The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[ChineseTiger1986]

no, anyone can come-up with a seemly detailed "development timeline"``````there are two VERY important engines still under development, one has started air test some time in 2016``````````

Now we can hope that the WS-15 is going smoothly and can conduct its maiden flight around 2020.

The US will very likely start the development of the 6th gen aircraft in the 2020s, and the earlier engine for their 6th gen aircraft will likely be the improved version of the F119.

So by 2030, both China and USA will test their 6th gen aircraft, the improved WS-15 for China's earlier 6th gen, and the improved F119 for USA's earlier 6th gen.

Check here is the brief concept of the US 6th gen aircraft. Although it is just a concept, but I do believe the US has started to plan their 6th gen project.

That's why the role of the WS-15 will extremely crucial, it will serve as the backbone for the later J-20 and play the transitional role for China's earlier 6th gen aircraft.

That's why the F119 won't be retired soon, it will also sustain the earlier model for the US 6th gen aircraft.

 

[F-22Raptor]

Now we can hope that the WS-15 is going smoothly and can conduct its maiden flight around 2020.

The US will very likely start the development of the 6th gen aircraft in the 2020s, and the earlier engine for their 6th gen aircraft will likely be the improved version of the F119.

So by 2030, both China and USA will test their 6th gen aircraft, the improved WS-15 for China's earlier 6th gen, and the improved F119 for USA's earlier 6th gen.

Check here is the brief concept of the US 6th gen aircraft. Although it is just a concept, but I do believe the US has started to plan their 6th gen project.

That's why the role of the WS-15 will extremely crucial, it will serve as the backbone for the later J-20 and play the transitional role for China's earlier 6th gen aircraft.

That's why the F119 won't be retired soon, it will also sustain the earlier model for the US 6th gen aircraft.

This is the US next generation engine. This engine will feature the first 3 stream adaptive turbofan engine in aviation history. This engine will achieve up to a 20% higher max thrust, 30% improvement in range, 25% better fuel consumption. It took 10 years of R&D to develop this engine.

As far as a 6th gen fighter, development of the relevant technologies is being funded now.

 

[Deino]

Sawtooth Nozzle of WS10 engine variant on J20, no more dispute
...

Indeed, and exactly like I showed yesterday and always said. The WS-10 is so easily to identify; the current (fitted to all J-20s exept the new LRIP-bird) engine was never a Taihang.

No Al31 from now on , and no WS15 yet.

@Deino this thread could be closed

The development path of J20 engine is very clear: al31----WS10b----WS15

...

Yes and NO. I agree with You that the race is over and I hope that after all these near endless discussions, heated debates - including my bet - and sometimes harsh words @Asoka and especially @Beast are at least so fair and admit that they were wrong.
I do not want to open bottles of champagne to celebrate that I was right but they should at least admit that they were wrong.

All engines so far used on all J-20s tested and operational so far are NO WS-10 and even less a WS-15. It is - like You said from now on - hopefully no longer an AL-31, but that means until now it was an AL-31FN of some sort.

Deino

 

[Figaro]

Indeed, and exactly like I showed yesterday and always said. The WS-10 is so easily to identify; the current engine was never a Taihang.






Yes and NO. I agree with You that the race is over and I hope that after all these near endless discussions, heated debates - including my bet - and sometimes harsh words @Asoka and especially @Beast are at least so fair and admit that they were wrong.
I do not want to open bottles of champagne to celebrate that I was right but they should at least admit that they were wrong.

All engines so far used on all J-20s tested and operational so far are NO WS-10 and even less a WS-15. It is - like You said from now on - hopefully no longer an AL-31, but that means until now it was an AL-31FN of some sort.

Deino

Didn't we just witness a WS-10X yesterday?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

This is the US next generation engine. This engine will feature the first 3 stream adaptive turbofan engine in aviation history. This engine will achieve up to a 20% higher max thrust, 30% improvement in range, 25% better fuel consumption. It took 10 years of R&D to develop this engine.

As far as a 6th gen fighter, development of the relevant technologies is being funded now.

I meant the transitional engine for the 6th aircraft engine, not the definitive one.

The one in Raytheon's promotional video is the F119.

BTW, this one looks closer to the F135 than to the F119.

Indeed, and exactly like I showed yesterday and always said. The WS-10 is so easily to identify; the current engine was never a Taihang.






