The Indian within

[PoKeMon]

It's a tactic to get around secularist safeguards in the constitution.

If Hinduism is a cultural concept, not a religious one, then it becomes legitimate to teach parts of it in school and force all students to learn it..

To be frank, there is nothing in hinduism to learn. If I will tell you hinduism, you will say "Isn't it common sense and the way one human should behave".

The same is true with most religions, its just hinduism is not binding and its easy on us to practice. Rest demands more.

 

[Armstrong]

Lol calm down mate! Am confused, are we even reading the same article! I understood what you said in your first post, and thats why I said that the author has addressed those issues in his article.

What am I missing here.

The fact that the 'Eastern Part' of Pakistan isn't ethnically or linguistically homogeneous by a long shot because if by Eastern Parts of Pakistan he means 'Punjab' & 'Sindh' then :

Punjab is further divided into Southern, Central, Northern & Western Punjab!

The Southern parts of Punjab is Saraiki speaking which has its own Culture & there are Baluch majority regions therein - None of which has any cultural or linguistic similarities with Indian Punjab....only the outlying desert areas that pepper parts of Southern Punjab & Sindh have some similarities with Rajasthan because they're close to the Border but then they've got next to no population !

The Northern parts of Punjab is Hindko, Gojri, Pahari & Potowhari speaking which has its own culture & is linguistically close to either Western Pakistan or Kashmir (Which is not India )

The Western parts of Punjab is Hindko & Pashto speaking which are again culturally & linguistically similar to Western Pakistan !

All you're left with is Central Punjab which is Punjabi speaking but even Central Punjab is multi-ethnic & linguistic & even the Punjabi Muslims before the Partition were culturally & linguistically similar but different that their Sikh or Hindu Counterparts so there really isn't an Indian within them or a Pakistani within their Sikh & Hindu counterparts - No one celebrates any of the Cultural Festivals of Indian Punjab here & even the Language has evolved differently !

How does one 'part' of Punjab equal the whole of 'Eastern Parts of Pakistan' is something that continues to confound me !

And down South you've got Sindh which is culturally similar to the Saraiki Belt & the Baluch Belt on its North & its West - It isn't culturally similar to the adjoining Indian State of Gujrat but only to the Sindhi Hindus who immigrated there at the time of the Partition !

I have no qualms whatsoever over what is common between the two of us but the author makes it look as if, in his own words, there is an India within Pakistan & a Pakistani within India when that is not so !

jury is still out as to how much pakistan has evolved its own cultural identity. You might assert so because you have to justify to yourself why the country was made in the first place and for that you need to prove to yourself you are different from others.
Thats your issue (how you fight with your idenity) and I will leave you to that.
In the meantime I would declare afgans as my own people...

I don't have to justify sh*t - I wanted a separate country....I got it & I happy for it !

You wanted a separate country - You got it.....the Brits don't go about asking 'Justify' it ?

 

[EyanKhan]

AS India and Pakistan struggle to resolve their political differences presently, there is an India/Pakistan-related struggle going on inside me too.

My inner instincts tell me that a big part of my cultural heritage relates to India. However, Pakistani ideologues and even some close relatives tell me that it is unpatriotic to assert any cultural attachment with India due to Pakistan’s political differences with that country. Is it possible for a Pakistani to separate cultural and political issues and simultaneously maintain cultural affinity but political differences with India?

One must first analyse the extent of similarity between Indian and Pakistani cultures. Culture refers to societal ideas, customs and social behaviours and encapsulates the domains of art, dress, language, food, family structures, religious practices, festivals, traditions, values etc. There is admittedly enormous cultural diversity within both countries and sweeping comparisons between the two cultures are inappropriate.

However, it is also true that there is large similarity in the cultures of Pakistan’s eastern regions (Sindh, Punjab and Azad Kashmir) and India’s northern and western regions along most cultural aspects mentioned above, eg art and dress. While Pakistanis living in the country’s western regions obviously have more cultural linkages with Pakistan’s western neighbours (eg Afghanistan), Pakistan’s eastern regions host the bulk of the population. Thus, for the majority of Pakistanis, the large cultural overlap with India is undeniable.

Religion obviously is the main realm of exception to this cultural similarity and since it influences many traditions, there are differences too between Indian and Pakistani cultures. Additionally, over the last three decades, middle-class cultural values in the two countries have become more dissimilar.

