Han Patriot
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We are only seeing a picture of unknown source,I think we should wait for more official releases before making any assumptions.
The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !
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ChineseTiger1986
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The core of the WS-10 is a reverse engineering of the CFM-56.
j20blackdragon
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J-10B #1035 prototype powered by WS-10 showed up in 2011.
You can confirm the date with these two sources.
Source 1:
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2011-08-08/chengdu-flies-chinese-powered-j-10-fighter
Source 2:
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/07/just-bunch-j-10-photos.html
J-10B production began in 2013.
On the other hand, J-20 production began in December 2015 (#2101), and the WS-10X prototype shows up in September 2017...
Something is wrong here.
By the way, the AL-31FN Series 3 deal was also signed in 2011.
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/07/123-af-31fn-engine-as-ordered-by-china.html
J-10B production began two years later.
Regarding the J-20, we still have no evidence of any AL-31 deal whatsoever. What exactly is powering the initial prototypes and early LRIP? We still don't know.
You can confirm the date with these two sources.
Source 1:
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2011-08-08/chengdu-flies-chinese-powered-j-10-fighter
Source 2:
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/07/just-bunch-j-10-photos.html
J-10B production began in 2013.
On the other hand, J-20 production began in December 2015 (#2101), and the WS-10X prototype shows up in September 2017...
Something is wrong here.
By the way, the AL-31FN Series 3 deal was also signed in 2011.
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/07/123-af-31fn-engine-as-ordered-by-china.html
J-10B production began two years later.
Regarding the J-20, we still have no evidence of any AL-31 deal whatsoever. What exactly is powering the initial prototypes and early LRIP? We still don't know.
J-10B #1035 prototype powered by WS-10 showed up in 2011.
You can confirm the date with these two sources.
Source 1:
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2011-08-08/chengdu-flies-chinese-powered-j-10-fighter
Source 2:
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/07/just-bunch-j-10-photos.html
J-10B production began in 2013.
On the other hand, J-20 production began in December 2015 (#2101), and the WS-10X prototype shows up in September 2017...
Something is wrong here.
By the way, the AL-31FN Series 3 deal was also signed in 2011.
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/07/123-af-31fn-engine-as-ordered-by-china.html
J-10B production began two years later.
Regarding the J-20, we still have no evidence of any AL-31 deal whatsoever. What exactly is powering the initial prototypes and early LRIP? We still don't know.
I personally believe they were AL-31FN engines custom built in China with parts sourced from Chinese manufacturers and assembled in the PLAAF AL-31(FN) overhaul and rebuild facility.
Figaro
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Not anymore
. The Chinese have ditched those AL-31F engines ...
Nan Yang
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China's stealth fighter may be getting a new engine
Relying on Russian engines has put China at the mercy of a single, foreign supplier. That could be changing.
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Yesterday at 1:15pm
A FLIGHT SEEN AROUND THE WORLD
Two J-20s make the public debut of China's first stealth fighter, coming low over the Zhuhai runway.
dafeng cao (@xinfengcao)
With its J-20 heavy fighter, China became the second nation in the world (after the USA) to field a fleet of stealthy fifth generation fighters. But until recently, there has been a key limitation for the J-20 heavy fighter, and Chinese aerospace in general: a reliance on foreign engines. That's looks to be changing, quickly.
Images that just surfaced online show a new-built J-20 with stealthy WS-10 turbofan engines, which are developed and manufactured in China. These engines are distinguished by their serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps for manipulating the exhaust flow.
Once these new J-20s enter service, China will have comprehensively mastered the major parts of fighter technology, including radars, stealthy fuselage, missiles, computers, and engines.
WS-10A
The WS-10A, which powers the J-11 heavy fighters, is China's first operational low bypass, afterburning turbofan engines.
Errymath
Both prototype and production models of the J-20 fighter currently rely on an advanced variant of the Russian Al-31 turbofan engine. Using this tech since the fighter's first flight in 2011 has put China at the mercy of a single, foreign supplier. But not for much longer, it seems.
