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The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

Those saw teeth of WS-10 are a mystery for me. I have never seen them elsewhere in any other engines in the world. I have seen no explanation of their purpose. It's seen they are unique technology to the WS-10. And they seems could flip outward, when the engine is on.

Anyone knows their purpose?

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" most stubborn one ", , , "It is annoying."

Yes, facts are most stubborn and annoying, especially, those that are inconvenient to your Russian AL-31-FN-M2 engine theory.

"Yes You are lost"

Yes, I am still very lost, because you still refuse to answer, who this most respected member of yours, "科京同志" is, on PDF.

Then go out and search in here in this forum for Yourself, look what he posted and in what quality his replies are.

Your are repeatedly bloating how much and how long You were searching the net for information to bake Your WS-15 theory and now You are not able to find a respected member in this forum on Your own, read what he posts and judge his credibility.

The only reason You refuse that - besides taking care of Your family - is that You have fear Your theory is smashed once again.

Deino
 
Then go out and search in here in this forum for Yourself, look what he posted and in what quality his replies are.

Your are repeatedly bloating how much and how long You were searching the net for information to bake Your WS-15 theory and now You are not able to find a respected member in this forum on Your own, read what he posts and judge his credibility.

The only reason You refuse that - besides taking care of Your family - is that You have fear Your theory is smashed once again.

Deino


"You are not able to find a respected member in this forum on Your own"

This most respected member "科京同志" you keep refering to is not found on PDF. He don't exist here. You keep refusing to answer my question "Who is he".

@Deino YOU HAVE LIED, BY CLAIMING THIS NONEXISTENT PERSON, "科京同志", IS A MOST RESPECTED MEMBER ON PDF, TO BOOSTER HIS CREDIBILITY.

Screen Shot 2017-09-18 at 2.17.46 PM.png


"The only reason You refuse that - besides taking care of Your family - is that You have fear Your theory is smashed once again."

I searched this most respected member "科京同志", along with both the chinese name, (歼20), and english name for J-20, and here is what I found, from the date: Jan1, 2011-Aug. 31. 2017

Screen Shot 2017-09-18 at 2.28.13 PM.png

This professional rumormonger "科京同志" and Pupu posted nothing about J-20, prior to September, 2017.

I doubt he even has the P.S. skills to faked these two fake J-20 pictures with WS-10. I suspect, somebody gave them to him, and use his influence in the Chinese RumorMills Industry to quickly spread those fake pictures.
 

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"You are not able to find a respected member in this forum on Your own"

This most respected member "科京同志" you keep refering to is not found on PDF. He don't exist here. You keep refusing to answer my question "Who is he".

@Deino YOU HAVE LIED, BY CLAIMING THIS NONEXISTENT PERSON, "科京同志", IS A MOST RESPECTED MEMBER ON PDF, TO BOOSTER HIS CREDIBILITY.

View attachment 426290

"The only reason You refuse that - besides taking care of Your family - is that You have fear Your theory is smashed once again."

I searched this most respected member "科京同志", along with both the chinese name, (歼20), and english name for J-20, and here is what I found, from the date: Jan1, 2011-Aug. 31. 2017

View attachment 426294

This professional rumormonger "科京同志" and Pupu posted nothing about J-20, prior to September, 2017.

I doubt he even has the P.S. skills to faked these two fake J-20 pictures with WS-10. I suspect, somebody gave them to him, and use his influence in the Chinese RumorMills Industry to quickly spread those fake pictures.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:. Look where this post got you ... LOL. Pupu ,while not immune to mistakes, does seem to have a better credibility than you when it comes to the PLAAF. At least he doesn't claim that the J-20 is flying with 3D thrust vectoring, 210kN thrust, and AL-31F look-alike WS-15 from day one.
 
"What does this say????"

Why not use your BING translator. meow. meow.:laughcry:
 
Please provide evidence! We have little evidence that the current engine has 2D thrust vectoring let alone 3D ... why not first start with it has thrust vectoring at all? And besides, TVC bleeds energy and can easily be countered ...

Look at my old posts. Before, you said that's all optical illusions, show me pictures of other planes that has this "optical illusions" of tilted nozzles, and you have proved your point, and I will shut up for good, on this point.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...news-discussions.111471/page-515#post-9143094

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...from-the-j-20-news.514445/page-2#post-9802232
 
Look at my old posts. Before, you said that's all optical illusions, show me pictures of other planes that has this "optical illusions" of tilted nozzles, and you have proved your point, and I will shut up for good, on this point.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...news-discussions.111471/page-515#post-9143094

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...from-the-j-20-news.514445/page-2#post-9802232

the engine that has 3 D TVC is still under development and tests````how can it be on J-20?
none of my sources point me to that```
 
Since late last year, 2016, I have been asserting that J-20 has been using prototype version of WS-15, since day one of testing, and this engine has Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) nozzles and it has, at least, 210kN of thrust.