Parts of the Pakistani middle class have unfortunately become more conservative, xenophobic and intolerant. Conversely, the Indian middle class has become more liberal and Westernised. This, positively, has meant greater tolerance for diversity but also, negatively, greater focus on materialism within Indian society in contrast to the high degree of frugality that Indian middle classes practiced traditionally.

The most visible manifestation of this increasing difference in values is in movies and the media. Indian movies are now increasingly exploring themes, eg in movies such as Bombay Talkies, which can barely be mentioned even in liberal Pakistani newspapers. On the negative side, it means that it is often difficult now to watch Indian movies with family.

However, despite these differences, the overall cultural similarities are undeniable. Other than Muslim-majority Bangladesh (which itself shares strong cultural patterns with India), there is no other country with which the majority of Pakistanis share such strong cultural similarities.

Despite religious differences, I and a lot of other expatriate Pakistanis that I know usually find it easier to relate with expatriate Indians due to the strong linguistic and cultural linkages than with Muslims or non-Muslims from Africa, the Middle East and Far East. Given these cultural similarities, it does not make sense to disown such a large part of one’s cultural legacy, especially one to which Muslims contributed so much over the centuries before Partition.

Trying to disown such a large part of one’s cultural legacy can only have negative repercussions for the individual and collective national psyche. One must have the self-confidence and a sense of balance to be able to assert cultural similarities with India without feeling ashamed, guilty or unpatriotic.

Thus, over the last few decades, India has arguably become the second largest exporter of culture (through the export of its movies, music, food, etc) in the world after the US. I must admit that whenever I see such Indian cultural artefacts being appreciated globally, in places as diverse as Addis Ababa, Vietnam and Israel, I cannot help feeling some sense of pride and personal connection too.

However, despite strongly voicing my cultural affinity with India, politically I condemn Indian atrocities in Kashmir, just as I condemn Pakistani atrocities in Balochistan and the former East Pakistan, even though my cultural affinity with Pakistan is obviously even stronger than that with India.

Nor is this trend to mix politics and culture restricted to Pakistani ideologues only. Indian hawks maintain similar views and their views influence broader society. Yet Indian movies portray Islam with respect and often on an equal footing with Hinduism. In contrast, it is rare to see Pakistani movies showing respect and positivity towards Hinduism.

However, when it comes to Pakistan, Indian movies are largely silent or portray Pakistan negatively even though Pakistan is probably the biggest market for them after India.

One can only hope that the strong cultural similarities between the two countries can help them overcome their political differences one day. For the moment, politics is trumping culture.

The Indian within - DAWN.COM

@@chak de INDIA @@jarves @@EyanKhan @@Rahil khan @@BDforever @@Roybot @@Dem!god @@cheekybird
@@DRAY

and whomsoever it may concern....

A good article indeed
Had you simple given us Kashmir there wouldn't be this mess but we would be friends

I just want to throw my 2 cents here on the political situation of India, Pakistan and the whole South Asia as a whole.
Is political unification of these countries possible?
Sounds quite far fetched doesn't it? but its not as far fetched as much as we think it to be.
Albeit in the current situation it is not possible but what about the future. All of the South Asian countries need education, not just education but "Quality education"(which only comes by educating oneself by yourself).We all have things we need to sort out internally. Once we are educated enough i.e the muslims are know the Hindus weren't as bad as they were made out to be .For the hindus/buddhists etc that all the muslim Rulers weren't as bad as they were made out to be.
Look at Europe they too had/have centuries of bloodshed in their past but once they were developed and educated , they say a common aim and a goal , their own advancement which could only come by banding together i.e The EU.
The same can happen for south Asia either as Confederate states of South asia , a union etc (but not Akhand Bharat ) , while the respective countries are maintained.
this may sound unrealistic but to me it seems quite possible in the future
But as i said we must focus on our internal problems first.

 

[Indischer]

Six pages and the discussion is still civil and courteous? What kind of sorcery is this?

@Armstrong I always get the feeling that if we South Indians had got a separate country for ourselves, we'd have more points to project differences in culture, language and customs than an average Pakistani in comparison with an average North Indian.

 

[EyanKhan]

AS India and Pakistan struggle to resolve their political differences presently, there is an India/Pakistan-related struggle going on inside me too.

My inner instincts tell me that a big part of my cultural heritage relates to India. However, Pakistani ideologues and even some close relatives tell me that it is unpatriotic to assert any cultural attachment with India due to Pakistan’s political differences with that country. Is it possible for a Pakistani to separate cultural and political issues and simultaneously maintain cultural affinity but political differences with India?

