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The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

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Using the appearance of a supposed WS-10 nozzles, on the newer J-20, to prove his theory that J-20 was using a Russian Engine, is just so pathetic and desperate.

It is absolutely devoid of any logic or reasoning.

....

:hitwall:

The funny thing is only thst you so far preferred to ignore this new prototype. First with an alleged "it is a ps" claim and later with nothing ... But please: Why does CAC fits a non-TVC WS-10-variant on the J-20 if your alleged super-duper engine exists???

I'm eager to learn yet another excuse.
And please beware of twisting words and faked quotes ...

Deino
 
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The funny thing is only thst you so far preferred to ignore this new prototype. First with an alleged "it is a ps" claim and later with nothing ... But please: Why does CAC fits a non-TVC WS-10-variant on the J-20 if your alleged super-duper engine exists???

I'm eager to learn yet another excuse.
And please beware of rwisting words and faked quotes ...

Deino

"But please: Why does CAC fits a non-TVC WS-10-variant on the J-20, if your alleged super-duper engine exists???"


The first two pictures ARE fakes. The faker must have heard of something, and then go home and faked these two pictures.

As I have said in my earlier post.

Although, I believe the testing of Ws-15 with J-20 is completed, and went into LRIP production, but the problems of mass producing the WS-15, may not have solved. It may take several more years to acquire enough experiences and skills or workers to ramp up the productions of WS-15 with reliable quality components.

24 J-20 per years, will require 48 WS-15 engines a year. I don't think the Liming Engine Factory has this production capability yet.

From the CCTV documentary, it is strenuously emphasized that the final assembly of the jet engine, is still done entirely by hands, by highly skilled technicians.

I did not entirely discounted the possibility that J-20 will equip with WS-10, temporarily, to keep up with the J-20 production, as the serial production of WS-15 is still need some times to work it out. Those J-20 equipped with WS-10 could be used for basic familiarity flights for new J-20 pilots, which do not requires the full set of capabilities, like supercruise or supersonic maneuverability.

If that is true, then this is a genius solution, for buying some times, to solve the WS-15 mass production issues, without holding back the training of new pilots, and production of the J-20.

"The funny thing is only thst you, so far preferred, to ignore this new prototype."

The truth is it is too early to make conclusions based on a few pictures. That's why I choose to make tentative comments only.

I have communicated with @Figaro about this possibility through private messages, before you have pointed out the second pic was a fake.

A new possibility of why J-20 is fitted with an variant of WS-10, has emerged.

China might be producing an export variant of J-20 for Pakistan, with a downgraded engine of WS-10, so the secrets of J-20 and WS-15 will be not be leaked out. This is what USA should have done. But choose not to do it, in favor of exporting F-35. Now their key allies will be stuck with this inferior plane, instead of the mighty F-22 Raptor.

We will heard more about that in the future, if that is true. Pakistan has expressed strong interest in obtaining J-20 from China.

We don't know anything about this WS-10 variant on the newer J-20. Is it the 125kN Ws-10a, the 145kN WS-10B, or some new WS-10 variants with 160kN or even 180kN. We don't know.

To make any conclusion is premature. To say this appearance of WS-10 on J-20 proves that J-20 was using a Russian Engine, all along, is simply ludicrous.

Why? I have asked. And you said if Ws-10 was not even installed on J-20 before, how could WS-15 be already installed on J-20, so J-20 must be using AL-31? ( I don't remember Deino's exact words, but that's the general direction of his argument.)

(WS-10 was not ready or the Chinese don't know how to install Ws-10 on J-20? How could anybody ignore the fact, that hundreds of J-10 and J-11s have been flying with WS-10 for years, already? That don't prove WS-10 was ready and the chinese engineers knows how to install their own engine?)

And by leap of imagination and logic-free way, you got the "proof" that J-20 was using AL-31 all along, and continue to totally ignore, the long list of evidences, me and others members, have provided over the years.
 
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WS-15 for J-20 :enjoy: (May 2006)
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@Asoka

You got already a clear warning for NOT twisting words, not mis-quoting other members and even more NOT openly discussing any moderator's decision by again twisting words and misquoting.

I'm not desperate to shut You down - otherwise I would simply deleted all Your BS - and indeed it's more regret, pity or compassion how obsessed anyone can be. Consequently as I promised You as long You do not insult other members - what You repeatedly did - I won't prevent You from making a fool out of Your own.

But enough is enough.

Deino
 
Afterburners (or augmentors) have different stages. For example, the F100-PW-229 has 11 afterburner stages. Other engines may be different.

You do not see flame until the afterburner is engaged.

At minimum augmentation, some flame is visible inside the nozzle but may not even extend outside.
DMjycM7.png


At maximum augmentation, the flame becomes very prominent.
oBgwfEL.png


The point is that the afterburner is not simply ON or OFF. There are different stages of augmentation.

We have pictures of the J-20 at or near maximum afterburner. The flame is blue and the shock diamonds are visible within the flame. Everything is visible in broad daylight.
eMYLE0R.png


I find it interesting that the J-20 can perform high-g maneuvers (with very noticeable vortices) seemingly without the use of maximum afterburner. The J-20 nozzles are nearly dark with only a little bit of light. On the other hand, the F-22 is oftentimes photographed doing similar maneuvers on full afterburner.
pPcN0AO.jpg

0g4SzMm.jpg


The J-20 is highly likely to be heavier, draggier, and with higher wing loading than the F-22. The J-20 also does not have access to F119 engines. I find this all a bit curious.
 
First, he got caught up by some netizens with the original pic of the prototype 2011, then awkwardly admitted that the second pic was PSed. Thus, the credibility of the originator of these pics is becoming skeptical right now.

