The Jamaat-e-Islami in India

[magra]

those who did not go to pakistan should remember hindus are liberal tolerant and secular people because we gave respect and equal opportunity to them , they are getting everything which a common hindustani is getting , why they have problem with CAA which gives relief to hindus of bangladesh and pakistan ? after all india is the country which jinnah sahab left for hindus ? hindustan should be first priority of all indians .

CAA in isolation is not a problem (although this is the first law which introduces the word 'non-Muslim' in secular Indian constitutionn). CAA along with NRC is a potential issue as an Indian Muslim may be declared non-Indian due to lack of papers. An Indian Hindu in such a predicament can again be considered Indian through CAA.
Jinnah took what he could. He left Hindus and the vast number of muslims in India to their fate. He knew he could not absorb all South Asian Muslims in Pakistan.

 

[ayodhyapati]

CAA in isolation is not a problem (although this is the first law which introduces the word 'non-Muslim' in secular Indian constitutionn). CAA along with NRC is a potential issue as an Indian Muslim may be declared non-Indian due to lack of papers. An Indian Hindu in such a predicament can again be considered Indian through CAA.
Jinnah took what he could. He left Hindus and the vast number of muslims in India to their fate. He knew he could not absorb all South Asian Muslims in Pakistan.

CAA is just for non muslims living in muslim country specially for hindus , there is no nrc right now . we can give asylum to any muslim if he is persecuted in his country , but we can not give citizenship to illegal immigrants in the name of secularism. hindus can not get equal right in muslim states so they have every right to get citizenship of hindu country .

 

[magra]

CAA is just for non muslims living in muslim country specially for hindus , there is no nrc right now . we can give asylum to any muslim if he is persecuted in his country , but we can not give citizenship to illegal immigrants in the name of secularism. hindus can not get equal right in muslim states so they have every right to get citizenship of hindu country .

We cannot claim India to be secular as well as Hindu country. Ofcourse we should give asylum to reasonable number of persecuted people of neighboring countries if we can.
I believe Hindus in BD today are fairly secure. There are certain issues but they are of the same level as Muslims face in India, not more. And in any case, we cannot accomodate all BD Hindus in India (they are 1.6 crores), so it is better to work with BD to ensure they do not face issues in BD itself.
There is a demand in certain corners of ruling dispensation to launch NRC outside North east as well.

 

[ayodhyapati]

We cannot claim India to be secular as well as Hindu country. Ofcourse we should give asylum to reasonable number of persecuted people of neighboring countries if we can.
I believe Hindus in BD today are fairly secure. There are certain issues but they are of the same level as Muslims face in India, not more. And in any case, we cannot accomodate all BD Hindus in India (they are 1.6 crores), so it is better to work with BD to ensure they do not face issues in BD itself.
There is a demand in certain corners of ruling dispensation to launch NRC outside North east as well.

india is a hindu land because muslim got their land in 1947 , since we are by nature very tolerant and secular people so we adopted secular constitution . we have seen one partition so we can not risk another by giving citizenship to non hindus in india.
bangladesh is comparatively better in treatment of hindus , but hindus should be given citizenship if they want to come to india .

 

[magra]

india is a hindu land because muslim got their land in 1947

Your statement goes against the principles laid out by the founding fathers of independent India.
Indian leaders never conceded that Muslim league was the sole representative of all South Asian Muslims. It was Muslim League that got their land in 1947, not Muslims. There were Muslim leaders in Congress (eg. Maulana Abul Kalam Azad) and allies (eg. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan) who were against partition. Would you have told them to go to Pakistan?
India was always meant to be the land for all.

, since we are by nature very tolerant and secular people so we adopted secular constitution .

Partition uprooted lives of tens of millions and killed a million people. If we tried to throw away all the muslims, it would have uprooted and killed many more Muslims as well as Hindus (sizable Hindus in East Pak). If we had tried to implement Hindu constitution, we would never have progressed like we have, but would have been a carbon copy of Pakistan. So it was in our own interest to have secular constitution, we are doing a favor to anyone by doing so.

we have seen one partition so we can not risk another by giving citizenship to non hindus in india.
bangladesh is comparatively better in treatment of hindus , but hindus should be given citizenship if they want to come to india .

We are never going to admit people in unreasonably large numbers that will change India's demography. So stop fearing a mass influx of muslims. Only those people who have genuine persecution issues and cannot go back to their home country should be considered for citizenship. If anyone wants to migrate for economic reasons, then they should not be given citizenship.

 

[Andhadhun]

We cannot claim India to be secular as well as Hindu country. Ofcourse we should give asylum to reasonable number of persecuted people of neighboring countries if we can.
I believe Hindus in BD today are fairly secure. There are certain issues but they are of the same level as Muslims face in India, not more. And in any case, we cannot accomodate all BD Hindus in India (they are 1.6 crores), so it is better to work with BD to ensure they do not face issues in BD itself.
There is a demand in certain corners of ruling dispensation to launch NRC outside North east as well.