Photos of the new Chinese J-20, production number "2021," reveal turbofan engines that clearly belong to the WS-10 Taihang (built by Shenyang Liming). Among the shared features are the semicircle of small flaps, vanes for controlling exhaust flows, on the inner nozzle, and wider afterburning, variable geometry petals. The Russian Salyut AL-31 does not have those features.
Additionally, the WS-10X (possibly officially designated WS-10G or WS-10IPE) has sawtoothed serrations on the edges of its afterburning nozzles, like the F-35's F119 engine. The sawtooth edges provide a gain in stealthiness, as they redirect radar waves away from the nozzles. (The straight edges on non-stealthy engines like the AL-31 are major contributors to the radar cross section of a fighter).
In addition to the gains in stealth, the WS-10X is believed to provide about 14-15 tons of thrust. This may be enough power to allow the J-20 to engage in low supersonic supercruise at Mach 1-1.2 speeds. The Eurofighter Typhoon has a similar low supercruise capability, which means it can hit supersonic speeds without using fuel-thirsty afterburners.
The gains in engine connect to broader news in materials. The Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Company, a privately held corporation, made a major breakthrough in superalloy research. CASTC, according to the Global Times and People's Daily, is producing world class single crystal turbine blades from rhenium-nickel superalloys; adding rhenium to nickel increases the superalloy's melting point, allowing for a hotter and more efficient engine. High rhenium content superalloys are used in light weight, high thrust engines like the F-22 Raptor's F109 turbofan. Previously, the development of Chinese engines like the WS-10 were delayed as they suffered from quality control issues regarding single crystal turbine blades. China's mastery of the rhenium superalloy (and by the private sector, no less) won't just help China build current fighter engines, but also quickly research more capable, higher tech models.
Relying on Russian engines has put China at the mercy of a single, foreign supplier. That could be changing.
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Yesterday at 1:15pm
A FLIGHT SEEN AROUND THE WORLD
Two J-20s make the public debut of China's first stealth fighter, coming low over the Zhuhai runway.
dafeng cao (@xinfengcao)
With its J-20 heavy fighter, China became the second nation in the world (after the USA) to field a fleet of stealthy fifth generation fighters. But until recently, there has been a key limitation for the J-20 heavy fighter, and Chinese aerospace in general: a reliance on foreign engines. That's looks to be changing, quickly.
Images that just surfaced online show a new-built J-20 with stealthy WS-10 turbofan engines, which are developed and manufactured in China. These engines are distinguished by their serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps for manipulating the exhaust flow.
Once these new J-20s enter service, China will have comprehensively mastered the major parts of fighter technology, including radars, stealthy fuselage, missiles, computers, and engines.
WS-10A
The WS-10A, which powers the J-11 heavy fighters, is China's first operational low bypass, afterburning turbofan engines.
Errymath
Both prototype and production models of the J-20 fighter currently rely on an advanced variant of the Russian Al-31 turbofan engine. Using this tech since the fighter's first flight in 2011 has put China at the mercy of a single, foreign supplier. But not for much longer, it seems.
Photos of the new Chinese J-20, production number "2021," reveal turbofan engines that clearly belong to the WS-10 Taihang (built by Shenyang Liming). Among the shared features are the semicircle of small flaps, vanes for controlling exhaust flows, on the inner nozzle, and wider afterburning, variable geometry petals. The Russian Salyut AL-31 does not have those features.
Additionally, the WS-10X (possibly officially designated WS-10G or WS-10IPE) has sawtoothed serrations on the edges of its afterburning nozzles, like the F-35's F119 engine. The sawtooth edges provide a gain in stealthiness, as they redirect radar waves away from the nozzles. (The straight edges on non-stealthy engines like the AL-31 are major contributors to the radar cross section of a fighter).
In addition to the gains in stealth, the WS-10X is believed to provide about 14-15 tons of thrust. This may be enough power to allow the J-20 to engage in low supersonic supercruise at Mach 1-1.2 speeds. The Eurofighter Typhoon has a similar low supercruise capability, which means it can hit supersonic speeds without using fuel-thirsty afterburners.