That J-20 was using an engine with TVC, from day one, has been confirmed by Chinese chief test pilot of J-10, PLAAF Senior Colonel, 徐勇凌, back in 2011, in an interview, with the Chinese "Journal of Naval and Merchant Ships".


"In my opinion, the J-20 development team, embodied, enough courage and innovative spirit. We have ended the state of following others, step by step, in technical development, and we have achieved the state of independent technological innovation.

The J-20’s aerodynamic layout design breakthroughs, required extraordinary courage, and strong innovative spirit. The long distance coupling of the canards with the main wings layout design, the use of full-motion vertical tail, as well as, the integration of Vector Thrust Control (TVC) with the Engine and Flight Control Systems, into one whole unit--are breakthroughs--that without a large number of tests, is unthinkable. "


“在我看来歼二十的研制团队, 体现了, 足够的勇气和创新精神,我们已经结束了, 以往在技术上, 亦步亦趋的状态,可是了关键技术的自主创新。

歼二十气动布局, 设计上的突破, 是要有非凡的, 勇气和雄厚的技术, 作支撑的,长间距的耦合鸭式布局设计,采用全动垂尾,以及在矢量推力和飞发一体化, 控制上的突破,这些技术的采用, 没有大量的试验, 是不可想象的。”

I have anticipated that some jokers might say, he was only talking about J-20 has achieved breakthrough, in integrating Thrust Vector Control (TVC) with the Engine and Flight Control Systems, he did not mentioned that J-20 already has WS-15 engines or it has TVC, installed.

I don't have any more to say to those idiotic jokers. If they want to be stupid, I can't help it, because "you can't fix stupid".


I will only ask them this simple and obvious question:

How do you achieve, an breakthrough, in successively integrating Thrust Vector Control (TVC) into a new fighter plane's Engine and Flight Control Systems, without first produce, an engine with TVC, and then do a large number of ground and flight tests?

upload_2017-10-13_11-57-38.png


中国空军试飞员徐勇凌:
歼20矢量发动机不为人知秘密


2012/9/20 20:18:28

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_6302648_1.html


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Folks, before you dismiss this PLAAF Senior Colonel's words, remember he was the chief test pilot of J-10. He may not have tested the J-20, but he is friend with all the test pilots in the PLAAF Flight Test Institute, which test and certify all new Chinese aircrafts. He knows everybody there. He is an insider of insiders. He, definitely, knows what is going on.

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徐勇凌,杭州人,祖籍江苏省赣榆县班里庄(今班庄镇)军人世家出身。国际级功勋试飞员,空军试飞专家,军事理论专家。歼十飞机首席试飞员,中国试飞员学院特聘教官。空军军事理论专家库成员,中国航空学会高级会员。

昨天朋友聚会,我问一个空军的朋友,我们的四代发动机是不是自己的,当然!朋友表情生动的说。

内部的消息就不能说了,只要你注意,公开的消息已经说的明明白白了。

空军特技试飞员徐勇凌说的你总该信了吧?

“在我看来歼二十的研制团队, 体现了, 足够的勇气和创新精神,我们已经结束了, 以往在技术上, 亦步亦趋的状态,可是了关键技术的自主创新。

歼二十气动布局, 设计上的突破, 是要有非凡的, 勇气和雄厚的技术, 作支撑的,长间距的耦合鸭式布局设计,采用全动垂尾,以及在矢量推力和飞发一体化控制上的突破,这些技术的采用, 没有大量的试验, 是不可想象的。”



http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/p/2011-01-29/1357630576.html

以上谈话内容可见最新一期《舰船知识》2011年第三期32页,注意查找(前面说过,我照片传不上来,文字我一字不落的传上来了)。

这一段文字和上面一段文字非常清晰的传达了许多内容。

什么是飞发一体化?就是飞控和发动机控制的一体化,简单说就是实现飞行员的无顾虑操作,飞行员的操作通过飞行控制的电传软件实现飞行员的操作意图,而响应飞行员这个动作要求的除了各翼面还有矢量推力。

矢量推力显然在设计飞控系统时已经考虑了,否则如何一体化呢?

同时印证了发动机是矢量推力的发动机,而徐勇凌在文章前面还说过,T50在首飞时没有使用矢量推力发动机是T50的一大遗憾,目前T50已经试飞40余次,都没有使用矢量推力发动机的报道,看来毛子是真不行了。

四代首飞的发动机是国产的矢量推力发动机,这个意义怎么估计都不算大!