One must first analyse the extent of similarity between Indian and Pakistani cultures. Culture refers to societal ideas, customs and social behaviours and encapsulates the domains of art, dress, language, food, family structures, religious practices, festivals, traditions, values etc. There is admittedly enormous cultural diversity within both countries and sweeping comparisons between the two cultures are inappropriate.

However, it is also true that there is large similarity in the cultures of Pakistan’s eastern regions (Sindh, Punjab and Azad Kashmir) and India’s northern and western regions along most cultural aspects mentioned above, eg art and dress. While Pakistanis living in the country’s western regions obviously have more cultural linkages with Pakistan’s western neighbours (eg Afghanistan), Pakistan’s eastern regions host the bulk of the population. Thus, for the majority of Pakistanis, the large cultural overlap with India is undeniable.

Religion obviously is the main realm of exception to this cultural similarity and since it influences many traditions, there are differences too between Indian and Pakistani cultures. Additionally, over the last three decades, middle-class cultural values in the two countries have become more dissimilar.

Parts of the Pakistani middle class have unfortunately become more conservative, xenophobic and intolerant. Conversely, the Indian middle class has become more liberal and Westernised. This, positively, has meant greater tolerance for diversity but also, negatively, greater focus on materialism within Indian society in contrast to the high degree of frugality that Indian middle classes practiced traditionally.

The most visible manifestation of this increasing difference in values is in movies and the media. Indian movies are now increasingly exploring themes, eg in movies such as Bombay Talkies, which can barely be mentioned even in liberal Pakistani newspapers. On the negative side, it means that it is often difficult now to watch Indian movies with family.

However, despite these differences, the overall cultural similarities are undeniable. Other than Muslim-majority Bangladesh (which itself shares strong cultural patterns with India), there is no other country with which the majority of Pakistanis share such strong cultural similarities.

Despite religious differences, I and a lot of other expatriate Pakistanis that I know usually find it easier to relate with expatriate Indians due to the strong linguistic and cultural linkages than with Muslims or non-Muslims from Africa, the Middle East and Far East. Given these cultural similarities, it does not make sense to disown such a large part of one’s cultural legacy, especially one to which Muslims contributed so much over the centuries before Partition.

Trying to disown such a large part of one’s cultural legacy can only have negative repercussions for the individual and collective national psyche. One must have the self-confidence and a sense of balance to be able to assert cultural similarities with India without feeling ashamed, guilty or unpatriotic.

Thus, over the last few decades, India has arguably become the second largest exporter of culture (through the export of its movies, music, food, etc) in the world after the US. I must admit that whenever I see such Indian cultural artefacts being appreciated globally, in places as diverse as Addis Ababa, Vietnam and Israel, I cannot help feeling some sense of pride and personal connection too.

However, despite strongly voicing my cultural affinity with India, politically I condemn Indian atrocities in Kashmir, just as I condemn Pakistani atrocities in Balochistan and the former East Pakistan, even though my cultural affinity with Pakistan is obviously even stronger than that with India.

Nor is this trend to mix politics and culture restricted to Pakistani ideologues only. Indian hawks maintain similar views and their views influence broader society. Yet Indian movies portray Islam with respect and often on an equal footing with Hinduism. In contrast, it is rare to see Pakistani movies showing respect and positivity towards Hinduism.

However, when it comes to Pakistan, Indian movies are largely silent or portray Pakistan negatively even though Pakistan is probably the biggest market for them after India.

One can only hope that the strong cultural similarities between the two countries can help them overcome their political differences one day. For the moment, politics is trumping culture.

The Indian within - DAWN.COM

@chak de INDIA @jarves @EyanKhan @Rahil khan @BDforever @Roybot @Dem!god @cheekybird
@DRAY
and whomsoever it may concern....

AS India and Pakistan struggle to resolve their political differences presently, there is an India/Pakistan-related struggle going on inside me too.

My inner instincts tell me that a big part of my cultural heritage relates to India. However, Pakistani ideologues and even some close relatives tell me that it is unpatriotic to assert any cultural attachment with India due to Pakistan’s political differences with that country. Is it possible for a Pakistani to separate cultural and political issues and simultaneously maintain cultural affinity but political differences with India?

One must first analyse the extent of similarity between Indian and Pakistani cultures. Culture refers to societal ideas, customs and social behaviours and encapsulates the domains of art, dress, language, food, family structures, religious practices, festivals, traditions, values etc. There is admittedly enormous cultural diversity within both countries and sweeping comparisons between the two cultures are inappropriate.

