The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[帅的一匹]

After watching the documentary from CCTV-4, I just realize that the past designation was wrong. So far, it seems the WS-10B is only designated to power the J-20. So those WS-10 that used to power the J-10 were definitely not the 4th gen B, maybe the WS-10A1 or WS-10A2.

Now it is very clear for the official designation:

WS-10 -> 3rd gen
WS-10B -> 4th gen
WS-15 -> 5th gen

Just like the CV-17, when its official code name is the Type 002, then we don't call it the Type 001A anymore.

I agree with you that WS10b is only developed for J20.

 

[lmjiao]

After watching the documentary from CCTV-4, I just realize that the past designation was wrong. So far, it seems the WS-10B is only designated to power the J-20. So those WS-10 that used to power the J-10 were definitely not the 4th gen B, maybe the WS-10A1 or WS-10A2.

Now it is very clear for the official designation:

WS-10 -> 3rd gen
WS-10B -> 4th gen
WS-15 -> 5th gen

Just like the CV-17, when its official code name is the Type 002, then we don't call it the Type 001A anymore.

This clearly explains everything.

In Chinese official documents, the "X-th gen" saying is really important.

Any explainating why WS-10B is a 4th gen? Because of FADEC?

 

[siegecrossbow]

The latest image (September 2017) indicated that since early 2017 a J-20A prototype has been fitted with two indigenous WS-10X turbofan engines featuring stealth nozzles with saw tooth edges, suggesting the Chinese engine technology has become mature enough to finally have the Russian engines replaced.

View attachment 422911

Congratulations

Finally with jagged nozzles!

 

[siegecrossbow]

I fail to see anything worth celebrating. And "getting better" doesn't win wars -- only being the best wins wars. There's no "most improved" prize in war.

Why isn't the WS-15 ready? Gobs of money have been spent and legions of engineers have been trained and put to work. So where's the f*cking engine?!

It's better than getting bottle-necked by using Russian engines.

 

[Galactic Penguin SST]

China successfully purifies rare metal rhenium used to make aircraft engines

September 04, 2017

A Chinese private enterprise has successfully purified the rare metal rhenium to manufacture the single crystal blade, which is crucial for the production of aircraft engines, CCTV.com reported on Sept. 3.

The rare metal was purified after a year and a half effort by Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Co. Ltd. in cooperation with the Hunan Research Institute for Nonferrous Metals.

The company discovered a mine with about 176 tons of rhenium in Shaanxi province in 2010, accounting for 7 percent of the world’s total reserves of the metal.

A report released by the U.S. Geological Survey shows that the explored reserve of rhenium in the earth’s crust is only about 2,500 tons, even less than that of rare elements. The price for each gram is 200 to 300 RMB (about $31 to 46), which makes it as expensive as platinum.

The metal is the main material for producing the single crystal blade, which is crucial for manufacturing aircraft engines, and the technology directly affects the performance of the engine.

Zhang Zheng, chairman of the company, put together a professional team through the country’s talent recruitment program.

Verified results show that the single crystal blade met Europe and U.S quality standards in terms of tensile properties and endurance performance at high temperatures.


The success makes the company China’s first to achieve mass production of the single crystal blade for manufacturing aircraft engines.

Aircraft engines, as one of the most complicated mechanical systems, should be able to work under high temperatures, high pressures, high rotation speeds, and high load; and be high power, light weight, long lasting, and highly reliable.

China has been faced with a hurdle of self-developing aircraft engines, because the U.S. and some Western countries have blocked certain exports such as rhenium to China for many years.

Spoiler

http://en.people.cn/NMediaFile/2017/0904/FOREIGN201709041733000423825341507.jpg
http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0904/c90000-9264309.html

▲ 176 tons of rhenium in Shaanxi province in 2010, accounting for 7 percent of the world’s total reserves of the metal.

Spoiler

http://en.people.cn/NMediaFile/2017/0904/FOREIGN201709041733000543667169200.jpg
http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0904/c90000-9264309.html

▲ 176 tons of rhenium in Shaanxi province in 2010, accounting for 7 percent of the world’s total reserves of the metal.

Spoiler

http://en.people.cn/NMediaFile/2017/0904/FOREIGN201709041733000300452816572.jpg
http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0904/c90000-9264309.html

▲ 176 tons of rhenium in Shaanxi province in 2010, accounting for 7 percent of the world’s total reserves of the metal.

Spoiler

http://en.people.cn/NMediaFile/2017/0904/FOREIGN201709041734000031247873473.jpg
http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0904/c90000-9264309.html

▲ 176 tons of rhenium in Shaanxi province in 2010, accounting for 7 percent of the world’s total reserves of the metal.

http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0904/c90000-9264309.html

 

[kuge]

Indeed, and exactly like I showed yesterday and always said. The WS-10 is so easily to identify; the current (fitted to all J-20s exept the new LRIP-bird) engine was never a Taihang.

Yes and NO. I agree with You that the race is over and I hope that after all these near endless discussions, heated debates - including my bet - and sometimes harsh words @Asoka and especially @Beast are at least so fair and admit that they were wrong.
I do not want to open bottles of champagne to celebrate that I was right but they should at least admit that they were wrong.