太给力了!

金属学及材料科学家师昌绪昨天以他对研发高性能战斗机的突出贡献,获得了国家最高科学技术奖。而在此三天之前,中国内地的歼-20隐形战机才刚刚进行首次公开试飞。

据中国内地研究飞机发动机的科学家介绍,曾经担任中国科学院金属研究所所长的师教授研发出了几个系列的绝密的耐热合金。

这些合金早在几十年前就已研制出来,只是因为飞机发动机所采用的金属材料需要很长时间进行测试检验,因此直到最近,师教授研制的合金材料才开始用于中国制造的飞机发动机。

1955年,师昌绪告别了他在麻省理工学院执教的岗位踏上了回国的旅途。他是美国政府明令禁止返回其社会主义祖国的30多位中国旅美科学家之一。他是和钱学森差不多同一时期离开美国的,钱学森是加州理工学院的火箭专家,后来成为中国航天领域的创始人。

师昌绪抵达上海之后,立即被分配到沈阳,那里是中国东北辽宁省的重工业基地,目的是提高钢铁产量。后来,北京与莫斯科的关系迅速恶化,俄罗斯人不再帮助他们的老盟友研制战斗机。中国军方转而求助于师昌绪等科学家。

凭借勤奋、天赋和运气,师昌绪不仅采用他在西方国家学到的传统方法制造出所需要的合金,而且还发明出一些全新的合金系列。

这些新研发的合金在实验室的试验性能相当好,以至于没人敢用它们。出于安全的考虑,飞机设计师们沿用了传统合金制造中国大规模生产的战机发动机,其性能严重落后于国外的同类产品。

此后,师昌绪开发的合金系列开始了在工业领域接受认可的漫长旅程。直到最近,由于他们的合金应用于歼-20等最先进的战斗机上,才获得了设计人员的完全认可。

上海交通大学材料科学与工程学院张澜庭教授说,这是中国航空材料科学领域期待已久的最高荣誉。张教授指出,有些人认为,中国不具备制造高性能飞机发动机的材料,但他们错了。张教授说,事实上,我们有许多质量最为上乘的材料,但为了让飞机设计人员信服地采用这些材料,我们必须进行几十年的试验——通常是30年——以保证绝对的安全。在未来10年内,中国产的发动机将开始在民用领域取代进口发动机。在军用领域,用国产取代进口发动机的工作已经开始。

中国航空领域的最高学府北京航空航天大学新型材料科学的专家指出,中国正在迅速缩小与世界一流发动机制造商之间的技术差距。随着歼-20战斗机及其他新型飞机的成功试飞,如今真该是奖励这些幕后英雄的时候了。

权威论证,歼20战机发动机堪比世界航空三甲

说歼20比SU-27大,甚至超过美国F22,这已是不争的事实。起飞重量超过35吨的数据连美国军事专家都能估算出来,这也不是自吹自擂就能唬人的。如此庞大的机体用中国现有的发动机(J-10或J-11所用)似乎是不可能的了,而所谓有俄罗斯提供,那更是无稽之谈,因为中国根本就没有进口过四代机的发动机,由此看来,中国为四代机所配套的18吨推力的WS-15太行发动机研制成功,已是没有再争论的必要了。

从首飞发动机声音判断,绝对是新型的大涵道比发动机,它的涵道比超过歼10、SU27和F22三种战机。流传的视频显示了“歼-20”的起飞过程,从中看到,起飞时并没有看到发动机尾部的喷火,这足以显示中国“歼-20”的发动机喷口红外隐身技术已达到了世界一流。据资料显示,F-22同样使用了先进的红外隐身技术,通过喷流冷却矩形喷口,垂尾、平尾、尾撑向后延伸,可遮蔽发动机喷口的红外线辐射。在炽热喷流飞出尾喷口前就得到了降温,因而红外特征显着降低。而歼20的发动机喷口竟然如此完美,很多外军专家看后都表示不可思议。

歼20用的发动机是WS-15大推力发动机!这点已毋庸置疑,但外界对该型发动机的性能表示怀疑,其中噪音最大的要数来自美国,在美国人眼里中国应该是一事无成才对,就凭中国闭门造车能够研制出最新一代航空发动机简直就是天方夜谭。果真如此吗,这只能说美国人高傲自大惯了,说句最通俗的话就是,美国的误判已经形成其的专利,没必要去争辩。

