The international-law Irony of U.S. Provocations in South China Sea

[ahtan_china]

There are lot more Chinese soldier dies in Korea, why don't we ask them??



Meh, what you need is more coastline, you will never have the warship number the US have, as you only have 1 coast the US have 2, conquer India, or Iran, that will give you an extra coastline, then you can build more, otherwise where are you proposing to put your new warship when all your dock are in used to service the existing one?

Simple maths, no docks, no warship



your country IS INDEED a fascist state, China is a police state, a fact that they don't even try to hide, and EVERY POLICE STATES ARE FASCIST. Your fellow member @TaiShang keep calling US the fascist regime, it's only fair I got to call a REAL police state fascist too.

Or you are trying to denied something your country did not bother to denied in the first place?

For example. China could accept 1 million casualties . Could the USA accept 500 thousand casualties?

 

[jhungary]

My friend, we said many times already. These islands will serve and provide humanitarian assistance so it is important that everybody allows us to develop these islands peacefully so we can provide services to the international community.

As I said, don't expect the Vietnamese or the Phillipines to have any capability to invade those islands any soon. So those are the only two countries most likely to invade those isolated islands. If they have no balls, I fail to see why you are so concern about the defense of those islands from us. Leave those islands development for us to concern. We have a grand plan on how to utilize those islands. I already explained what those plan will be use for. For short, it will form a 3 chains network extending from Hainan to Paracel to Spratly. That cover up about 90% of SCS sea passing lane. So really, I don't expect anyone to pass through SCS without having our eyes on it.

You do know these Island were all lies in the storm collidor that blow from South Pacific and across Philippine, right?

How they would be useful in case of humanitarian crisis when they are most likely the first one to suffer from said crisis?

Beside, that's is neither strategic, nor tactical on what you said.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

lol, I did take it up with them and you were on that convo too with all other mod, and they said you are the one that handle it. And you did nothing, and this is on you, not other.

Meh, I don't care about it anyway, ban me, warn me, this forum is a joke already.

LMAO most Chinese got banned more than you by him...sometime I have impression that he was doing you a favor...I got banned by him few days ago...and I have no complain but consider he granted me few days of vacation .

 

[Zsari]

I think you have a serious misunderstanding on the current situation in the SCS.

The US official position is they are neutral in any dispute, given the reason the US see the whole SCS is a combination of International Water with Exclusive Economic Zone. Therefore the official slogan for the US is to upheld the Freedom of passage within the SCS, as this is, in US eyes, NOT BELONG TO ANYONE. Not China, not Vietnam, not Philippine.

Chinese Stance is 80% of SCS is the extend of Chinese territories. Where Vietnam claim about 50% in the West and Philippine claim is about 40% in the South.

To use your analogy, it's like a big house where the Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino contest the ownership. And US run in and believing the house DOES NOT BELONG TO ANYONE. And while I did not see Vietnamese or Filipino object to the US Stance, China, on the other hand is the one protesting what US have been doing.

Along with most International organisation, US view on SCS is inline with them, which is SCS should be a free ocean, not territories of any parties.

So, who is the aggressor? I don't know, depending on where you stand? in Chinese case, the US, Filipino, and the Vietnamese are the aggressor, in Vietnam eyes, Chinese are the aggressor, and in Philippine Eyes, Chinese is the aggressor.

You are misrepresented the issue. China actually never made any statement on the meaning of the 9 dash line. But from the official response, it appears that the 9 dash line simply envelops the islands within that China is laying claim to, not the whole body of water within that 9 dash line. Case in point that when Indonesia raise the concern of the Natuna island or that the EEZ from the Natuna island might overlap with the 9 dash line, China clarified the issue stating that there is no conflict of claims for there is no island within the 9 dash line that's inside the EEZ from Natuna. Also in regards to US FONOS, China only protested when the patrol enters the 12nm mile zone of China controlled island as violation of sovereignty. And this is another case where the focus is not on traversing SCS but rather trespass of territorial water within 12nm. Remember there is no FON within other country's territorial water, regardless what the country is.

As to your question of who is the aggressor, according to international law the only war that is not classified as a war of aggression is one that is in the defense of one's sovereignty, from either side. So there is no aggressor when it comes to territorial disputes, only claimants, with the only excepting being the nation that has no claim whatsoever.

And finally if you do read th US official statement, the US argues for the absolute right to innocent passage where it repudiates the obligation to notified the coastal state or to abide by the law of the coastal state, which is not consistent with UNCLOS or the interpretation by majority of the nations. But that is actually the only arguement the US government is actually making.

 

[jhungary]

For example. China could accept 1 million casualties . Could the USA accept 500 thousand casualties?

Do you honesly think you can kill 500k American on a war?? lol.

Let's recap shall we?

In WW2, China lost almost 20 millions people for merely holding on to the Japanese. American lost 1 millions fighting 2 wars.

In Korean war, China lost 150,000 with another 400,000 wounded fighting the American, American lost 50,000 and 130,000 wounded.

