The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[dadeechi]

Hope India provides more of such occasions for Pakistan to celebrate....

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

picture abhi baaki hai. yeh toh bas shuruaat hai (Translation - This is end of the beginning and not the end itself. More follow-on deals to come)

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

RAFALEs would beat any comparable fighter on Life Cycle Costing (LCC).

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

Like what? J-20 & J-31? I would take a well oiled 4.5 gen fighter to a half cooked 5th gen fighter. Though SU-35s and Eurofighter Typhoon would be competitive. India should and would use all power at its disposal to prevent these procurements by Pakistan.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

RAFALEs would enhance Indian indigenous effort through the renewed interest in the proposed partnership on Kaveri engine program.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

Make in India (MII) would include offsets from RAFALEs, FGFAs, F-16s & Gripens etc.. Its not a one program take all scheme.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

May be but we still have deals with BAE like M777 howitzer..

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

Better late than never.. The incumbent government did a splendid job in resurrecting the dead deal and successfully closing it in one and half years.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

May or may not happen but what is important is that the much maligned Bofors guns saved the day for India during Kargil and without any doubt RAFALEs will play their role when India needs them.

 

[SrNair]

Induction of Rafael is not that bad as India already operate french platform, Mirage. But it is nevertheless a new platform which requires training of service-staff, pilots and then integration of armament, development of offensive / defensive strategies in collaboration with what India already has. 36 Jets also mean India can only keep them at one or two airbases only and its strategic scattering on multiple airports wouldn't be possible.

In my opinion, a war with India is due within next 2 years. My question here is that will India be able to absorb Rafael within this time-frame + would its pilots have developed skills to use this platform effectively?

Induction of Rafael is not that bad as India already operate french platform, Mirage. But it is nevertheless a new platform which requires training of service-staff, pilots and then integration of armament, development of offensive / defensive strategies in collaboration with what India already has. 36 Jets also mean India can only keep them at one or two airbases only and its strategic scattering on multiple airports wouldn't be possible.

In my opinion, a war with India is due within next 2 years. My question here is that will India be able to absorb Rafael within this time-frame + would its pilots have developed skills to use this platform effectively?

If we can buy a fighter for 8 billion$ we know how to maintain it .That is none of your concern.



On topic:All those points are really struggling to keep a professional standard.
You know why ,some its claims are quite funny.
Rafale is for replacing Mig 27.36 is first slot ,rest will ordered if we want .And they will be there as the successors of Mirage in future.
Our procurment is way sophisticated.
Tejas will replace Mig 21 and will produce in hugenumbers.
Professional also forget that Rafale is twin engine medium fighter and Tejas is a single engine fighter

Induction of Rafael is not that bad as India already operate french platform, Mirage. But it is nevertheless a new platform which requires training of service-staff, pilots and then integration of armament, development of offensive / defensive strategies in collaboration with what India already has. 36 Jets also mean India can only keep them at one or two airbases only and its strategic scattering on multiple airports wouldn't be possible.

In my opinion, a war with India is due within next 2 years. My question here is that will India be able to absorb Rafael within this time-frame + would its pilots have developed skills to use this platform effectively?

Induction of Rafael is not that bad as India already operate french platform, Mirage. But it is nevertheless a new platform which requires training of service-staff, pilots and then integration of armament, development of offensive / defensive strategies in collaboration with what India already has. 36 Jets also mean India can only keep them at one or two airbases only and its strategic scattering on multiple airports wouldn't be possible.

In my opinion, a war with India is due within next 2 years. My question here is that will India be able to absorb Rafael within this time-frame + would its pilots have developed skills to use this platform effectively?

If we can buy a fighter for 8 billion$ we know how to maintain it .That is none of your concern.



On topic:All those points are really struggling to keep a professional standard.
You know why ,some its claims are quite funny.
Rafale is for replacing Mig 27.36 is first slot ,rest will ordered if we want .And they will be there as the successors of Mirage in future.
Our procurment is way sophisticated.
Tejas will replace Mig 21 and will produce in hugenumbers.
Professional also forget that Rafale is twin engine medium fighter and Tejas is a single engine fighter

 

[Chauvinist]

Congratulations for the deal..But question is..From where IAF would buy pilots to fly the Rafales??