Again, with the CCTV-4 also starts to question about the credibility of these online pics, the whole engine thing is far from being concluded.

BTW, Mr. Daokou is fine, he recently just gave a new lecture about the incoming JL-3 SLBM in his WeChat.
Can you provide me Daokou's link ... thanks alot. I have never followed him but he seems to be pretty credible
 
Several days ago, On Oct 13, I have posted an old interview of PLAAF J-10 test pilot, Senior Colonel 徐勇凌, who stated unmistakably, in 2011, shortly after the first flight, that TVC was integrated into J-20's Engine and Digital Flight Control System as one unit (矢量推力和飞发一体化), from the get go, from the very beginning, from day one.

"In my opinion, the J-20 development team, embodied, enough courage and innovative spirit. We have ended the state of following others, step by step, in technical development, and we have achieved the state of independent technological innovation.

The J-20’s aerodynamic layout design breakthroughs, required extraordinary courage, and strong innovative spirit. The long distance coupling of the canards with the main wings layout design, the use of full-motion vertical tail, as well as, the integration of Vector Thrust Control (TVC) with the Engine and Flight Control Systems, into one whole unit--are breakthroughs--that without a large number of tests, is unthinkable. "


“在我看来歼二十的研制团队, 体现了, 足够的勇气和创新精神,我们已经结束了, 以往在技术上, 亦步亦趋的状态,可是了关键技术的自主创新。

歼二十气动布局, 设计上的突破, 是要有非凡的, 勇气和雄厚的技术, 作支撑的,长间距的耦合鸭式布局设计,采用全动垂尾,以及在矢量推力和飞发一体化, 控制上的突破,这些技术的采用, 没有大量的试验, 是不可想象的。”

In this very recent TV interview, Senior Colonel 徐勇凌, not only reiterated the claimed that J-20 has integrated Thrust Vector Control (TVC) into its Engine and Digital Flight Control System, he said he has flown the J-20 with integrated TVC, in a simulator. He did not said he has flown the real J-20 with TVC. (I guess he don't want to get court martial for leaking state secret on TV)

At the very end of the video:

"Our J-20, in the area of TVC and Engine and Digital Flight Control System Integration into one unit, after I have flown it, in a simulator, my experience with it , is totally different from third generation aircraft."

徐勇凌 experienced the "completed version" of J-20: Thrust Vector Control (TVC) has passed the test.
徐勇凌体验“完整版”歼20:矢量推力已过关
 
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Pardon, but IMO You again over-interpret this statement. You self say on the end but strangely mark rthe wrong part in that sentence:
At the very end of the video:

"Our J-20, in the area of TVC and Engine and Digital Flight Control System Integration into one unit, after I have flown it, in a simulator, my experience with it , is totally different from third generation aircraft."

徐勇凌 experienced the "completed version" of J-20: Thrust Vector Control (TVC) has passed the test.
徐勇凌体验“完整版”歼20:矢量推力已过关

Ergo, that TVC was not really installed in a real prototype but tested on a simulator... By the way, welcome back! :smitten:

Deino
 
Pardon, but IMO You again over-interpret this statement. You self say on the end but strangely mark rthe wrong part in that sentence:

Ergo, that TVC was not really installed in a real prototype but tested on a simulator... By the way, welcome back! :smitten:

Deino

He said he has flown it, in a simulator, so he won't get court martial, as the details and identity of J-20's engine, is still highly classified. He is not stupid. In the 2011 interview, he has already said J-20 has achieved the breakthrough of integrating TVC into its Digital FCS.

The pictures of J-20, with distinctively tilting nozzles, proves TVC is already a done deal, a while ago.
 
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YES ... all You quote - and given it is correct - does not contradict: it says "has achieved the breakthrough of integrating TVC into its Digital FCS" and "has flown it, in a simulator". No word on has flown in a real aircraft, nothing on has been integrated into operation use. Again my friend, You are dreaming.

Deino
 
How do you achieve the breakthrough of integrating TVC into the Engine's FDIC and the plane's Digital FCS, without first producing an engine with TVC and do a large number of ground and fly tests? Mr. Deino. Don't evade this honest question.
 
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Ever heard of an iron bird? Ever heard of a special dedicated single prototype--engine on a teststand?
Again, that does not rule out that a prototype at the CFTE was already equipped with such a nozzle testwise, but given that statement You Yourself quoted word by word not a single one confirms that all J-20s are using TVC from day one.

We are again in that issue: You take an argument and interpret it was WHITE and I see BLACK or very dark grey... and at least IMO You are not even willing to admit that a shade of grey is possible.
 
Ever heard of an iron bird? Ever heard of a special dedicated single prototype--engine on a teststand?
Again, that does not rule out that a prototype at the CFTE was already equipped with such a nozzle testwise, but given that statement You Yourself quoted word by word not a single one confirms that all J-20s are using TVC from day one.

We are again in that issue: You take an argument and interpret it was WHITE and I see BLACK or very dark grey... and at least IMO You are not even willing to admit that a shade of grey is possible.

The words of the Colonel are not essential. I have come to the same conclusion w/o noticing his 2011 interview, first. The pictures of J-20, with its distinctively tilting nozzles, alone, proves TVC is already a done deal, a while ago.

"Ever heard of an iron bird? Ever heard of a special dedicated single prototype--engine on a test stand?"

It's one thing to develop an TVC nozzle and test it on a special single engine, on a test stand, and it is entirely a different thing to integrate the control of the TVC into the engine's Full Digital Integrate Control (FDIC) and the target plane's Digital Flight Control System as One Unit.

You need a large number of fly tests on the target plane.
 
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