The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[Ultima Thule]

What do you mean by "moderate afterburner", that is a confusing term. Either its running an afterburner or not, anything in between is suggested to be an afterburner by default

Throttle setting least throttle setting means no AB, max throttle setting means full AB, in between least and full @Asoka suggests moderate throttle setting means "moderate AB"

He already blocked you ... so really no point of responding LOL

doesn't matter he just start to talking WS-15 crap in 2016 zuhai airshow , how about special version of WS-10 specially design for J-20 with a higher thrust lower life span versions that all i am talking about Mr @Figaro

 

[Figaro]

Throttle setting least throttle setting means no AB, max throttle setting means full AB, in between least and full @Asoka suggests moderate throttle setting means "moderate AB"


doesn't matter he just start to talking WS-15 crap in 2016 zuhai airshow , how about special version of WS-10 specially design for J-20 with a higher thrust lower life span versions that all i am talking about Mr @Figaro

Well I know. But no point in responding to his posts now as he has blocked you (and hence won't read your posts). Now, can you stop this ridiculous back and forth exchange with Asoka?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Well I know. But no point in responding to his posts now as he has blocked you (and hence won't read your posts). Now, can you stop this ridiculous back and forth exchange with Asoka?

he didn't understand me at all, not me but all Chinese other senior members which saying that WS-15 was completed its ground testing and soon it will start testing on IL-76 testbed @Asoka wont agree with anyone and insisting his crap that J-20 using WS-15 from day one, what should i do Mr @Figaro

 

[Figaro]

he didn't understand me at all, not me but all Chinese other senior members which saying that WS-15 was completed its ground testing and soon it will start testing on IL-76 testbed @Asoka wont agree with anyone and insisting his crap that J-20 using WS-15 from day one, what should i do Mr @Figaro

Ignore him. Please. Just ignore him if you don't agree with his arguments. Don't be condescending towards Asoka; he treats you with respect and you ought to also do the same. Asoka is not asking for your approval or criticizing you directly, so there's no need for bashing. And if you really don't like what he has to say, just block him. Don't further derail the thread with pointless back and forth arguments which aren't conducive to the J-20. We're not 10 year old kids, now are we?

 

[Asoka]

If J-20's empty weight is 22 tons (2 more than F-22) and carrying only 4 tons of internal fuel for the demo, than it's flying weight would be 26 tons, that is 8.8 tons (or 51.2%) more than the military thrusts (17.2 tons) of two WS-10 or AL-31 engine.

At such a load on the engines, not only their AB must be turned on, but it must be turned on to near full blast, and a long red hot flame must be definitely visible, in a cloudy overcast day.

There is no visual evidence, that J-20's AB was even turned on, during the vertical climb demo, much less, turned on to full blast.

A su-27 equipped with Al-31 engines, turned on afterburner in full blast.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Ignore him. Please. Just ignore him if you don't agree with his arguments. Don't be condescending towards Asoka; he treats you with respect and you ought to also do the same. Asoka is not asking for your approval or criticizing you directly, so there's no need for bashing. And if you really don't like what he has to say, just block him. Don't further derail the thread with pointless back and forth arguments which aren't conducive to the J-20. We're not 10 year old kids, now are we?

Please give this advice to also @Asoka to come with solid and concrete prove not some of his speculation and false assertions he is not trying to understand others, forget me but other respected senior Chinese members like @ChineseTiger1986 , @Beast , @wanglaokan , @cirr , @cnleio and others who knows better than @Asoka on J-20/WS-15 conditions Mr @Figaro

 

[Figaro]

Please give this advice to also @Asoka to come with solid and concrete prove not some of his speculation and false assertions he is not trying to understand others, forget me but other respected senior Chinese members like @ChineseTiger1986 , @Beast , @wanglaokan , @cirr , @cnleio and others who knows better than @Asoka on J-20/WS-15 conditions Mr @Figaro

He has a choice to believe in whatever opinion he so desires. I have already told him that his premise is flawed but obviously, Asoka has not concurred ... so I stopped trying. If one believe's so strongly in his/her opinion, there is nothing you can do to change that. If Asoka decides to go against the advice of senior members, its his choice and it is not in my capability to convince him to do otherwise. Just let it be ... and please stop arguing with Asok. Neither side is going to give in and it is nauseating to watch you guys do so ... he has already done his part by stepping out of the argument (by blocking you LOL), now it is your turn @pakistanipower

 

[LJQC]

And you can tell by?!?!?!? The nozzle is obscuring the interior engine portion my friend ... you can post another photo to prove it ...

As you requested:

Those two images are shot within 1 sec interval at takeoff on the runway.

