The international-law Irony of U.S. Provocations in South China Sea

[Tiqiu]

lol, now I doubt you were even in Australia at all. Or you are simply and blatantly lying.

First of all, you claim only the Cabin body was manufactured by Chinese, this is NOT TRUE.
In fact, according to both the Sydney Morning Herald and Manufacturer weekly, only the Driver and Guard Cabin of the train are build and assembled by the Australian in Cardiff Workshop.

Quoting Manufacturer Weekly



http://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/what-if-australia-had-made-the-waratah-trains-

Quoting Sydney Morning Herald



The electric fit out and the interior fit-out were the responsibility of Chinese contractor. The Downer and Hitachi only responsible for implementing and design the software and the construction of driver and guard cabin.

Another point is that Sydney Train transport the first two train set back to China for refit due to the first two test train does not have any safety feature and air conditioning suggested that the interior of the train was worked in China instead of Australian, and to a point where refitting them in Cardiff plant would cost more than sending it back to China can be seen as a major fault how these Chinese train was.

Quote Daily telegraph



The Train, being delayed for average 4 months which required the Cardiff plant to fix many of the mistake Chinese contractor made during the fabrication of the train as quote by the same SMH article



The Channel 10 News were supposed to high light how the train project delayed for 17 months and almost bankrupt the Australian Contractor Downer. You asked for proof the Aussie don't like the train when it rolled out, and proof that the train are poorly build, here another article by Daily Telegraph point out how wrong bolt supposed to be bolted to the seat find its way to waratah train.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...atah-train-seats/story-e6freuzi-1226080231113



So, are there enough "Proof" for you to see the Chinese made train were troubled? You can find A LOT More by googling waratah train.

So there, either you are an emu (Which dug your head in the sand) or you are simply lying, END-OF-STORY

Can you read English?
A liar would always call others lying

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Trains_A_set

Construction and delivery)
The joint venture between Downer EDi Rail and Hitachi was established to design, manufacture and commission the trains.[1] The stainless steel bodies are partially constructed by Changchun Railway Vehicles in China before being shipped to Downer EDI’s Cardiff Locomotive Workshops facility for final assembly, testing and commissioning.[1] The manufacturing facility at Cardiff received an upgrade of over $20 million to cater for the needs of the project.[1] Other infrastructure works included the construction of a the Auburn Maintenance Centre and new substations at various locations around the network.[1

 

[jhungary]

The title of the USNI news clearly stated that it is US territorial water. It cannot be both at the same time. As far as I know, US has not declared the area as international waterway.

There is a difference, according to the link you provided, International Waterways legal definition of International Waterways

The 1958 geneva convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone (516 U.N.T.S. 205, 15 U.S.T. 1606, T.I.A.S. No. 5639) does not deal comprehensively with international waterways, but does provide that "[t]here shall be no suspension of innocent passage of foreign ships through straits which are used for international navigation between one part of the high seas and another part of the high seas or the territorial sea of a foreign state" (art. 16, § 4). A territorial sea is the water that comes under the sovereign control of a state.
​

Did you actually read your own news?

The Chinese ship first enter an passage in international water, then enter the US territorial water, as quote by USNI news you refer to

The PLAN flotilla entered the Bering Sea via international waters via a passage between the Russian Kamchatka peninsula and the American Attu island, a defense official confirmed to USNI News on Thursday.

The international water in blue is the Bering Strait.

China and many other countries do agree to "innocent passage" but required prior notification.

Innocents passage is not a country specific law, it is an international law prescribed by customary international law.

It does not require Prior Notification by anyone. Hence the word "Innocent"

Consider the following (emphasis in red is mine own),

Full statement of US Dept. Defense on USS Curtis Wilbur’s FONOP past Triton Island | South China Sea
The following is the complete Jan. 30 statement on USS Curtis Wilbur’s freedom of navigation mission past Triton Island from the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

I can confirm the Department of Defense conducted a freedom of navigation operation in the South China Sea on Jan 30 (Jan 29 EST), specifically in the vicinity of Triton Island in the Paracel Islands, to challenge excessive maritime claims of parties that claim the Paracel Islands.