India IS a Hindu country, we only CLAIM India is a "secular" country.

Dr. Ambedkar settled this issue once and for all in the assembly debate.

You are free to "believe" the earth is flat as well as Hindus in BD are safe. No one has asked you to certify either. Only you seem "Extra" eager to certify as part of your desperate Virtue signalling as a "secularist".

Also we have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to the Hindus of BD to guarantee them a safe land that will NOT persecute them for their faith. And NO "minority", least of all the muslims of India has the right to VETO that DUTY.

Finally there is a need to implement NRC all over India to Identify Citizens and Non Citizens and strip illegal aliens of VOTING RIGHTS. This should not even be a debate.

 

[magra]

Finally there is a need to implement NRC all over India to Identify Citizens and Non Citizens and strip illegal aliens of VOTING RIGHTS. This should not even be a debate.

India is a democracy. Everything is up for debate in a democracy. You can implement stuff without consultation only in a dictatorship.
NRC exercise in Assam showed how disruptive and ineffective it is. We do not want such a thing to be repeated in the rest of India. Lets for a second assume that we find millions of non-Indians staying illegally in India. Then what. Can we prove that they are citizens of another country? If not, what will we do with them?
Are we going to kill them?
Are we going to jail them thus making them unproductive and feeding them at tax payers expense?
Tagging millions of people as stateless within India will only hurt our country.

Also we have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to the Hindus of BD to guarantee them a safe land that will NOT persecute them for their faith. And NO "minority", least of all the muslims of India has the right to VETO that DUTY.

We have a moral responsibility as humans to help other humans in need if we can. I am not hearing cases of mass discrimination of Hindus in BD. There are always individual cases in each country, which can be looked at case by case basis. No objection to giving citizenship in genuine cases of persecution.
All Indians have a right to say in this matter through democratic means via elected leaders in parliament.

India IS a Hindu country, we only CLAIM India is a "secular" country.
Dr. Ambedkar settled this issue once and for all in the assembly debate.

What are you exactly 'claiming'? As per you, India is a secular country or not?
Can you give me evidence of Dr. Ambedkar saying in any debate that India is not a secular country?
In any case, the constitution of India is above any individual leader.

You are free to "believe" the earth is flat as well as Hindus in BD are safe. No one has asked you to certify either. Only you seem "Extra" eager to certify as part of your desperate Virtue signalling as a "secularist".

You are free to believe what you want to believe. I am just saying what our constitution says. Are you saying you are above our constitution?

 

[Andhadhun]

India is a democracy. Everything is up for debate in a democracy. You can implement stuff without consultation only in a dictatorship.
NRC exercise in Assam showed how disruptive and ineffective it is. We do not want such a thing to be repeated in the rest of India. Lets for a second assume that we find millions of non-Indians staying illegally in India. Then what. Can we prove that they are citizens of another country? If not, what will we do with them?
Are we going to kill them?
Are we going to jail them thus making them unproductive and feeding them at tax payers expense?
Tagging millions of people as stateless within India will only hurt our country.

NO MUSLIM can be allowed to BLACKMAIL Indians by denying the Natural process of identifying Indian citizens and Non-Citizens in India. PERIOD.

I have already said STRIP THEM OF VOTING RIGHTS. Only a "secular pervert" like you will demonstrate DELIBERATE BLINDNESS and claim "murder", "tagging" and "jailing". It AMPLY shows us your malicious nature and fraudulent behavior.

We have a moral responsibility as humans to help other humans in need if we can. I am not hearing cases of mass discrimination of Hindus in BD. There are always individual cases in each country, which can be looked at case by case basis. No objection to giving citizenship in genuine cases of persecution.
All Indians have a right to say in this matter through democratic means via elected leaders in parliament.

Our Moral responsibility to Hindu's of Post partitioned BD and pakistan is FAR MORE. Then comes our moral responsibility to persecuted Hindus anywhere in the world. THEN comes our responsibility to others. Let there be NO Doubt or deliberate Confusion regarding this.

Rights of other Indians was never in dispute. But their "rights" do not dictate MORALITY.

What are you exactly 'claiming'? As per you, India is a secular country or not?
Can you give me evidence of Dr. Ambedkar saying in any debate that India is not a secular country?
In any case, the constitution of India is above any individual leader.

WE are NOT a secular country. We have distinct Laws for muslims and xtians defined in the constitution. Same for Hindus. This Directly contradicts the tenets of Secularism that demand we treat all religions as EQUALS e.g. United States.


You can use google to dig up assembly debates on this very issue.

You are free to believe what you want to believe. I am just saying what our constitution says. Are you saying you are above our constitution?

You are the joker now claiming our constitution says that hindus are safe in BD.

 

[fallstuff]

India IS a Hindu country, we only CLAIM India is a "secular" country.

Dr. Ambedkar settled this issue once and for all in the assembly debate.