And I have a perfect angled J20 video:

Notice when the flame came out and the nozzle opens. The nozzle control system looks pretty similar to Su27:

Before engine start, during the ignition and when in IDLE mode, the nozzles are completely open to provide the most favorable conditions for engine start: the greatest torque of the turbine, minimum overheating, and minimum thrust during IDLE mode. When the throttle is moved forward to 77-81% of the engine RPM, the nozzles close partially in order to produce improved thrust characteristics. When the afterburner is switched on, the nozzles opens in order to maintain the turbine exhaust temperature.

At last, I don't think that F-16 nozzle has obscured the glow at all. One can clearly see the flame gradually comes out. I doubt you watch it carefully.

@LJQC Previously, I have posted the vertical climb of J-20, and ask you specifically, if you see any evidence of AB turned on.

See Message #150.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...-to-keep-the-j-20-thread-clean.514445/page-10

Have you examined it, yet?

If you posted pictures of J-20 using AB, any other times, it does not prove, it's AB was turned on, during that vertical climb.

This is just plain logic.

Don't evade my question or request, plz. Let's be honest.

No one honestly can judge when it's in a vertical climb since what happens in the nozzles are so obscured. I do not so I judge by its openness of the nozzle in my posts before. Like this J-15 which definitely took off with full afterburner but you cannot see any flame coming out of the nozzle.

 

[samsara]

Please give this advice to also @Asoka to come with solid and concrete prove not some of his speculation and false assertions he is not trying to understand others, forget me but other respected senior Chinese members like @ChineseTiger1986 , @Beast , @wanglaokan , @cirr , @cnleio and others who knows better than @Asoka on J-20/WS-15 conditions Mr @Figaro

@pakistanipower, The way I see it is YOU are trying hard, very hard to shut @Asoka off from giving his views with your many terse posts!!

If you don't like what he posted, simply ignore him. Let the rest members decide on their own what to read, what to ignore, what to take seriously. Are you okay with this forum principle?

 

[Asoka]

As you requested:

View attachment 422014

Those two images are shot within 1 sec interval.



No one honestly can judge when it's in a vertical climb since what happens in the nozzles are so obscured. I do not so I judge by its openness of the nozzle in my posts before. Like this J-15 which definitely took off with full afterburner but you cannot see any flame coming out of the nozzle.

View attachment 422016

View attachment 422017

Your reply is disingenuous,(不诚实的诡辩) not candid or sincere, (synonyms: insincere, dishonest, untruthful, false, deceitful, duplicitous, lying), at best.

I have also said in the previous post.

"If J-20's empty weight is 22 tons (2 more than F-22) and carrying only 4 tons of internal fuel for the demo, than it's flying weight would be 26 tons, that is 8.8 tons (or 51.2%) more than the military thrusts (17.2 tons) of two WS-10 or AL-31 engine.

At such a load on the engines, not only their AB must be turned on, but it must be turned on to near full blast, and a long red hot flame must be definitely visible, in a cloudy overcast day.

There is no visual evidence, that J-20's AB was even turned on, during the vertical climb demo, much less, turned on to full blast.

A su-27 equipped with Al-31 engines, turned on afterburner in full blast."

I used the example of the Vertical climb, during the airshow, to demonstrate that J-20 can not be using a "low" power engine like WS-10 or AL-31, otherwise, it would have to turn on its AB to near full blast.

And you tell you me, you can not see, whether the AB is turned on or not, because

"No one honestly can judge, when it's in a vertical climb, since what happens, in the nozzles ,are so obscured. "

@pakistanipower, The way I see it is YOU are trying hard, very hard to shut @Asoka off from giving his views with your many terse posts!!

If you don't like what he posted, simply ignore him. Let the rest members decide on their own what to read, what to ignore, what to take seriously. Are you okay with this forum principle?

Thank you, Bros. For trying to get a mad dog, off my back. @Figaro.

 

[LJQC]

Your reply is disingenuous,(不诚实的诡辩) not candid or sincere, (synonyms: insincere, dishonest, untruthful, false, deceitful, duplicitous, lying), at best.

I have also said in the previous post.

"If J-20's empty weight is 22 tons (2 more than F-22) and carrying only 4 tons of internal fuel for the demo, than it's flying weight would be 26 tons, that is 8.8 tons (or 51.2%) more than the military thrusts (17.2 tons) of two WS-10 or AL-31 engine.

At such a load on the engines, not only their AB must be turned on, but it must be turned on to near full blast, and a long red hot flame must be definitely visible, in a cloudy overcast day.

There is no visual evidence, that J-20's AB was even turned on, during the vertical climb demo, much less, turned on to full blast.

A su-27 equipped with Al-31 engines, turned on afterburner in full blast."