This operation challenged attempts by the three claimants, China, Taiwan and Vietnam, to restrict navigation rights and freedoms around the features they claim by policies that require prior permission or notification of transit within territorial seas. The excessive claims regarding Triton Island are inconsistent with international law as reflected in the Law of the Sea Convention.
​

U.S. consider prior permissiion and notification before transit as excessive and illegal in UNCLOS.

China and many other countries disagree.

And the issue is controversial, because UNCLOS is ambiguous in that respect.

This is not an innocents passage by the US, this is a freedom of navigation right claim by the US to the so called Territorial water by China.

The situation is not the same as the time the Chinese use innocent passage as a reason to pass thru the Bering sea and into US territorial water. This time, the passage of US Ship is not innocent, is was an intention constant bearing passage. If such passage occur during a country's territorial water (ie, enter or leaving a foreign port) prior permission were to require before such passage were allowed.

The reason why the restriction is excessive is because the US does not believe the area around Triton Island were Chinese territorial water. And hence, a passage without notification were conducted as part of Freedom of Navigation operation.

 

[TaiShang]

No one recognize its CN territorial sea. The whole world will slap sanction on CN if she dare to make trouble for any ships patrolling there

We will do everything in our power to protect trade in the SCS since we are the largest trading nation on the face of the earth.

Lol what is big there about those ships, we lost nothin but Americans civilians had to pay the bill for these long trips , they didn't do that at our expense....who care???

We should encourage US for more inconclusive patrols. Being a reactionary regime, the US will be anything but historical.

See? No word or breath of UNCLOS or international law here. Just raw Chinese "Communist" imperialism. The economy tanks and China will decide to create a war to forestall another confrontation between tanks and students in Tianamen Square.

It is the US that really needs war to legitimize its very existence. Otherwise, Ferguson style uprisings will be much more severe.

Is your love country, Vietnam a fascist state, too? What about Singapore? Let me hear it. LOL

My friend, I call the US a (neo) fascist state as a political designation, not as an insult because fascism is a type of regime like capitalism or communism. Fascism is in fact a rightist ideology of extreme capitalism. Being a police state might or might not render a country fascist; the key component is the corporatist control of the superstructure and excessive use of force at the societal level.

For instance, despite its draconian government, DPRK is not a fascist state.

Considering that the US has become a country of SWATs and excessive display and use of brute force supported and legitimated by the corporatist media, the US falls neatly within the lines of extreme rightist reactionary ideology.

I never call peoples fascist. My focus is on regimes/polities. I have no problem with people. They may hold any opinion they want. I am not here to change their opinion through conviction.

But, I guess, your comments made that person quite uncomfortable, hence, the person brings up an irrelevant issue into the debate.

Under UNCLOS islets that cannot by themselves support human economic life are referred to as "rocks" (Article 121-3) and aren't entitled to an exclusive economic zone. Coastal states' artificial islands built up from such rocks aren't entitled to any territorial waters of their own (Article 60-8).

Taiping is an island.

Besides, China considers the entire Nansha as an island group with 200NM entitlement. If 200NM overlaps with that of others, then we need to do delimitation.

You do not like it? Go fight in the Philippines Army.

I understand and i truly empathize with you in this regard. Let us just continue to interact with Chinese members in a way we would expect. Let us just continue to remind them, or the ones we are discussing with to be respectful. I suppose we should expect their understanding. Actually before i used to clash heads with @Kiss_of_the_Dragon and even @beijingwalker @j20blackdragon , but as of late, using softer words with them have led them to change the way they used to discourse with me. I would encourage the same for you. Trust me, you know how it was like when i used to get into argument(s) with our Sino patriot friends. It wasn't pretty. I suppose it takes effort on both parties to change the way the interaction went.

Just my 5 yen.

That's 5 yen well-spent. LOL.