However, it is also true that there is large similarity in the cultures of Pakistan’s eastern regions (Sindh, Punjab and Azad Kashmir) and India’s northern and western regions along most cultural aspects mentioned above, eg art and dress. While Pakistanis living in the country’s western regions obviously have more cultural linkages with Pakistan’s western neighbours (eg Afghanistan), Pakistan’s eastern regions host the bulk of the population. Thus, for the majority of Pakistanis, the large cultural overlap with India is undeniable.

Religion obviously is the main realm of exception to this cultural similarity and since it influences many traditions, there are differences too between Indian and Pakistani cultures. Additionally, over the last three decades, middle-class cultural values in the two countries have become more dissimilar.

Parts of the Pakistani middle class have unfortunately become more conservative, xenophobic and intolerant. Conversely, the Indian middle class has become more liberal and Westernised. This, positively, has meant greater tolerance for diversity but also, negatively, greater focus on materialism within Indian society in contrast to the high degree of frugality that Indian middle classes practiced traditionally.

The most visible manifestation of this increasing difference in values is in movies and the media. Indian movies are now increasingly exploring themes, eg in movies such as Bombay Talkies, which can barely be mentioned even in liberal Pakistani newspapers. On the negative side, it means that it is often difficult now to watch Indian movies with family.

However, despite these differences, the overall cultural similarities are undeniable. Other than Muslim-majority Bangladesh (which itself shares strong cultural patterns with India), there is no other country with which the majority of Pakistanis share such strong cultural similarities.

Despite religious differences, I and a lot of other expatriate Pakistanis that I know usually find it easier to relate with expatriate Indians due to the strong linguistic and cultural linkages than with Muslims or non-Muslims from Africa, the Middle East and Far East. Given these cultural similarities, it does not make sense to disown such a large part of one’s cultural legacy, especially one to which Muslims contributed so much over the centuries before Partition.

Trying to disown such a large part of one’s cultural legacy can only have negative repercussions for the individual and collective national psyche. One must have the self-confidence and a sense of balance to be able to assert cultural similarities with India without feeling ashamed, guilty or unpatriotic.

Thus, over the last few decades, India has arguably become the second largest exporter of culture (through the export of its movies, music, food, etc) in the world after the US. I must admit that whenever I see such Indian cultural artefacts being appreciated globally, in places as diverse as Addis Ababa, Vietnam and Israel, I cannot help feeling some sense of pride and personal connection too.

However, despite strongly voicing my cultural affinity with India, politically I condemn Indian atrocities in Kashmir, just as I condemn Pakistani atrocities in Balochistan and the former East Pakistan, even though my cultural affinity with Pakistan is obviously even stronger than that with India.

Nor is this trend to mix politics and culture restricted to Pakistani ideologues only. Indian hawks maintain similar views and their views influence broader society. Yet Indian movies portray Islam with respect and often on an equal footing with Hinduism. In contrast, it is rare to see Pakistani movies showing respect and positivity towards Hinduism.

However, when it comes to Pakistan, Indian movies are largely silent or portray Pakistan negatively even though Pakistan is probably the biggest market for them after India.

One can only hope that the strong cultural similarities between the two countries can help them overcome their political differences one day. For the moment, politics is trumping culture.

The Indian within - DAWN.COM

@chak de INDIA @jarves @EyanKhan @Rahil khan @BDforever @Roybot @Dem!god @cheekybird
@DRAY
and whomsoever it may concern....

A good article indeed
Had you simple given us Kashmir there wouldn't be this mess but we would be friends

I just want to throw my 2 cents here on the political situation of India, Pakistan and the whole South Asia as a whole.
Is political unification of these countries possible?
Sounds quite far fetched doesn't it? but its not as far fetched as much as we think it to be.
Albeit in the current situation it is not possible but what about the future. All of the South Asian countries need education, not just education but "Quality education"(which only comes by educating oneself by yourself).We all have things we need to sort out internally. Once we are educated enough i.e the muslims are know the Hindus weren't as bad as they were made out to be .For the hindus/buddhists etc that all the muslim Rulers weren't as bad as they were made out to be.
Look at Europe they too had/have centuries of bloodshed in their past but once they were developed and educated , they say a common aim and a goal , their own advancement which could only come by banding together i.e The EU.
The same can happen for south Asia either as Confederate states of South asia , a union etc (but not Akhand Bharat ) , while the respective countries are maintained.
this may sound unrealistic but to me it seems quite possible in the future
But as i said we must focus on our internal problems first.