Also we have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to the Hindus of BD to guarantee them a safe land that will NOT persecute them for their faith. And NO "minority", least of all the muslims of India has the right to VETO that DUTY.

You have a duty to feed the hungry and provide shelter for the homeless in India.
I doubt any Bangladeshi Hindu would want go to settle in the S*** H***.

 

[magra]

NO MUSLIM can be allowed to BLACKMAIL Indians by denying the Natural process of identifying Indian citizens and Non-Citizens in India. PERIOD.

I categorically said all Indians can voice their opinions through their elected leaders. Also the court can veto any laws if they are against constitution. Also the independent media is allowed to voice its opinion and criticize govt if needed. When did I say that any community is allowed to blackmail the govt through undemocratic means?

I have already said STRIP THEM OF VOTING RIGHTS. Only a "secular pervert" like you will demonstrate DELIBERATE BLINDNESS and claim "murder", "tagging" and "jailing". It AMPLY shows us your malicious nature and fraudulent behavior.

You would start with stripping voting rights, but it would end with much more. You cant stop an avalanche after starting it. Moreover, there is no real demand from the rest of India for any NRC. Only few leaders from ruling party are making noise for electoral gains through polarization.
I would request you to keep your debate civil. There is no need to go down to name calling for proving your point.

Our Moral responsibility to Hindu's of Post partitioned BD and pakistan is FAR MORE. Then comes our moral responsibility to persecuted Hindus anywhere in the world. THEN comes our responsibility to others. Let there be NO Doubt or deliberate Confusion regarding this.

Rights of other Indians was never in dispute. But their "rights" do not dictate MORALITY.

We are not talking about people in non-neighboring countries. I agree that we have some moral responsibility and we can give citizenship to persecuted people on case-by-case basis. But that should be the last option as we cannot allow large number of people. We should first do all we can to work with our neighboring countries so that they are not persecuted at home. Pakistani and BD Hindus would ideally not want to leave their homes and settle in a new location.

WE are NOT a secular country. We have distinct Laws for muslims and xtians defined in the constitution. Same for Hindus. This Directly contradicts the tenets of Secularism that demand we treat all religions as EQUALS e.g. United States.

You are right that secularism in our country is still imperfect. Lets make it better by implementing uniform civil code rather than reject secularism.

You can use google to dig up assembly debates on this very issue.

You made a statement so I would expect you to back up with proof.

You are the joker now claiming our constitution says that hindus are safe in BD.

When did I say that Indian constitution keeps BD citizens safe? You are incorrectly attributing stuff to me.

 

[xeuss]

Honest advice - JeIH needs a complete overhaul. It should approach the dilemma of the Indian Muslim in the same way that diaspora Jewish groups have in the west. Organise yourselves along the assumption that all around you are enemies until proven otherwise. You folks are far too naive and trusting of Hindu extremist philosophy. This isn't some negotiation or dawah mission. This is survival amidst an openly hostile population. Take a leaf out of the Jewish ADL, Black Panthers, and other organisations. Accept you're on the back foot. Set up gyms, educational facilities designed to spread counter-propaganda and so on and so forth. Fight vigorously for civil rights. Take the filth on head on as an adversary in courts of law and political fora. Push back against a hostile enemy, rather than trying to "explain" yourselves to those who will never accept your explanation or appeasement. Openly declare them as enemies of you, your people, and the legacy of India's rich Islamic heritage. Gloves off.

Indeed. I have often looked at these same organizations (sans Black Panthers) and wish they could be emulated in India. But then again, politics in India is not like in the Western world and the reactions and actions of larger society are not the same as well.

The hate within India society is too much for even a ADL style organization to make any dents. If ADL existed in India, it's members would have been, in worst case, attacked and killed, and in the best case, locked up for being anti-nationals. It really is up to the Hindu society to abandon it's path towards fascism and correct itself. I don't think anything Muslims can do, will make a difference.

 

[Andhadhun]

You have a duty to feed the hungry and provide shelter for the homeless in India.
I doubt any Bangladeshi Hindu would want go to settle in the S*** H***.

Indians very well know our Duty. No BD muslim is invited or required in our internal discussion. Focus on fulfilling u'r responsibility to your Hindu minority.

 

[xeuss]

Indians very well know our Duty. No BD muslim is invited or required in our internal discussion. Focus on fulfilling u'r responsibility to your Hindu minority.

Actually Bangladeshi Muslims and Pakistani Muslims are very much invited by me. In fact, Bangladeshi Muslims are free to settle in any parts of Assam and Bengal. Go pound sand.

 

[magra]

Actually Bangladeshi Muslims and Pakistani Muslims are very much invited by me. In fact, Bangladeshi Muslims are free to settle in any parts of Assam and Bengal. Go pound sand.

Are you just trying to needle him or are you serious?

 

[xeuss]

Are you just trying to needle him or are you serious?

You can't really hold a discussion with a fascist can you?