You honestly think you will only lose 1 million people when you make US lost 500,000? I admire your optimism. We suffer more than 200,000 Casualty fighint in Iraq and Afghanistan Of which about 40000 were killed and 160,000 wounded, Now do you think we can accept 500,000 Casualty?

 

[xunzi]

You do know these Island were all lies in the storm collidor that blow from South Pacific and across Philippine, right?

How they would be useful in case of humanitarian crisis when they are most likely the first one to suffer from said crisis?

Beside, that's is neither strategic, nor tactical on what you said.

There are THOUSANDS of fishing boats fishing in SCS every single day. If a storm would to come, where would they go, my friend? That is my riddle to you. Beside provide a safe haven for fisherman, it will also allow merchant ships to station, resupply, or simply visit to ride out the storm. As I have said, these islands are massive that can house up to 1,000 people once it is completed. It will have everything you can think of, all the goodies stuff that you love, my friend. Hotels, bunkers, coffee shop, restaurants. All equipped with clean nuclear energy and fast internet connection. LOL

 

[sweetgrape]

Meh, what you need is more coastline, you will never have the warship number the US have, as you only have 1 coast the US have 2, conquer India, or Iran, that will give you an extra coastline, then you can build more, otherwise where are you proposing to put your new warship when all your dock are in used to service the existing one?

Simple maths, no docks, no warship

Sound cool, But we don't need that much, we just need these that belong to us, not like USA, see all are your interesting, even don't need sign the Unclos, hehe.

You can keep your numble one large scale warship fleet, we not world police, hehe, we just need the numble can protect ourself, our dock now even can put entired USA warship, need try? hehe.

CN dare not stop US ship patrolling there, so no sanction to u yet .

Who still control Senkaku-TW even they were CN territories ??? US-JP control them till.now.

Hehe, still can't name some country, and answer my question, that's you IQ, hehe.

 

[xunzi]

See? No word or breath of UNCLOS or international law here. Just raw Chinese "Communist" imperialism. The economy tanks and China will decide to create a war to forestall another confrontation between tanks and students in Tianamen Square.

LMAO, this is why I always love my American friend. Remember, your duty is to protect international communities and that include protecting us from the Philippines pirate in SCS. If you can't do that, I'm afraid we have to depend on ourselves.

 

[jhungary]

You are misrepresented the issue. China actually never made any statement on the meaning of the 9 dash line. But from the official response, it appears that the 9 dash line simply envelops the islands within that China is laying claim to, not the whole body of water within that 9 dash line. Case in point that when Indonesia raise the concern of the Natuna island or that the EEZ from the Natuna island might overlap with the 9 dash line, China clarified the issue stating that there is no conflict of claims for there is no island within the 9 dash line that's inside the EEZ from Natuna.

No, you are the one misrepresented with the issue here. 9 Point line is what China used to claim the Island and their surrounding water as territorial water, I never did say China claim the whole SCS to begin with, I said China claim about 80% of South China Seas based on the claim submitted by the 9 dots line.

Problem is, no one, other than China, recognized the 9 dots line and the claim propelling it, hence, if you look at it in the eyes of Chinese government, your claim seems logical simply because it is your claim, but to other, it is not logically. And when it was about actual borders, you will need to know international border is not something you claim it to be, but also they were to be respected by other country, and in this case, no one, other than China respecting the "Chinese Border" in the SCS.

Also in regards to US FONOS, China only protested when the patrol enters the 12nm mile zone of China controlled island as violation of sovereignty. And this is another case where the focus is not on traversing SCS but rather trespass of territorial water within 12nm. Remember there is no FON within other country's territorial water, regardless what the country is.

FON ops were a way for US to challenge the "Limited" navigation right one claims, it was a direct challenge based on the US own view and definition of international water and airways. And you are assuming what you control is what you own, which is not the case for the US, hence what you think it was US violating the 12 nm limit of your territorial water in Triton, the US does not think it is, as US position on Triton island is, they are located in the international water, then of course they have the right of way to enter any sea lane they please as with their own definition of "international water"

As to your question of who is the aggressor, according to international law the only war that is not classified as a war of aggression is one that is in the defense of one's sovereignty, from either side. So there is no aggressor when it comes to territorial disputes, only claimants, with the only excepting being the nation that has no claim whatsoever.

There are no aggressor, because if you look at it in a grand scheme of things, either EVERYONE is an aggressor in the case of a dispute, or no one is the aggressor in the case of dispute, the problem is, what you see is a lot different than what the Vietnamese see, or what the American sees. And hence this is what I said, either everyone is an aggressor, or none of them are a aggressor

And finally if you do read th US official statement, the US argues for the absolute right to innocent passage where it repudiates the obligation to notified the coastal state or to abide by the law of the coastal state, which is not consistent with UNCLOS or the interpretation by majority of the nations. But that is actually the only arguement the US government is actually making.

