenses and photoresists will be reduced.

 

[MH.Yang]

I still don't know whatever Huawei 7nm chip is made using this technique or DUV.

But the news you posted is an idea to fabricate 1nm in the future, even below 1nm.

Let me explain it this way. There are various sizes of light segments in a beam of light, 12nm, 7nm, 5nm and so on.

ASML's machines need to be transported to Asia, so they are small. ASML's machines are also relatively small in power due to the lack of extra high voltage power grids in countries other than China.

So ASML's machine is limited to intercepting only one size of light segment at a certain frequency segment. For example, a 7nm machine can only intercept a 7nm segment.

China's SSMB-EUV programme takes advantage of China's extra-high voltage grid to provide super-high input power, and it's essentially a lithography machine larger than an aircraft carrier.SSMB-EUV extends the distance of the intercepted light segments dramatically, and depending on the frequency, different sized segments are concentrated at different nodes. Then we can get different sizes of light segments at different nodes to make different sizes of chips. For example, make 24mm at point A, 12nm at point B and so on. This solution can drastically reduce the cost, improve the yield and increase the manufacturing speed.