The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[grey boy 2]

They said Russian engines production line having difficulties catching up with the much increasing demand, quality control going downhill due to the problematic old to new team process
So, conclusion will be "Its time that WE have to start to trust domestic engines"

 

[Figaro]

I fail to see anything worth celebrating. And "getting better" doesn't win wars -- only being the best wins wars. There's no "most improved" prize in war.

Why isn't the WS-15 ready? Gobs of money have been spent and legions of engineers have been trained and put to work. So where's the f*cking engine?!

Building engines is extremely difficult, arguably the hardest part of building any aircraft. Just 20 years ago, China had a virtually non-existent engine base, now it is rapidly closing the gap with Western powers (even if a gap still remains). Engine-building is not a sector where you can just throw billions of dollars and magically sprout a 210kN engine. It takes a lot of time and expertise ...

They said Russian engines production line having difficulties catching up with the much increasing demand, quality control going downhill due to the problematic old to new team process
So, conclusion will be "Its time that WE have to start to trust domestic engines"

That's pretty logical. Russian engines traditionally have a lot of quality/reliability issues. Remember how all the J-10's crashes were caused by faulty AL-31F engines? So much for Russian ingenuity ...

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

So this is the engine that getting mass produced by Shenyang's Liming factory according to CCTV-4, not the previous ones from the J-20 flight demonstrators.

I think with this image showing the first ever WS-10 on a J-20 it is now clearly proven that so far neither any operational J-20 uses a Taihang and that also means that WS-15-theory just crashed like a house of cards.

Why would anyone fit a WS-10 if the WS-15 should be operational "from day one".

I'm interested to read Your conterarguments @Asoka !

Deino



View attachment 422795

This comic cartoony is the Chinese way of satire.

It means that the AL-31 family usually got more explosive power at the expense of having shorter lifespan.

The J-20 needs to fit with engine with less explosive power but with longer lifespan and perhaps with higher thrust.

 

[Figaro]

So this is the engine that getting mass produced by Shenyang's Liming factory according to CCTV-4, not the previous ones from the J-20 flight demonstrators.



This comic cartoony is the Chinese way of satire.

It means that the AL-31 family usually got more explosive power at the expense of having shorter lifespan.

The J-20 needs to fit with engine with less explosive power but with longer lifespan and perhaps with higher thrust.

The AL-31 is inferior to the Chinese WS-10 in reliability, quality, and thrust. No wonder why the Chinese decided to dump their AL-31F's for WS-10B engines ...

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The AL-31 is inferior to the Chinese WS-10 in reliability, quality, and thrust. No wonder why the Chinese decided to dump their AL-31F's for WS-10B engines ...

The only advantage with the AL-31 is the explosive power, which means it can reach the AB mode in the shortest amount of time. While it takes longer for the American/Chinese engine to reach the AB mode.

The core design of the WS-10 was inspired by the CFM56, so naturally the WS-10 shares more specifications with its American counterparts.

I fail to see anything worth celebrating. And "getting better" doesn't win wars -- only being the best wins wars. There's no "most improved" prize in war.

Why isn't the WS-15 ready? Gobs of money have been spent and legions of engineers have been trained and put to work. So where's the f*cking engine?!

Maybe we were too optimistic about the progress of the WS-15, since the jet engine is considered as the diamond on the crown for the traditional industry, which is above the hierarchy of the nuclear submarine, ICBM, etc.

The turbofan engine needs a lot of cumulative experience, and there is no shortcut way like we did in the quantum network, AI, and other IT industries.

Maybe in the post-turbofan era, China with significantly more advanced ramjet/scramjet technology can easily march ahead the US, since everybody has to start from scratch.

But in the current turbofan era, the US and UK got a lot of more cumulative experience than us, there is no shortcut way, so we have to keep catching up.

 

[Deino]

So this is the engine that getting mass produced by Shenyang's Liming factory according to CCTV-4, not the previous ones from the J-20 flight demonstrators.
...

Not only the demonstrators (2001 & 2002) but also the prototypes (201x) and to add all so far flying J-20 LRIP-birds.

But Your explanation could indeed be the solution: CCTV-4's report was meant this engine "will power the J-20 soon" and not that it already powers it.

By the way any info on how recent this image is? Given that pupu's rumour appeared just yesterday I wouldn't be surprised if that image is at best a few days old.

Anyway I'm still interested on how @Asoka will hold his WS-15 theory?

Deino

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Not only the demonstrators (2001 & 2002) but also the prototypes (201x) and to add all so far flying J-20 LRIP-birds.

But Your explanation could indeed be the solution: CCTV-4's report was meant this engine "will power the J-20 soon" and not that it already powers it.

By the way any info on how recent this image is? Given that pupu's rumour appeared just yesterday I wouldn't be surprised if that image is at best a few days old.

Anyway I'm still interested on how @Asoka will hold his WS-15 theory?

Deino

The documentary of the CCTV-4 was aired in May 2017, and the decision to implement the J-20A2 was done in the first half of 2016.

The documentary mentioned about the Zhuhai show in November 2016, so it is likely that they started producing the J-20A2 since the end of 2016. But instead, China has only showed the deployed J-20A1 in the public so far.

 

[Hyperion]

Couldn't agree more. And never forget, engine building or anything to do with metallurgy in general is equal parts science and art, and not many out there want to give away the art part of it. No matter the monetary incentives.

In another life, I was an awesome metallurgical engineer!

