The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[siegecrossbow]

If J-20's empty weight is 22 tons (2 more than F-22) and carrying only 4 tons of internal fuel for the demo, than it's flying weight would be 26 tons, that is 8.8 tons (or 51.2%) more than the military thrusts (17.2 tons) of two WS-10 or AL-31 engine.

At such a load on the engines, not only their AB must be turned on, but it must be turned on to near full blast, and a long red hot flame must be definitely visible, in a cloudy overcast day.

There is no visual evidence, that J-20's AB was even turned on, during the vertical climb demo, much less, turned on to full blast.

A su-27 equipped with Al-31 engines, turned on afterburner in full blast.

View attachment 422012

That's not how vertical climb works though. You don't necessarily need a thrust to weight of over one to perform a vertical climb since you can channel a portion of the plane's forward momentum into a climb. The J-20 didn't go into a climb immediately after take off, so it probably built up some momentum before the climb.

 

[Asoka]

Speaking of the weather, if I recall right, that day is hazy but the sun is shining high. The overall brightness is good. Even if the weather is as cloudy as the image below, it still doesn't show a hot long flame.

And for an aircraft like Su33, performing a carrier take off using a ski-jump, you always want to at least select afterburner to gain as much speed as possible at the top of the ski-jump. Or it can be dangerous. The need to select afterburner here is the same as in vertical climbing in a 3rd gen fighter.

So what I can tell from the image below are:
1. It is using afterburner.
2. If it really is in full burner, then cloudy weather does not mean you can see a long hot flames coming out of a jet engine.

View attachment 422113

Then I'm looking at the 4K video of J20 Zhuhai airshow to get a better and closer view:

At the beginning of the vertical climb, I can see the bluish glow of flame in the nozzle but no long hot burning flames, just like the Su33 image. So if the light conditions are similar, then I can tell that the J20 is also using afterburner, at least at the beginning of the vertical climb.

View attachment 422111

There're also some moments that you can directly see a burning flame holder inside the nozzle. (This one during the break turn.) But still, there's no long flames coming out of the nozzle.

View attachment 422112

What I am saying is that if J-20 is using either Ws-10 or AL-31, it will have to use its AB, and turn it to full or maximum power, in order to have a vertical climb.

You have consistently asserted that it is turned on, but it's invisible, because the plane has turned upward, so the flame became invisible.

But the engine exhaust flame at full Afterburner, will be highly visible from any angle, not visible, or nearly invisible, or obscured by the weather.

And we don't see that long bluish flame at all. And yet we are even debating, whether its turned on at all. That shouldn't happen, if J-20 is using a "underpowered" Ws-1 or AL-31 engine.

I admit that I am not absolutely sure, that there is no bluish flame at all, but I am absolutely certain, that there is no long long bluish flame, with shock diamonds, shooting out.

And that, in my opinion, lacking a highly visible blue flames, like this F135 engine below, proves J-20 is not using a "underpowered" Ws-10 or AL-31 engine, but a very powerful engine, that do not require the AB turned on, to near the maximum, to power a large and heavy fighter like J-20 up a sustained vertical climb.

 

[Deino]

Guys ... can You leave it !

And esp. @Asoka ... it's enough. You theory on "a fighter can only climb with full AB in full reheat and then You see a HUUUUUGE flame and since I cannot see that on the J-20 it must have a super-stronk engine" is already posted so often.

It's fine ... all arguments are on the table and no need to go back and forth over and over again.

Otherwise I close this thread until new evidence emerge.

Deino

 

[Figaro]

Guys ... can You leave it !

And esp. @Asoka ... it's enough. You theory on "a fighter can only climb with full AB in full reheat and then You see a HUUUUUGE flame and since I cannot see that on the J-20 it must have a super-stronk engine" is already posted so often.

It's fine ... all arguments are on the table and no need to go back and forth over and over again.

Otherwise I close this thread until new evidence emerge.

Deino

But isn't this basically a dump thread that is intended for these nonsensical conversations? Basically to purify the original J-20 thread

 

[Asoka]

Guys ... can You leave it !

And esp. @Asoka ... it's enough. You theory on "a fighter can only climb with full AB in full reheat and then You see a HUUUUUGE flame and since I cannot see that on the J-20 it must have a super-stronk engine" is already posted so often.