笔者以为,中国完全有能力制造出比美国更好的航空发动机。0早在09年某军刊就已在无形中泄露出,中国高推重比涡扇发动机核心机研制成功的消息,其中对推力矢量技术作了业内论证。在09年末某科技杂志的一篇题为“中国航空发动机获突破性进展,推重比大幅提高”的文章中,北京科技大学新金属材料国家重点实验室表示,具有中国独立自主知识产权的新一代航空航天发动机用材料、高温高性能高铌钛铝合金材料将步入产业化阶段。新型高温高性能高铌钛铝合金可以进一步提高涡扇叶片的耐高温能力,从而允许提高发动机进气口温度,进而增加发动机推力。

现今西方国家使用的耐高温材料为镍基耐高温合金,而中国研制出的新型高温高性能高铌钛铝合金,耐高温密度超过镍基高温合金的一半。这一技术将使中国航空航天发动机材料居世界领先水平,据介绍,高铌钛铝合金的应用,开辟了航空、航天、汽车等重要领域的新发展,使现有设备得到突破性发展。更为关键的是,由于高铌钛铝合金的密度大约是镍基合金的一半,使用它制造发动机高温部件,可以大大减轻发动机的重量,从而极大提高了发动机的推重比。

去年3月某报刊登了题为“中国最为先进军用航空发动机已试制交付2台”。文章说,由该公司动控所四室年轻的设计团队从研制生产到顺利交付用户2台目前国内技术最先进、功能最为复杂的某重点型号产品,文章最后一句令人兴奋,中国航空发动机决不会拖中国四代机的后腿。由此可以肯定,这歼20用的发动机就是它。

而就歼20试飞是在万众瞩目,且还有美国防长眼睛在盯着的情况下,能毫不犹豫一飞升天,说明了我们的发动机设计人员已有了充分的自信,这种自信将成为中国四代提前列装中国空军的一种保证,相信歼20试飞已经获得了很大的数据收获,同时为中国新一代战机和航空发动机打下坚实的烙印,向世界证明,中国军工世界一流,并有望与美英法争夺新一代航空发动机桂冠。
 

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OMG ... stupidity and stubborness in perfection.

I really don' know how You still can stick to your claims, when all these fell together like a house of cards with the appearance of the WS-10-powered prototype???

No serial WS-10, even less a WS-15 ... No operational TVC. At best in test but never ever in any delivered one so far... You failed.

Deino

OMG ... stupidity and stubborness in perfection.

I really don' know how You still can stick to your claims, when all these fell together like a house of cards with the appearance of the WS-10-powered prototype???

No serial WS-10, even less a WS-15 ... No operational TVC. At best in test but never ever in any delivered one so far... You failed.

Deino
 
"OMG ... stupidity and stubborness in perfection."

Is Mr. Deino talking about himself?

"No operational TVC."

230959nexej1ey00xeegye (3) (1).jpg


View attachment 431061

Notice, the nozzles of the WS-15 engines was tilted toward the camera, into a nearly perfectly round circle, which would not have occurred, if it was not tilted, at all.

The camera would have to face the tail of the plane, directly, for that effect to occur, if the nozzles were not tilted, at all.

upload_2017-10-13_13-48-33.png


What is that, Mr. Deino?


They are not really tilting, like TVC nozzles, but are merely "Optical illusion" @Deino? This is a Russian Al-31 engine, you said, Mr. Deino? When did you see a non-TVC AL-31 engine with nozzles tilting like that, Mr. Deino?

Then show me, other plane, that also has this "optical illusion", Mr. Deino. There must be hundreds and thousands of pictures of planes with expandable jet nozzles, and some must have also displayed this "optical illusions".

This Senior Colonel of PLAAF, is one of the most senior testing pilot of China, and he has explicitly confirmed that the designers of the J-20 has integrated the TVC control into the Engine and Flight Controls, from the get-go, from the beginning, from day one, of the testing.

Does Mr. Deino really believe that this integration of TVC, into the Engine and Flight Control systems, could be done without first producing an engine with TVC, and then performing a huge number of tests, including actual flying tests?

This Senior Colonel of PLAAF wondered why the Russian T-50 hasn't used an engine with TVC after 50 plus of flights in 2011. He even questioned whether the Russian could produce an adequate engine for the T-50 project.

Mr. Deino got nothing left, in his arguments, except denials, and put his head in the dirt, like an ostrich, and ignore and deny all the evidences that don't fit his "Russian Engine Theory".

Using the appearance of a supposed WS-10 nozzles, on the newer J-20, to prove his theory that J-20 was using a Russian Engine, is just so pathetic and desperate.

It is absolutely devoid of any logic or reasoning.

Despite his long list of "Russian Engine Theories" that failed miserably, I don't expect Mr. Deino will give up, and choose to see the light.
 

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