That's right, my friend. I like to, as far as Japan is considered, concentrate on the mutual strengths rather than exploiting weaknesses/argumentative points. That's due to my understanding of East Asian integration. As long as you do not bring the contentious issues up, I won't be bringing them up, either. That's the dynamic between our countries, as well, right? At least, ideally.

Almost in all accounts, Chinese members simply respond in kind. On the other hand, I am also secretly glad to bring the best out of the member you now interact with. I am now surprised to learn by experience how feasible it is to actually drive someone, who is cool and knowledgable on the surface, into irrational behavior.

 

[rcrmj]

assume, maybe, I understand, I believe````those clueless american kids and or hybrids are really too stubborn to admit their racist attitude and ignorance```

at the end day, China is going to challenge U.S supremacy globally starting with SCS, and we are going to win, as we will keep building islands in SCS, and the U.S cant do no nothing about it``that basement and hybrid nerd is just ranting nonsense, and thats it`

 

[jhungary]

Can you read English?
A liar would always call others lying

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Trains_A_set

Construction and delivery)
The joint venture between Downer EDi Rail and Hitachi was established to design, manufacture and commission the trains.[1] The stainless steel bodies are partially constructed by Changchun Railway Vehicles in China before being shipped to Downer EDI’s Cardiff Locomotive Workshops facility for final assembly, testing and commissioning.[1] The manufacturing facility at Cardiff received an upgrade of over $20 million to cater for the needs of the project.[1] Other infrastructure works included the construction of a the Auburn Maintenance Centre and new substations at various locations around the network.[1

lol I can do this too.

Can you read ENGLISH??

http://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/what-if-australia-had-made-the-waratah-trains-

The cars of the Waratah train are built in China by Changchun Railway Vehicles Co Ltd (CRC), while the driver's and guard's cabins are manufactured at Cardiff in Newcastle by Downer EDI

http://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/what-if-australia-had-made-the-waratah-trains-

Downer will then redesign the interiors to make them easier to assemble in China. But over the life of the project the company will require an extra 770,000 hours of labour in Australia than it had previously planned for

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/trains-built-in-china-face-much-more-work-in-nsw-20110228-1bbs6.html

But instead, the first two Waratah trains used in Sydney are making an 18,000km round trip to China because the company that makes them said it was "more sensible and cost effective".

The trains - which have been used for the past two years to test the $3.6 billion project - need to be fitted out to carry passengers.

They were to be sent from the Waratah facility at Auburn to Downer EDI's manufacturing facility at Cardiff, near Newcastle, where the Chinese-built trains receive their final touches before hitting the rails.

But Downer EDI yesterday admitted it had decided to send both test trains back to Changchun Railway Vehicles Company (CRC) in China.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ing-to-newcastle/story-e6freuzi-1226277605535

The different is, while you quote Wikipedia, which is ambiguous at best, I quote 2 news paper, and one of them is what you claim you read for 10 years, it's hard to understand why you never heard of a story from a news paper you claim you have read for 10 years?

Care to shred some light to the answer?

 

[rcrmj]

the rise of China marks the beginning of Sinosphere's (that includes Mainland China, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Northen Vietnam) world dominance once again```maybe it sounds ideological or Populism, but it is going to happen

 

[Aepsilons]

at the end day, China is going to challenge U.S supremacy globally starting with SCS, and we are going to win, as we will keep building islands in SCS, and the U.S cant do no nothing about it``that basement and hybrid nerd is just ranting nonsense, and thats it`

I must admit, tho i value , in some degree or another, Japan's strategic alliance and defense partnership and research with the United States, there is a part of me that wants to see the rise of China as the pre-eminent global hyper power. It is not that I am a secret Chinese patriot in disguise (as one member described me before, LOL), but in the spirit of East Asian Rise. As one who values , understands, and acknowledges the supremacy of East Asia in context to global affairs and global cultural system(s), I suppose the only way for East Asia to rise to unprecedented pre-eminence and unuestionable superiority is vis-a-vis Chinese methodology systems. In an individual level, the states and economies of Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China can be challenged and even negated through supranational alliance and security systems a la NATO, US-EU, and Washington-centered Mutual Defense Treaties. However, as a cohesive regional entity, a Unified Greater East Asia cannot , shall not, and could not be countered by even the combined power of the West and other regional entities.