I used the example of the Vertical climb, during the airshow, to demonstrate that J-20 can not be using a "low" power engine like WS-10 or AL-31, otherwise, it would have to turn on its AB to near full blast.

And you tell you me, you can not see, whether the AB is turned on or not, because

"No one honestly can judge, when it's in a vertical climb, since what happens, in the nozzles ,are so obscured. "



Thank you, Bros. For trying to get a mad dog, off my back. @Figaro.

I'm not asking whether the aircraft should turn its AB on or not. I'm just pointing out that Max AB does not necessarily comes with a visible red hot flame, using J15 as an example.

I live in Hong Kong and have been to the 2016 Zhuhai airshow myself. The day when J-20s perform their demo is not overcast at all. There's a good reason that you did not see any flame cones coming out of the nozzle.

 

[Asoka]

I'm not asking whether the aircraft should turn its AB on or not. I'm just pointing out that Max AB does not necessarily comes with a visible red hot flame, using J15 as an example.

I live in Hong Kong and have been to the 2016 Zhuhai airshow myself. The day when J-20s perform their demo is not overcast at all. There's a good reason that you did not see any flame cones coming out of the nozzle.

The example of J-15 can not be said, that its AB was turned on, to the Maximum, if it was turned on (I agreed that it looks like, it was turned on). There was no long hot flame shooting out, as in this F-16.

It might not be overcast, but it definitely cloudy, so its perfect to witness a long hot flame, coming out of a jet engine.

If J-20 was using either the Ws-10 or AL-31 during the vertical climb demo, its AB must have turned on to near MAXIMUM to supply enough thrust, to be greater than its flying weight.

This is my point, not whether its AB was just on or not.

We, definitely, see no long hot burning flames, coming out of J-20's nozzles, on that vertical climb.

Lets see the demo again. Does it looks like, that's the kind of weather, that makes difficult to see a long hot flames coming out of a jet engine?

 

[Hyperion]

@Deino, I see that you that you are very short on time for moderation. No worries.

deleted by moderator due to insults @Asoka

 

[Deino]

@Deino, I see that you that you are very short on time for moderation. No worries.

Yes indeed there's right now not enough time to clean up all this BS here; I thought to separate this nasty engine discussion from the J-20-thread could help ... seems as if I was wrong.

Anyway therefore an open call to all involved.

I know some deem certain opinions from certain members as a downgrade of this forum, as stupid or whatever but as long as the discussion is civilised I won't delete such posts.

However I beg all - esp. those who already made Your point more than 1000-times - to stop from refraining the same argument over and over again. No-one here will ever convince anyone with another opinion by postsing countless, long and boring posts with the same argument all over again.

As such, either ignore it, ignore a certain member but mots of all:

DON't feed the trolls. The more You reply, the more they have faun to annoy ...

And now back to the topic, which is IMO by now only possible when new evidence come out. For the moment all is said and done.

Deino

 

[LJQC]

The example of J-15 can not be said, that its AB was turned on, to the Maximum, if it was turned on (I agreed that it looks like, it was turned on). There was no long hot flame shooting out, as in this F-16.

View attachment 422021

It might not be overcast, but it definitely cloudy, so its perfect to witness a long hot flame, coming out of a jet engine.

If J-20 was using either the Ws-10 or AL-31 during the vertical climb demo, its AB must have turned on to near MAXIMUM to supply enough thrust, to be greater than its flying weight.

This is my point, not whether its AB was just on or not.

We, definitely, see no long hot burning flames, coming out of J-20's nozzles, on that vertical climb.

Lets see the demo again. Does it looks like, that's the kind of weather, that makes difficult to see a long hot flames coming out of a jet engine?

Speaking of the weather, if I recall right, that day is hazy but the sun is shining high. The overall brightness is good. Even if the weather is as cloudy as the image below, it still doesn't show a hot long flame.

And for an aircraft like Su33, performing a carrier take off using a ski-jump, you always want to at least select afterburner to gain as much speed as possible at the top of the ski-jump. Or it can be dangerous. The need to select afterburner here is the same as in vertical climbing in a 3rd gen fighter.

So what I can tell from the image below are:
1. It is using afterburner.
2. If it really is in full burner, then cloudy weather does not mean you can see a long hot flames coming out of a jet engine.

Then I'm looking at the 4K video of J20 Zhuhai airshow to get a better and closer view:

At the beginning of the vertical climb, I can see the bluish glow of flame in the nozzle but no long hot burning flames, just like the Su33 image. So if the light conditions are similar, then I can tell that the J20 is also using afterburner, at least at the beginning of the vertical climb.

There're also some moments that you can directly see a burning flame holder inside the nozzle. (This one during the break turn.) But still, there's no long flames coming out of the nozzle.