The gains in engine connect to broader news in materials. The Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Company, a privately held corporation, made a major breakthrough in superalloy research. CASTC, according to the Global Times and People's Daily, is producing world class single crystal turbine blades from rhenium-nickel superalloys; adding rhenium to nickel increases the superalloy's melting point, allowing for a hotter and more efficient engine. High rhenium content superalloys are used in light weight, high thrust engines like the F-22 Raptor's F109 turbofan. Previously, the development of Chinese engines like the WS-10 were delayed as they suffered from quality control issues regarding single crystal turbine blades. China's mastery of the rhenium superalloy (and by the private sector, no less) won't just help China build current fighter engines, but also quickly research more capable, higher tech models.
Deino
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Not anymore
But the question is: Since when ?
beijingwalker
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China's stealth fighter may be getting a new engine
Relying on Russian engines has put China at the mercy of a single, foreign supplier. That could be changing.
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 15 hours ago
A FLIGHT SEEN AROUND THE WORLD
Two J-20s make the public debut of China's first stealth fighter, coming low over the Zhuhai runway.
With its J-20 heavy fighter, China became the second nation in the world (after the USA) to field a fleet of stealthy fifth generation fighters. But until recently, there has been a key limitation for the J-20 heavy fighter, and Chinese aerospace in general: a reliance on foreign engines. That's looks to be changing, quickly.
Images that just surfaced online show a new-built J-20 with stealthy WS-10 turbofan engines, which are developed and manufactured in China. These engines are distinguished by their serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps for manipulating the exhaust flow.
Once these new J-20s enter service, China will have comprehensively mastered the major parts of fighter technology, including radars, stealthy fuselage, missiles, computers, and engines.
WS-10A
The WS-10A, which powers the J-11 heavy fighters, is China's first operational low bypass, afterburning turbofan engines.
Both prototype and production models of the J-20 fighter currently rely on an advanced variant of the Russian Al-31 turbofan engine. Using this tech since the fighter's first flight in 2011 has put China at the mercy of a single, foreign supplier. But not for much longer, it seems.
Photos of the new Chinese J-20, production number "2021," reveal turbofan engines that clearly belong to the WS-10 Taihang (built by Shenyang Liming). Among the shared features are the semicircle of small flaps, vanes for controlling exhaust flows, on the inner nozzle, and wider afterburning, variable geometry petals. The Russian Salyut AL-31 does not have those features.
Additionally, the WS-10X (possibly officially designated WS-10G or WS-10IPE) has sawtoothed serrations on the edges of its afterburning nozzles, like the F-35's F119 engine. The sawtooth edges provide a gain in stealthiness, as they redirect radar waves away from the nozzles. (The straight edges on non-stealthy engines like the AL-31 are major contributors to the radar cross section of a fighter).
In addition to the gains in stealth, the WS-10X is believed to provide about 14-15 tons of thrust. This may be enough power to allow the J-20 to engage in low supersonic supercruise at Mach 1-1.2 speeds. The Eurofighter Typhoon has a similar low supercruise capability, which means it can hit supersonic speeds without using fuel-thirsty afterburners.
The gains in engine connect to broader news in materials. The Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Company, a privately held corporation, made a major breakthrough in superalloy research. CASTC, according to the Global Times and People's Daily, is producing world class single crystal turbine blades from rhenium-nickel superalloys; adding rhenium to nickel increases the superalloy's melting point, allowing for a hotter and more efficient engine. High rhenium content superalloys are used in light weight, high thrust engines like the F-22 Raptor's F109 turbofan. Previously, the development of Chinese engines like the WS-10 were delayed as they suffered from quality control issues regarding single crystal turbine blades. China's mastery of the rhenium superalloy (and by the private sector, no less) won't just help China build current fighter engines, but also quickly research more capable, higher tech models.
http://www.popsci.com/china-stealth-fighter-new-engine
Relying on Russian engines has put China at the mercy of a single, foreign supplier. That could be changing.
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 15 hours ago
A FLIGHT SEEN AROUND THE WORLD
Two J-20s make the public debut of China's first stealth fighter, coming low over the Zhuhai runway.