Yes and NO. I agree with You that the race is over and I hope that after all these near endless discussions, heated debates - including my bet - and sometimes harsh words @Asoka and especially @Beast are at least so fair and admit that they were wrong.
I do not want to open bottles of champagne to celebrate that I was right but they should at least admit that they were wrong.

All engines so far used on all J-20s tested and operational so far are NO WS-10 and even less a WS-15. It is - like You said from now on - hopefully no longer an AL-31, but that means until now it was an AL-31FN of some sort.

Deino

Not AL-31FN, not the AL-31FM2 as well, since it is still in the testing stage.

Maybe the 135KN AL-31FM1.

I guess the reason they chose the AL-31FM1 over the similar thrust WS-10A2 might be the lower bypass ratio of the AL-31 type of engine which is more suitable for the limited supercruise.

The WS-10B will have higher thrust and longer lifespan compared to the AL-31FM1, and its bypass ratio could also likely be improved.

 

[F-22Raptor]

I meant the transitional engine for the 6th aircraft engine, not the definitive one.

The one in Raytheon's promotional video is the F119.

BTW, this one looks closer to the F135 than to the F119.

These engines are actually advanced enough, that production may begin in 5 years time. That is confirmed here:

Truly game-changing breakthroughs in US fighter engines are nearly in hand. After more than a decade of labor by Air Force Research Laboratory and engine-makers Pratt & Whitney and General Electric Aviation, increases in speed and range, reduced dependency on tankers, and a menu of new tactics are just some of the advantages coming in the next few years.

By 2021, engineers are expected to have built and tested flightworthy engines that could, for example, give new fighters 30 percent more range than they have today, produce enough spare power to fire directed energy weapons, or run cool enough to improve stealth. Besides those advantages, new engines could provide great benefit to the F-35 strike fighter, allowing it to sustain high-speed flight at treetop altitudes, something it can’t do today. The work is advanced enough that, given a green light, a new development program with a short execution time line could be launched and start producing new power plants by the early 2020s.

More info at the link:
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2017/August 2017/Engines-of-Innovation.aspx

 

[Deino]

Didn't we just witness a WS-10X yesterday?

Oh come on, the Current - means fitted to all J-20s exept the new LRIP-bird - engine on all operational J-20s so far. Do I need to add this part on all my posts.

...
Not AL-31FN, not the AL-31FM2 as well, since it is still in the testing stage.

Maybe the 135kN AL-31FM1.

I guess the reason they chose the AL-31FM1 over the similar thrust WS-10A2 might be the lower bypass ratio of the AL-31 type of engine which is more suitable for the limited supercruise.

The WS-10B will have higher thrust and longer lifespan compared to the AL-31FM1, and its bypass ratio could also likely be improved.

Why don't You think an FN-based design since it would ease commonality?
IMO the 135KN AL-31FM1 is unlikely since its thrust gives not much more than the already available FN Series 3. Also the FM2 was already bench-tested and if financed by China, I'm sure, its development timeline would fit the LRIP-birds.

Deino

 

[lmjiao]

@Deino
Dear Mod，

Now that the debate over J-20 engines is over, I think at least you could consider changing the current title of this thread “The endless J-20-engine saga ... to keep the J-20-thread clean”

Because:
1. It is now ended, not a endless one
2. the word "keep clean" is a little bit offensive to every one included in these discussion, include yourself.

lmjiao

@Deino Thanks for the new title

 

[Deino]

@Deino
Dear Mod，

Now that the debate over J-20 engines is over, I think at least you could consider changing the current title of this thread “The endless J-20-engine saga ... to keep the J-20-thread clean”

Because:
1. It is now ended, not a endless one
2. the word "keep clean" is a little bit offensive to every one included in these discussion, include yourself.

lmjiao

Agreed, even if I'm not sure if this is better?!:

The J-20-engine discussion is over ... to separate from the J-20-news !

Otherwise You are correct and it was indeed a hash discussion.
Anyway I think at least it could be admitted that the race is over, that the engine mystery became a bit more clear.
But still calling others "delusional" with now the facts on the table is IMO plain

OMG! You guys are way more delusional than I can imagine. I am really speechless.

Deino

 

[Asoka]

Agreed, even if I'm not sure if this is better?!:

The J-20-engine discussion is over ... to separate from the J-20-news !

Otherwise You are correct and it was indeed a hash discussion.
Anyway I think at least it could be admitted that the race is over, that the engine mystery became a bit more clear.
But still calling others "delusional" with now the facts on the table is IMO plain



Deino

Folks, our son Amadeus was born this morning at 5:23AM. I won't have time to reply to any of the postings, for the foreseeable future.