Note for @Asoka, mate, I enjoy the counterpoints you put forward and your zeal in general. Never give up. Do what you do best. Question. Question. Question. Never let @Deino or anyone else tell you otherwise.

The turbofan engine needs a lot of cumulative experience, and there is no shortcut way like we did in the quantum network, AI, and other IT industries.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Couldn't agree more. And never forget, engine building or anything to do with metallurgy in general is equal parts science and art, and not many out there want to give away the art part of it. No matter the monetary incentives.

In another life, I was an awesome metallurgical engineer!

Note for @Asoka, mate, I enjoy the counterpoints you put forward and your zeal in general. Never give up. Do what you do best. Question. Question. Question. Never let @Deino or anyone else tell you otherwise.

Here is the chronological timeline for the availability of the iconic US weapons.

1975: Nimitz
1990: Trident II
1991: Arleigh Burke
1997: Seawolf & B-2 Spirit
2005: F119

When the US was capable to build so many marvelous war machines, yet it still took them so many years to field the F119 turbofan engine for the F-22. When the J-20B with the WS-15 is designated to overwhelm the F-22, so the WS-15 is designated to be superior over the F119 as well. So for China, the WS-15 is no less pushover than the incoming Type 003 nuclear supercarrier and JL-3 SLBM.

 

[Hyperion]

You know something, what I would like China doing is, start working on 2D TV of WS-10 and implement it ASAP. Why leave an important variable of 'super manoeuvrability' out of the equation? Furthermore, keep the WS15 project full throttle in parallel and not lose focus. The good part is, the prevailing geo strategic environment for 4 - 6 years timespan, gives China a free run to carry out R&D to it's liking. But remember, that's about all the time China will get. Either it makes or not will depend squarely on China. In short, you should not lose focus.

One more thing, F119 is incorrectly reported to be 160 kN class (by intention). That's just plain BS. Think more on the lines of 210kN.

Here is the chronological timeline for the availability of the iconic US weapons.

1975: Nimitz
1990: Trident II
1991: Arleigh Burke
1997: Seawolf
2005: F119

When the US was capable to build so many marvelous war machines, yet it still took them so many years to field the F119 turbofan engine for the F-22. When the J-20B with the WS-15 is designated to overwhelm the F-22, so the WS-15 is designated to be superior over the F119 as well. So for China, the WS-15 is no less pushover than the incoming Type 003 nuclear supercarrier and JL-3 SLBM.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

You know something, what I would like China doing is, start working on 2D TV of WS-10 and implement it ASAP. Why leave an important variable of 'super manoeuvrability' out of the equation? Furthermore, keep the WS15 project full throttle in parallel and not lose focus. The good part is, the prevailing geo strategic environment for 4 - 6 years timespan, gives China a free run to carry out R&D to it's liking. But remember, that's about all the time China will get. Either it makes or not will depend squarely on China. In short, you should not lose focus.

One more thing, F119 is incorrectly reported to be 160 kN class (by intention). That's just plain BS. Think more on the lines of 210kN.

The F119 without the 2D TVC nozzle probably got an AB thrust of 175KN, and the 2D TVC nozzle is a penalty and probably caused it to lose around 10% of thrust.

The WS-15 is running smoothly in its development according China's military expert in a CCTV interview from last year. Optimistically, we could see it being installed on the J-20B around 2020. For all the information I heard, China has chosen the 3D TVC nozzle for the WS-15, and it is a 180KN class turbofan engine.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

The F119 without the 2D TVC nozzle probably got an AB thrust of 175KN, and the 2D TVC nozzle is a penalty and probably caused it to lose around 10% of thrust.

The WS-15 is running smoothly in its development according China's military expert in a CCTV interview from last year. Optimistically, we could see it being installed on the J-20B around 2020. For all the information I heard, China has chosen the 3D TVC nozzle for the WS-15, and it is a 180KN class turbofan engine.

Speaking of 2D nozzle, can J-20 engine to incorporate this section, is it hard to do?

 

[Hyperion]

Well, if it were me, I'd rather go with 2DTVC, on a canarded platform. But hey, that's me!

The F119 without the 2D TVC nozzle probably got an AB thrust of 175KN, and the 2D TVC nozzle is a penalty and probably caused it to lose around 10% of thrust.

The WS-15 is running smoothly in its development according China's military expert in a CCTV interview from last year. Optimistically, we could see it being installed on the J-20B around 2020. For all the information I heard, China has chosen the 3D TVC nozzle for the WS-15, and it is a 180KN class turbofan engine.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Speaking of 2D nozzle, can J-20 engine to incorporate this section, is it hard to do?

Yes, the J-20 can incorporate with this feature, but expect the WS-15 to lose about 10% of thrust over few RCS reducing on the rear.

Well, if it were me, I'd rather go with 2DTVC, on a canarded platform. But hey, that's me!

Then expect the WS-15 with an AB thrust of 162KN, but its rear will get a slightly lower RCS.

 

[帅的一匹]

Sawtooth Nozzle of WS10 engine variant on J20, no more dispute

No Al31 from now on , and no WS15 yet.

@Deino this thread could be closed

The development path of J20 engine is very clear: al31----WS10b----WS15

J20 is a strategic weapon, so we can't always rely on others supplying critical parts like engine.

This picture means mass production of J20 begins.

Yes, the J-20 can incorporate with this feature, but expect the WS-15 to lose about 10% of thrust over few RCS reducing on the rear.



Then expect the WS-15 with an AB thrust of 162KN, but its rear will get a slightly lower RCS.

162KN is more than enough