With its J-20 heavy fighter, China became the second nation in the world (after the USA) to field a fleet of stealthy fifth generation fighters. But until recently, there has been a key limitation for the J-20 heavy fighter, and Chinese aerospace in general: a reliance on foreign engines. That's looks to be changing, quickly.
Images that just surfaced online show a new-built J-20 with stealthy WS-10 turbofan engines, which are developed and manufactured in China. These engines are distinguished by their serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps for manipulating the exhaust flow.
Once these new J-20s enter service, China will have comprehensively mastered the major parts of fighter technology, including radars, stealthy fuselage, missiles, computers, and engines.
WS-10A
The WS-10A, which powers the J-11 heavy fighters, is China's first operational low bypass, afterburning turbofan engines.
Both prototype and production models of the J-20 fighter currently rely on an advanced variant of the Russian Al-31 turbofan engine. Using this tech since the fighter's first flight in 2011 has put China at the mercy of a single, foreign supplier. But not for much longer, it seems.
Photos of the new Chinese J-20, production number "2021," reveal turbofan engines that clearly belong to the WS-10 Taihang (built by Shenyang Liming). Among the shared features are the semicircle of small flaps, vanes for controlling exhaust flows, on the inner nozzle, and wider afterburning, variable geometry petals. The Russian Salyut AL-31 does not have those features.
Additionally, the WS-10X (possibly officially designated WS-10G or WS-10IPE) has sawtoothed serrations on the edges of its afterburning nozzles, like the F-35's F119 engine. The sawtooth edges provide a gain in stealthiness, as they redirect radar waves away from the nozzles. (The straight edges on non-stealthy engines like the AL-31 are major contributors to the radar cross section of a fighter).
In addition to the gains in stealth, the WS-10X is believed to provide about 14-15 tons of thrust. This may be enough power to allow the J-20 to engage in low supersonic supercruise at Mach 1-1.2 speeds. The Eurofighter Typhoon has a similar low supercruise capability, which means it can hit supersonic speeds without using fuel-thirsty afterburners.
The gains in engine connect to broader news in materials. The Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology Company, a privately held corporation, made a major breakthrough in superalloy research. CASTC, according to the Global Times and People's Daily, is producing world class single crystal turbine blades from rhenium-nickel superalloys; adding rhenium to nickel increases the superalloy's melting point, allowing for a hotter and more efficient engine. High rhenium content superalloys are used in light weight, high thrust engines like the F-22 Raptor's F109 turbofan. Previously, the development of Chinese engines like the WS-10 were delayed as they suffered from quality control issues regarding single crystal turbine blades. China's mastery of the rhenium superalloy (and by the private sector, no less) won't just help China build current fighter engines, but also quickly research more capable, higher tech models.
http://www.popsci.com/china-stealth-fighter-new-engine
CriticalThought
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Wonderful, and well done!! This is another monumental achievement in the long list of 'super achievements' made by China in recent decades.
China's other fighter programs, such as J-10 and FC-1, regularly benefit from technologies that trickle down from top of the line research done for J-20. Looking forward to good times ahead.
China's other fighter programs, such as J-10 and FC-1, regularly benefit from technologies that trickle down from top of the line research done for J-20. Looking forward to good times ahead.
ziaulislam
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I will give it another 3 years when they publically announce that they no longer need foreign engines
Imran Khan
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great news waiting since long time
Deino
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Come on @beijingwalker !
Why again a new thread ??? It was already posted this morning and already merged. So why again a new one especialyl if You surely know we have a dedicated already??
lmjiao
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Quite enough, I think.
Maybe foreign engines are no longer essential in the future, but why the need to say no if it is cheap and still useful, especially if supplies and spare parts availability are assured.
China can always concentrate their production on other more pressing needs and future opportunities like commercial jet engines.
.
CriticalThought
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If you don't establish demand for your product the industry will not take off and further R&D will become stunted.
The real battle has started now. Companies like GM are moving towards Carbon Matrix Composites for engine blades. For increasing stealth and performance, there is always the need to decrease IR signature while improving thrust.
You don't want to make a mistake like Indians who kept researching Tejas for 30 years. You need to operationalize thus technology so you get real world feedback and perform further research.
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