So yes, tho in principle I may disagree with the various methodologies utilized by Beijing in regards to communication with Japan , on an overall and holistic recirpocal determinism based apperture, I believe that only through China's ascendancy in the global arena can Japan and South Korea (+ North Korea) can collaborate to undermine western-motivated policies that have inhibited regional political interoperationability.

I believe that on the outside , to appease global security agreements, Japan will give a symbolic nod to American interventionism, but under the surface, Japan will continue with productive intergovernmentalism with China. And the Chinese legation also , i must assume, knows the current liabilities and limitations of Tokyo's position, despite understsanding of Tokyo's wish to calculate with Beijing. So i suppose this can explain carefully politically worded stances on both sides , so as not to isolate the other and yet not failing to understand respective limitations given the post-war restrictivisms enplaced on a certain great power in East Asia.

the rise of China marks the beginning of Sinosphere's (that includes Mainland China, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Northen Vietnam) world dominance once again```maybe it sounds ideological or Populism, but it is going to happen

You literally read my mind as i was typing away on my last post, LOL.

I suppose, it is true, Chinese do know the Japanese Mind. LOL!

 

[jhungary]

S*h*i*t!
The military level of Iraq and Afghanistan are not absolutely match up with China! The China casualties are more more than USA because of without sky advantage in Korea war. The situation of PLA was a little bit better in Vietnam war. The Vietnam would be a "part" of USA if without the support of China at that time. But the China looks a winner in myanmar battle between the PLA special force and USA delta force around in 2003. So far no body reveal any details of the battle between the PLA special force and USA delta force.
The PLA will be a winner in Asian land.
The USA navy will be No.1 in Ocean.
For sky, who knows. I don't want to say J-20/J-31. Just refer the bid of anti sky missile system of Turkey. The PLA HQ-9 seems fine.
I don't believe that USA is confident like before when it meet PLA again.
Do you think the USA casualties will happen like situation which it meet Iraq?

China were never fought in Vietnam, the fact that you still have 1800 kills in Vietnam is amazing. Considered that the US force only operating in South Vietnam, where they are supposedly have 0 Chinese PLA soldier there.

And lol PLA special force against Delta force in 2003, I don't know about you, but the Delta Force was quite busy in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001. Where the heck they found some time to fight with your little PLA in Myanmar?

J-20/J-31 is not even a thing, how many you got? 10?

Yeah, how confident are you when you are in battle? I don't know. I was in battle once 13 years ago. I know how I do, I would imagine Chinese troop to be on the line of "Selling Second Hand rifle, good condition, only dropped once"

 

[Tiqiu]

I was not discussing with you about what went wrong during the construction phase of the the Waratah train. I was challenging your original claim you made in the " japan won Indian HSR bid over China" thread that China made train has a inferior quality, and hence asked you to provide any local news coverage in relation to those window gaps problem you observed from your daily commuting experience. Where are the news to this regard to support your claim?

 

[jhungary]

Listen to me, my friend. These islands will do just fine withstanding the storm. If Taiping Island in the Spratly (about 1/4 the size of our new 7 islands) can withstand the storm, ours will be just fine. Also mfriend, that is why you have to understand that our humanitarian response will always be quicker. Just take an example of the disappearing of MH370. Nobody had a clue where it gone missing because nobody tracks the aircraft since there is no radar in SCS. Well, guess what? After we finish the development of those islands, we'll be able to track any aircraft in SCS and immediately come to aid if anything happens. Think about that for second, my friend.

lol, you are quite funny.

What a load of crap. The Waratah train was YOUR Aussy design and Japan's Hitachi. We are only responsible for the steel structure body, build specification based on your design, and assemble by the Australia. Any internal system is not our problem. This train is your built and design. We are contract to build only the body. STOP blaming everything on us when your company contractors failed to properly inspect and doing a proper assembling. The design was a the flaw of your ally Hitachi, Japan.