I will let Mr. Deino take his "victory" lap for now. I am worry about his mental state. I hope he won't lose his mind over this "engine thing".

 

[Deino]

As said in the dedicated J-20-thread here another question:

The name is irrelevant, the WS-10B and WS-10 belong to two different generations.
The WS-10 got many optimization with the improvement of thrust and lifespan, and the WS-10B will experience the same. So the WS-10B in the near future will have higher thrust and longer lifespan than the current one.

So they the difference between WS-10 and WS-10B is comparable to the step from the early US F100-PW-100 and -200 to the later uprated and improved versions F100-PW-229. But where in this line dooes the WS-10A fit in?

I just noticed after a second read that You use different WS-10-designations sometimes: Could You please correct me or give a brief summary?

- As far as i thought, the first generation Taihang was plain and simple the WS-10. This was first sppotted in that J-11/WS-10-testbed but not used operationally.

- The first serial Taihangs were then WS-10A (with their gear-box on top) and are all used in the Flanker version (J-11B/BS ...).

- For the WS-10B there are contradicting reports: Sometimes it is used as the WS-10A-development for the J-10 with the gear-box now on the bottom as tested in no. 1004, 1035 and a few Batch 01 J-10B, while for others the WS-10B is a different generation.
So how is the J-10B-version called?? WS-10A2 and WS-10A1 is for the Flankers?

- and finally if I'm not mistaken, the WS-10IPE (sometimes called WS-10G) is now again a different even further development?

Thanks again,
Deino

 

[grey boy 2]

Folks, my son Amadeus was born this morning at 5:23AM. I won't have time to reply to any the postings, for the foreseeable future.

I will let Mr. Deino take his "victory" lap for now. I am worry about his mental state. I hope he won't lose his mind over this "engine thing".

Congratulation bro, say HI to Amadeus for me hehe old man LOL

 

[Deino]

Folks, my son Amadeus was born this morning at 5:23AM. I won't have time to reply to any the postings, for the foreseeable future.

I will let Mr. Deino take his "victory" lap for now. I am worry about his mental state. I hope he won't lose his mind over this "engine thing".

Congrats to You, Your son and most of all Your wife!
I wish You and Your family all the best one could wish on earth.

But is it really necessary to give a side-kick by questioning my "mental state" instead of simply admitting being wrong? I remember some members here calling to ban me alone for proposing such a theory, some - esp. @Beast - were already celebrating my "throw-out" after that strange TV-report and strongly demanded my resignment as moderator or member here, ... and now? Nothing. A strange behavior ..

As a sportsman I think it's only fair to say one was right and admit one was wrong and then it's done.

Anyway ... up to the next issue: what's the exact designation of the engines used so far, what's the exact designation and even more what are the exact specifications of this mystery WS-10B or WS-10X and finally when will that J-20A2 fly?

Deino

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

As said in the dedicated J-20-thread here another question:



So they the difference between WS-10 and WS-10B is comparable to the step from the early US F100-PW-100 and -200 to the later uprated and improved versions F100-PW-229. But where in this line dooes the WS-10A fit in?

I just noticed after a second read that You use different WS-10-designations sometimes: Could You please correct me or give a brief summary?

- As far as i thought, the first generation Taihang was plain and simple the WS-10. This was first sppotted in that J-11/WS-10-testbed but not used operationally.

- The first serial Taihangs were then WS-10A (with their gear-box on top) and are all used in the Flanker version (J-11B/BS ...).

- For the WS-10B there are contradicting reports: Sometimes it is used as the WS-10A-development for the J-10 with the gear-box now on the bottom as tested in no. 1004, 1035 and a few Batch 01 J-10B, while for others the WS-10B is a different generation.
So how is the J-10B-version called?? WS-10A2 and WS-10A1 is for the Flankers?

- and finally if I'm not mistaken, the WS-10IPE (sometimes called WS-10G) is now again a different even further development?

Thanks again,
Deino

After watching the documentary from CCTV-4, I just realize that the past designation was wrong. So far, it seems the WS-10B is only designated to power the J-20. So those WS-10 that used to power the J-10 were definitely not the 4th gen B, maybe the WS-10A1 or WS-10A2.

Now it is very clear for the official designation:

WS-10 -> 3rd gen
WS-10B -> 4th gen
WS-15 -> 5th gen

Just like the CV-17, when its official code name is the Type 002, then we don't call it the Type 001A anymore.

 

[Deino]

Thanks !