It's fine ... all arguments are on the table and no need to go back and forth over and over again.

Otherwise I close this thread until new evidence emerge.

Deino

""a fighter, can only climb, with full AB, in full reheat, and then You see a HUUUUUGE flame, and since I cannot see, that on the J-20, it must have a super-stronk engine"

@Deino, What you wrote is nonsense. Please present my theory more accurately. Otherwise, I think you still don't understand me. Thank you!

What I am saying, is that if J-20 was equipped with a "underpowered" engine like WS-10 or AL-31, it must turn on the AB to near full power, to lift a large and heavy fighter like J-20, in a sustained vertical climb. If that's the case, we will definitely see, a long and highly visible bluish flame shooting out. And since we didn't see that happen, it must be using a much more powerful engines than WS-10 or AL-31."

"And esp. @Asoka ... it's enough. "

You would think an one-eyed-man, in a village of total blinds, would be welcomed as saviors. No! He is treated as an threatening troublemaker, incessantly being attacked, insulted and ridiculed, for telling them ridiculous things; things that they can not see, nor they have any ideas of.

"Otherwise I close this thread until new evidence emerge." And run this troublesome Asoka, out of the village.

 

[Deino]

""a fighter, can only climb, with full AB, in full reheat, and then You see a HUUUUUGE flame, and since I cannot see, that on the J-20, it must have a super-stronk engine"

@Deino, What you wrote is nonsense. Please present my theory more accurately. Otherwise, I think you still don't understand me. Thank you!

What I am saying, is that if J-20 was equipped with a "underpowered" engine like WS-10 or AL-31, it must turn on the AB to near full power, to lift a large and heavy fighter like J-20, in a sustained vertical climb. If that's the case, we will definitely see, a long and highly visible bluish flame shooting out. And since we didn't see that happen, it must be using a much more powerful engines than WS-10 or AL-31."

"And esp. @Asoka ... it's enough. "

You would think an one-eyed-man, in a village of total blinds, would be welcomed as saviors. No! He is treated as an threatening troublemaker, incessantly being attacked, insulted and ridiculed, for telling them ridiculous things; things that they can not see, nor they have any ideas of.

"Otherwise I close this thread until new evidence emerge." And run this troublesome Asoka, out of the village.

No, plain and simple it is enough !

 

[cirr]

Guys ... I especially opened a new thread for this nasty engine discussion !

So please keep this one clean.

By the way this must be the most recent new LRIP J-20.
View attachment 421706

 

[Deino]

May I ask for a translation or summary, please?

 

[cirr]

May I ask for a translation or summary, please?

Notice the pic of Taihang Mountain on the right.

 

[Deino]

Notice the pic of Taihang Mountain on the right.

Thanks and even if I know that hint, does it mean:

1. the WS-10 was tested for the first time on a J-20?

2. the WS-10 powers the J-20 from the beginning?

3. the WS-10 will power the J-20 some day ?

Seems to be also here:
http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1880618-1-1.html

 

[siegecrossbow]

Thanks and even if I know that hint, does it mean:

1. the WS-10 was tested for the first time on a J-20?

2. the WS-10 powers the J-20 from the beginning?

3. the WS-10 will power the J-20 some day ?

Seems to be also here:
http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1880618-1-1.html

Seems to imply that WS-10B will be used to power the J-20 in the near future. Speculation remains as whether the switch will be permanent or just for trial, as in the case of the J-10B.

One interesting aspect of this is that the WS-10B doesn't actually produce greater thrust than the AL-31FN Series3/AL-31F M1 engines. Why not wait till WS-15 is ready to switch?

 

[Deino]

Seems to imply that WS-10B will be used to power the J-20 in the near future. Speculation remains as whether the switch will be permanent or just for trial, as in the case of the J-10B.

One interesting aspect of this is that the WS-10B doesn't actually produce greater thrust than the AL-31FN Series3/AL-31F M1 engines. Why not wait till WS-15 is ready to switch?

Upps ... does this mean from our list of three possible contenders for the current engine, suddenly two disappeared ???

Let me refrain the three option under discussions here:


1. an AL-31FN in the 200x-demonstrators, AL-31FN Series 3 for the 201x-prototypes and for the LRIP-birds a most likely an AL-31FM-2-based design (Deino-theory)

2. an WS-10-based design.