So, you are saying the bolt was not fitted correctly, the padding is missing, the windscreen is not fit correctly, and the weak welding and the general delay is all Australian Design fault but not the Chinese Fabrication fault?

It's because the Australian design, you guys fit the wrong bolt on the seat, fit the wrong seat, the panel have gap(Which was by design in mind to have gap in the first place), missed the roof padding, the window is sitting on a different coating, and the Australian design is asking too much so that the Chinese delay giving us our train?? LOL

I was not discussing with you about what went wrong during the construction phase of the the Waratah train. I was challenging your original claim you made in the " japan won Indian HSR bid over China" thread that China made train has a inferior quality, and hence asked you to provide any local news coverage in relation to those window gaps problem you observed from your daily commuting experience. Where are the news to this regard to support your claim?

umm...Isn't delay caused by "refit" due to bad craftsmanship means inferior quality.

If the Chinese train is so superior, why Downer need to rework almost EVERYTHING?

When you come to think of it, what else does a train have? If you have to rework the door, the welding, the seat, the ceiling, the window that's pretty much all the fabrication of the cabin LOL

So you are still saying China did a good fabrication job on the cabin?? Can you find me some evidence to support your claim? Cause I can't find any. All I found is 176 article in Google almost all start with Waratah train have problem or were send back to China to fix it.

Stop pretend to be Aussie please. Nobody think you are even in Australia...

 

[gambit]

My friend, I call the US a (neo) fascist state as a political designation, not as an insult because fascism is a type of regime like capitalism or communism. Fascism is in fact a rightist ideology of extreme capitalism. Being a police state might or might not render a country fascist; the key component is the corporatist control of the superstructure and excessive use of force at the societal level.

Actually...It is not.

Modern fascism can be traced to pre WW II Mussolini, who formulated it from prior sources. Most people wrongly believes Mussolini to be a buffoon but he was actually a very smart guy.

Am not going to derail this thread into ideology/political theories but suffice to say that what you claimed to know of fascism is wrong and shallow at best.

 

[ahtan_china]

China were never fought in Vietnam, the fact that you still have 1800 kills in Vietnam is amazing. Considered that the US force only operating in South Vietnam, where they are supposedly have 0 Chinese PLA soldier there.

And lol PLA special force against Delta force in 2003, I don't know about you, but the Delta Force was quite busy in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001. Where the heck they found some time to fight with your little PLA in Myanmar?

J-20/J-31 is not even a thing, how many you got? 10?

Yeah, how confident are you when you are in battle? I don't know. I was in battle once 13 years ago. I know how I do, I would imagine Chinese troop to be on the line of "Selling Second Hand rifle, good condition, only dropped once"

LOL.
OK. The 0 China PLA solider was over there Vietnam in 1970s as you said. You should shame because USA superpower had no ability to defeat a small small Vietnam.
I don't know you how to get the rank of military professional in PDF.
See you!

 

[Tiqiu]

As an adult, we all know that words are empty. What matters are capability and will.

What China needs is to continue what she is doing. Let the results speak.

Meantime, lets enjoy this news.

Vietnam' illegal construction in China Nanhua reef was washed away by Typhoon “Jasmine"
http://www.inews163.com/2016/02/02/...-reclamation-sand-was-washed-away-140640.html

Typhoon Jasmine moved across China Nanhua reef at Dec 2015

Satellite images of Vietnam illegal construction in China Nanhua reef before and after the typhoon

 

[xunzi]

lol I can do this too.

Can you read ENGLISH??

http://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/what-if-australia-had-made-the-waratah-trains-

The cars of the Waratah train are built in China by Changchun Railway Vehicles Co Ltd (CRC), while the driver's and guard's cabins are manufactured at Cardiff in Newcastle by Downer EDI

http://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/what-if-australia-had-made-the-waratah-trains-

Downer will then redesign the interiors to make them easier to assemble in China. But over the life of the project the company will require an extra 770,000 hours of labour in Australia than it had previously planned for

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/trains-built-in-china-face-much-more-work-in-nsw-20110228-1bbs6.html

But instead, the first two Waratah trains used in Sydney are making an 18,000km round trip to China because the company that makes them said it was "more sensible and cost effective".