 

[45'22']

A good article indeed
Had you simple given us Kashmir there wouldn't be this mess but we would be friends

I just want to throw my 2 cents here on the political situation of India, Pakistan and the whole South Asia as a whole.
Is political unification of these countries possible?
Sounds quite far fetched doesn't it? but its not as far fetched as much as we think it to be.
Albeit in the current situation it is not possible but what about the future. All of the South Asian countries need education, not just education but "Quality education"(which only comes by educating oneself by yourself).We all have things we need to sort out internally. Once we are educated enough i.e the muslims are know the Hindus weren't as bad as they were made out to be .For the hindus/buddhists etc that all the muslim Rulers weren't as bad as they were made out to be.
Look at Europe they too had/have centuries of bloodshed in their past but once they were developed and educated , they say a common aim and a goal , their own advancement which could only come by banding together i.e The EU.
The same can happen for south Asia either as Confederate states of South asia , a union etc (but not Akhand Bharat ) , while the respective countries are maintained.
this may sound unrealistic but to me it seems quite possible in the future
But as i said we must focus on our internal problems first.

Akhand Bharat sounds great

 

[EyanKhan]

Akhand Bharat sounds great

you think that ,We'll think of it as Greater Pakistan

 

[45'22']

Six pages and the discussion is still civil and courteous? What kind of sorcery is this?

@Armstrong I always get the feeling that if we South Indians had got a separate country for ourselves, we'd have more points to project differences in culture, language and customs than an average Pakistani in comparison with an average North Indian.

ye thread mera hai
trolling is banned here

 

[Robinhood Pandey]

Six pages and the discussion is still civil and courteous? What kind of sorcery is this?

@Armstrong I always get the feeling that if we South Indians had got a separate country for ourselves, we'd have more points to project differences in culture, language and customs than an average Pakistani in comparison with an average North Indian.

Mera BIMARU bhai hoke aisi wish ?

i hate you

 

[Chronos]

A good article indeed
Had you simple given us Kashmir there wouldn't be this mess but we would be friends

I just want to throw my 2 cents here on the political situation of India, Pakistan and the whole South Asia as a whole.
Is political unification of these countries possible?
Sounds quite far fetched doesn't it? but its not as far fetched as much as we think it to be.
Albeit in the current situation it is not possible but what about the future. All of the South Asian countries need education, not just education but "Quality education"(which only comes by educating oneself by yourself).We all have things we need to sort out internally. Once we are educated enough i.e the muslims are know the Hindus weren't as bad as they were made out to be .For the hindus/buddhists etc that all the muslim Rulers weren't as bad as they were made out to be.
Look at Europe they too had/have centuries of bloodshed in their past but once they were developed and educated , they say a common aim and a goal , their own advancement which could only come by banding together i.e The EU.
The same can happen for south Asia either as Confederate states of South asia , a union etc (but not Akhand Bharat ) , while the respective countries are maintained.
this may sound unrealistic but to me it seems quite possible in the future
But as i said we must focus on our internal problems first.

@EyanKhan

Hi man I think we got off on the wrong foot before. But I have read your posts a few times and your posts are indeed funny and bereft of Jingoist bile.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

India and Pakistan have taken divergent paths since independence. Similarities though prominent now, have and will continue to diminish with time. I can't afford to be nostalgic.

 

[45'22']

you think that ,We'll think of it as Greater Pakistan

lets not derail this thread

 

[livingdead]

I don't have to justify sh*t - I wanted a separate country....I got it & I happy for it !

You wanted a separate country - You got it.....the Brits don't go about asking 'Justify' it ?

i dont need to justify because I am very comfortable with multiple layers of identity ..
and unlike you I am not really hung up on my identity, my identity does not drive my thought or action( through a very conscious effort)

 

[Chronos]

Six pages and the discussion is still civil and courteous? What kind of sorcery is this?

@Armstrong I always get the feeling that if we South Indians had got a separate country for ourselves, we'd have more points to project differences in culture, language and customs than an average Pakistani in comparison with an average North Indian.

Yush.

Dravida Desam for the Win!

 

[Robinhood Pandey]

Had you simple given us Kashmir there wouldn't be this mess but we would be friends

Chal bhai , aage badh !!

Ameer aadmi dekha nahi or maangna shuru ( j/k)