Nope, that's because in term of US Navy, they are not located within 12 nm of Chinese coast. nor was it located within 12 nm of extended territorial water of China, hence there were never a requirement to notify the coastal state or abide to the law of the coastal state, as simply, there were no coastal state to begin with.

There are THOUSANDS of fishing boats fishing in SCS every single day. If a storm would to come, where would they go, my friend? That is my riddle to you. Beside provide a safe haven for fisherman, it will also allow merchant ships to station, resupply, or simply visit to ride out the storm. As I have said, these islands are massive that can house up to 1,000 people once it is completed. It will have everything you can think of, all the goodies stuff that you love, my friend. Hotels, bunkers, coffee shop, restaurants. All equipped with clean nuclear energy and fast internet connection. LOL

As I said, if there were storm in the region, they were from the SCS to begin with, the Island in the SCS would be the one need humanitarian response, not the one giving it.

Sound cool, But we don't need that much, we just need these that belong to us, not like USA, see all are your interesting, even don't need sign the Unclos, hehe.

You can keep your numble one large scale warship fleet, we not world police, hehe, we just need the numble can protect ourself, our dock now even can put entired USA warship, need try? hehe.

Honestly?

I don't get a single word you say.......

 

[Aepsilons]

Let's calm down, folks. Be the silent snowflake falling , gliding, to the earth as the wind flutters th leaves about. The sun sets.

 

[jhungary]

LMAO most Chinese got banned more than you by him...sometime I have impression that he was doing you a favor...I got banned by him few days ago...and I have no complain but consider he granted me few days of vacation .

meh, as I said, I don't really care. If most Chinese were banned more than one by him, that probably only mean there are even more Chinese trolling out there, not that he did a good job.

Let's calm down, folks. Be the silent snowflake falling , gliding, to the earth as the wind flutters th leaves about. The sun sets.

People created a hot topic, then they will expect a hot discussion, Tried my best to keep it low down, but some people don't want to play nice, and if they don't want to play nice, then why should I?

 

[Aepsilons]

People created a hot topic, then they will expect a hot discussion, Tried my best to keep it low down, but some people don't want to play nice, and if they don't want to play nice, then why should I?

Well its fine if you and some other members have opposing views, the exchange is great. Just hopefully everyone doesn't resort to name calling and all that kind of banter. You're a former soldier, bro, you know how the standards we are to uphold. Just keep the cool.

Just saying.

 

[jhungary]

Well its fine if you and some other members have opposing views, the exchange is great. Just hopefully everyone doesn't resort to name calling and all that kind of banter. You're a former soldier, bro, you know how the standards we are to uphold. Just keep the cool.

Just saying.

Well, I'll admit I did a lot of dodgy thing when I was serving, that does not mean I am not capable to doing good. Problem is, from where I see it, sometime you need to go in dirty before you can caught sunlight out of it. I had been patient all these years and try not to go out of the line, but quite honestly, people in this forum, and people running these forum do not really care what this forum become, so I am gonna let it all out.

I am not going to complaint to the moderator or administration anymore, just let it rot, I am gonna take the @gambit stance, you troll me, I troll you back. They can warn me, ban me, take my title, I don't really care, as far as I concern, they don't care about the quality of this forum, Why should I?

Title are only good if you want to contribute to this forum positively, but seeing more people willing to turn this forum into sunday market, what's good if you keep the title and contribute when there are 10 more people throwing insult at your way and you can do nothing to stop it? Why not just go join in an have some fun? I mean, if you can't beat it, join it.

 

[Solomon2]

...this is another case where the focus is not on traversing SCS but rather trespass of territorial water within 12nm. Remember there is no FON within other country's territorial water, regardless what the country is.

Under UNCLOS islets that cannot by themselves support human economic life are referred to as "rocks" (Article 121-3) and aren't entitled to an exclusive economic zone. Coastal states' artificial islands built up from such rocks aren't entitled to any territorial waters of their own (Article 60-8).

 

[Aepsilons]

Well, I'll admit I did a lot of dodgy thing when I was serving, that does not mean I am not capable to doing good. Problem is, from where I see it, sometime you need to go and do dirty before you can caught sunlight out of it. I had been patient all these years and try not to go out of the line, but quite honestly, people in this forum, and people running these forum do not really care what this forum become, so I am gonna let it all out.

I am not going to complaint to the moderator or administration anymore, just let it rot, I am gonna take the @gambit stance, you troll me, I troll you back. They can warn me, ban me, take my title, I don't really care, as far as I concern, they don't care about the quality of this forum, Why should I?

Title are only good if you want to contribute to this forum positively, but seeing more people willing to turn this forum into sunday market, what's good if you keep the title and contribute when there are 10 more people throwing insult at your way and you can do nothing to stop it? Why not just go join in an have some fun? I mean, if you can't beat it, join it.

Calm down, brother. Your hot headed Cantonese blood is coming out now, lol. Anyways, just stay cool. Take middle ground.