All engines so far used on all J-20s tested and operational so far are NO WS-10 and even less a WS-15. It is - like You said from now on - hopefully no longer an AL-31, but that means until now it was an AL-31FN of some sort.

Deino

what to make of off the comments that the two j-20s were flying with "domestic produced engines" on 81-day? Was the commentator wrong about that?

 

[Han Patriot]

what to make of off the comments that the two j-20s were flying with "domestic produced engines" on 81-day? Was the commentator wrong about that?

Normally when they announced it, the jets would have been using domestic engine for some time.

 

[Deino]

what to make of off the comments that the two j-20s were flying with "domestic produced engines" on 81-day? Was the commentator wrong about that?

Yes ... IMO that commentator was in his mind referring to that CCTV report which in fact - even if stated - meant "will use a domestic engine soon".

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

This clearly explains everything.

In Chinese official documents, the "X-th gen" saying is really important.

Any explainating why WS-10B is a 4th gen? Because of FADEC?

The FADEC is an important feature for the 5th gen stealth aircraft, and if the WS-10B is chosen to power the J-20A, then it is indeed because of this.

Russia's production rate can only supply few engines for the J-20A, so the J-20A still needs to depend on the WS-10B which can already meet its production demand.

 

[Deino]

The FADEC is an important feature for the 5th gen stealth aircraft, and if the WS-10B is chosen to power the J-20A, then it is indeed because of this.

Russia's production rate can only supply few engines for the J-20A, so the J-20A still needs to depend on the WS-10B which can already meet its production demand.

Two questions again: Will this WS-10-powered version get a new letter aka J-20B if the current ones are J-20A ??

and by the way, which WS-10-version does the J-16 use ?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Two questions again: Will this WS-10-powered version get a new letter aka J-20B if the current ones are J-20A ??

and by the way, which WS-10-version does the J-16 use ?

Any J-20 without the WS-15 cannot be labelled as the J-20B, and I think those big shrimps have made that clear.

So the J-20A itself has to be distinguished into A1 and A2 according to Yankeesama.

There are many optimized versions for the WS-10, and I think the one used by the J-16 could be the WS-10A2.

Here is an example the two different versions of the WS-10, and you can see the color of the ring on both WS-10 is different.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I agree with you that WS10b is only developed for J20.

Taihang class:
WS-10 subclass -> 3rd gen & 120-140KN
WS-10B subclass -> 4th gen & 140KN~

Emei class:
WS-15 subclass -> 5th gen & 180KN~
WS-15B subclass -> 6th gen???

 

[Figaro]

It's better than getting bottle-necked by using Russian engines.

Exactly, Siege. An engine is the heart of any aircraft. You wouldn't want a temporary or imported heart, now would you? And given constant Russian reliability and QA issues, it's no surprise that CAC wanted to ditch those Russian engines, even if it meant a small trade-off in thrust.

Taihang class:
WS-10 subclass -> 3rd gen & 120-140KN
WS-10B subclass -> 4th gen & 140KN~

Emei class:
WS-15 subclass -> 5th gen & 180KN~
WS-15B subclass -> 6th gen???

Let's not get over the top with WS-15B yet ... I really want to see more info of the WS-15 though

 

[星海军事]

Make sure we are clear with the unit before we discuss.

WS-10/WS-10A -- 12,500 kgf
WS-10H -- 12,800 kgf
WS-10B -- 13,200 kgf
WS-10IPE -- 14,000 kgf

“FWSX发动机是我国第一台具有自主知识产权的推重比8一级军用发动机……FWSXH发动机就是在FWSX发动机这个高起点的基础上进行研制……起飞推力由12500千克力提高到12800千克力，满足歼-XX飞机舰上全状态起飞性能要求”

——马会宁. "舰载机附件“三防”及起飞增推设计研究." 中国航空学会动力年会 2010.​

However, as it is known to all, the 12,800 kgf WS-10H project was eventually abandoned and never entered mass production.

“晚上10时多，动力所总设计师刘永泉满脸兴奋地向大家报告：某型发动机试验成功，“十二五”研制目标顺利实现！……十年磨一剑，发动机在经历了无数次地面、空中考核试验试飞，史上最苛刻的考核长试、创新试验项目后，验证了能力，得到了试飞员的高度认可。”

——李晶雪. "铸国防空疆之重器——记中航工业发动机研究院、动力所总设计师刘永泉." 中国航空报 2016.​

WS-10B is the first improved version to meet the target performances set in the late 1980s. It took nearly 10 years for WS-10B to reach its design finalization.

“某型涡扇航空发动机已定型，完成了大量的地面及飞行试验，在其基础上，改进发展了某性能增强型涡扇发动机*……使地面台架最大推力增大12%……目前某性能增强型涡扇发动机已完成预先研究，为工程验证机研制阶段。”

——边家亮等. "某性能增强型涡扇发动机稳态性能调试方法研究." 中国科协年会 2013.​

*性能增强型涡扇发动机（Improved Performance Engine，IPE）

WS-10B was still under rigid testing in 2014. Thus, the finalized engine mentioned is WS-10, with a thrust of 12,500 kgf.

12,500 × 112% = 14,000

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The third gen WS-10A is 13200 kg with a TWR of 7.5.