3. a prototype WS-15 from day one and now a +210kN serial WS-15 (Asoka-theory)


But if Pupu is correct and his post is slated to assume, that the WS-10B will be used to power the J-20 in the near future, it means so far the J-20 CANNOT be powered by a WS-10-version and if not even the WS-10 is mature, how could then be the WS-15 certified?

I would say if this is correct, options 2 & 3 just died a sudden death.
Or am I wrong ?? @Asoka ??

Deino

 

[siegecrossbow]

Upps ... does this mean from our list of three possible contenders for the current engine, suddenly two disappeared ???

Let me refrain the three option under discussions here:


1. an AL-31FN in the 200x-demonstrators, AL-31FN Series 3 for the 201x-prototypes and for the LRIP-birds a most likely an AL-31FM-2-based design (Deino-theory)

2. an WS-10-based design.

3. a prototype WS-15 from day one and now a +210kN serial WS-15 (Asoka-theory)


But if Pupu is correct and his post is slated to assume, that the WS-10B will be used to power the J-20 in the near future, it means so far the J-20 CANNOT be powered by a WS-10-version and if not even the WS-10 is mature, how could then be the WS-15 certified?

I would say if this is correct, options 2 & 3 just died a sudden death.
Or am I wrong ??

Deino

Are you right or are you right ;D.

Did Russian ever sell China AL-31FM-2? I am of the opinion that the current J-20s are using the same engines as the ones on the J-10B/Cs.

 

[ozranger]

Upps ... does this mean from our list of three possible contenders for the current engine, suddenly two disappeared ???

Let me refrain the three option under discussions here:


1. an AL-31FN in the 200x-demonstrators, AL-31FN Series 3 for the 201x-prototypes and for the LRIP-birds a most likely an AL-31FM-2-based design (Deino-theory)

2. an WS-10-based design.

3. a prototype WS-15 from day one and now a +210kN serial WS-15 (Asoka-theory)


But if Pupu is correct and his post is slated to assume, that the WS-10B will be used to power the J-20 in the near future, it means so far the J-20 CANNOT be powered by a WS-10-version and if not even the WS-10 is mature, how could then be the WS-15 certified?

I would say if this is correct, options 2 & 3 just died a sudden death.
Or am I wrong ??

Deino

After watching so many debates, mostly on CJDBY or FYJS, together with small pieces of related information drawn from Chinese technical publications by the posters, I have come to an impression that an engine directly derived from AL-31F with improved material is under limited production and dedicated for J-20 before having new options. Such an engine might be manufactured from scratch as it is known that there are already overhaul and rebuild production lines for AL-31F in China, or more likely, from an imported AL-31F with parts being replaced or even some bigger adjustment applied. That could explain why you can see typical AL-31F nozzles on J-20 but the state media keep implying J-20 is having engines crafted by indigenous manufacturers.

Not sure if it is too fictitious to others but it made sense to me.

 

[Deino]

After watching so many debates, mostly on CJDBY or FYJS, together with small pieces of related information drawn from Chinese technical publications by the posters, I have come to an impression that an engine directly derived from AL-31F with improved material is under limited production and dedicated for J-20 before having new options. Such an engine might be manufactured from scratch as it is known that there are already overhaul and rebuild production lines for AL-31F in China, or more likely, from an imported AL-31F with parts being replaced or even some bigger adjustment applied. That could explain why you can see typical AL-31F nozzles on J-20 but the state media keep implying J-20 is having engines crafted by indigenous manufacturers.

Not sure if it is too fictitious to others but it made sense to me.

AMEN

Since it is de fact what I'm sayi8ng since I'm a member here. The only point I don't agree, I'm almost sure it is - as in the J-10B/C - an AL-31FN-based design with the gear-box relocated. IMO it does not make sense to re-use the same arrangement of a Flanker when the J-10 uses the same engine installation.

Otherwise You are spot on, since it explains both the relationship, the external similarities and also the "made in China" claims.

Deino

Are you right or are you right ;D.

Did Russian ever sell China AL-31FM-2? I am of the opinion that the current J-20s are using the same engines as the ones on the J-10B/Cs.

Yes ... but that would be impossible to accept by some here.