The trains - which have been used for the past two years to test the $3.6 billion project - need to be fitted out to carry passengers.

They were to be sent from the Waratah facility at Auburn to Downer EDI's manufacturing facility at Cardiff, near Newcastle, where the Chinese-built trains receive their final touches before hitting the rails.

But Downer EDI yesterday admitted it had decided to send both test trains back to Changchun Railway Vehicles Company (CRC) in China.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ing-to-newcastle/story-e6freuzi-1226277605535

The different is, while you quote Wikipedia, which is ambiguous at best, I quote 2 news paper, and one of them is what you claim you read for 10 years, it's hard to understand why you never heard of a story from a news paper you claim you have read for 10 years?

Care to shred some light to the answer?

I'm going to make this thing very CLEAR again as I notice you don't take responsibility very well for your country poor decision in design and assembling. The whole project was entirely the responsibility of Australia's Downer Rail and Hitachi. To break down what actually responisble for your country rail failure... we must understand the package.

Australia's Downer Rail - responsible for all final assembly, testing, and ensure it meets your country rail standard before it rolls out.

Raicorp - responsible for all software and internal working of the train.

Goninan & Co of Australia - responsible for design and concept of the train.

Halcrow Group of UK - responsible for technical
advice.

THALES of Australia - responsible for internal cable, AC system.

Hitachi - responsible for providing traction system and a major financial provider in a Private-Public partnership.

Knorr Bremse - responsible for Braking System.

Axis Communication of Sweden - responsible for all CCTV, camera, , lightening.

Nightshine Australia - responsible for luminescent arrows signs.

Changchun Railway Vehicles - responsible for the steel body, which built based on the specification and design works from Railcorp & Goninan & Co.

-----

The next time I hear you spill your groundless accusation that this is a Chinese train, I'm going to impose my will upon you. LOL Lastly, my friend. Don't try to build what you can't capable of building a complete system. Let us do the design, manufacturer, and software, then Australia failed HSR wouldn't fail. LOL

 

[jhungary]

I'm going to make this thing very CLEAR again as I notice you don't take responsibility very well for your country poor decision in design and assembling. The whole project was entirely the responsibility of Australia's Downer Rail and Hitachi. To break down what actually responisble for your country rail failure... we must understand the package.

Australia's Downer Rail - responsible for all final assembly, testing, and ensure it meets your country rail standard before it rolls out.

Raicorp - responsible for all software and internal working of the train.

Goninan & Co of Australia - responsible for design and concept of the train.

Halcrow Group of UK - responsible for technical
advice.

THALES of Australia - responsible for internal cable, AC system.

Hitachi - responsible for providing traction system and a major financial provider in a Private-Public partnership.

Knorr Bremse - responsible for Braking System.

Axis Communication of Sweden - responsible for all CCTV, camera, , lightening.

Nightshine Australia - responsible for luminescent arrows signs.

Changchun Railway Vehicles - responsible for the steel body, which built based on the specification and design works from Railcorp & Goninan & Co.

-----

The next time I hear you spill your groundless accusation that this is a Chinese train, I'm going to impose my will upon you. LOL Lastly, my friend. Don't try to build what you can't capable of building a complete system. Let us do the design, manufacturer, and software, then Australia failed HSR wouldn't fail. LOL

Dude, but did I complaint about the train in Braking? CCTV? Luminescent? Design? Technical Advice? Software and testing?

The cabin welding, door assembling, seat bolting and Window assembling IS THE RESPONSIBILITY of CHUNGCHUN Ltd of China, and they SUCKED BIG TIME. Do you want me to complie to you a report on how bad these Chinese make our train? I am going on a Waratah in 4 hours heading to Penrith, you want me to shoot some photo about how bad these door were made and how bad the bolt was bolted? And how bad is the welding job?