 

[shah1398]

competitive procurements in the region.

This is the main point I am interesting in. This very deal has paved way for PAF to convince to GoP to release funds to induct a new aircraft of almost similar capabilities or induct any possible potent counter to this very induction. Nonetheless I fully agree with all other points.

 

[xyxmt]

Grapes growing on a tree. Also as a kid I always wondered why a fox would want to eat grapes.

she is vegetrian India Fox

 

[Rupeshkumar]

I see, you mean they shall have J20.

Who said anything about the Rafale being bad, i said it's a potent system . The F-16 indeed did first fly over 40 years ago but don't forget say Pakistan has been operating this system for over 30 years also.
My point is the Rafale was selected over three years ago, by now it should have been operational in squadron service with IAF....but that will not be the case for say at least four years.


We may or may not but you can be sure China will have them. !!!

Not sure about China, but surely pakistan wont have anything to counter it by 2020, even if you start the process today...

 

[Sine Nomine]

Just months ago, PAF could not afford to buy 8 x F-16.
Don't think a lot have changed since then.

Fact is that Pakistan needs to build an economy, and take care of its citizens,
more than trying to compete with an economy that almost dwarves Yours.

Well some day when people's in your country were told Pakistan was making an a-bomb peoples in your country said same.We are taking care of it's citizens really good,you need not to worry about it.

 

[graphican]

If we can buy a fighter for 8 billion$ we know how to maintain it .That is none of your concern.



On topic:All those points are really struggling to keep a professional standard.
You know why ,some its claims are quite funny.
Rafale is for replacing Mig 27.36 is first slot ,rest will ordered if we want .And they will be there as the successors of Mirage in future.
Our procurment is way sophisticated.
Tejas will replace Mig 21 and will produce in hugenumbers.
Professional also forget that Rafale is twin engine medium fighter and Tejas is a single engine fighter




If we can buy a fighter for 8 billion$ we know how to maintain it .That is none of your concern.



On topic:All those points are really struggling to keep a professional standard.
You know why ,some its claims are quite funny.
Rafale is for replacing Mig 27.36 is first slot ,rest will ordered if we want .And they will be there as the successors of Mirage in future.
Our procurment is way sophisticated.
Tejas will replace Mig 21 and will produce in hugenumbers.
Professional also forget that Rafale is twin engine medium fighter and Tejas is a single engine fighter

Mr. Nair your hands are shaking well before time. You've quoted my message 4 times. Don't worry, if there is ever an Pakistan-India war, Pakistan wouldn't attack civilian areas.

On topic, it is a nonsense reply to a legitimate question. Level of discussion is definitely quote low so I agree with you on that.

 

[wiseone2]

???
We are buying 5 billion worth of Submarines, you think we csnt buy a few F16s?

aren't the submarines bought on concessional loans ??
pakistan's naval budget is $750 million

 

[SrNair]

Congratulations for the deal..But question is..From where IAF would buy pilots to fly the Rafales??

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Academy,_Dundigul

Not buying ,but discovering the talents from lakhs of youths.
The most brilliant that cracks the NDA will find their way to AFA.

I know one guy .He was a rank holder in public examinations.

Mr. Nair your hands are shaking well before time. You've quoted my message 4 times. Don't worry, if there is ever an Pakistan-India war, Pakistan wouldn't attack civilian areas.

On topic, it is a nonsense reply to a legitimate question. Level of discussion is definitely quote low so I agree with you on that.

Dont blame .
Sometimes this site is not working.
Lol .I dont think so.I dont think PAF can even cross our airspace even if a war.Our modernization is just in another level
Nope.
There is nothing legitimate in yhat question

 

[Trying to be honest]

HQ 9 is straight forward answer but there are a number of more puzzles that need to be solved. Meteor plus aesa plus spectra make detection difficult and give first shoot capability. But then rafale would be a worry around 2025 when numbers approach the 100 number as initial batches to be uses mostly for detering china.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

???
We are buying 5 billion worth of Submarines, you think we can't buy a few F16s?
The F16s were offered to us at a subsidised cost, then the terms sale/cost changed at the point of sale
Something which we refused to agree tO

If You are not buying at full price, and the US are not selling at subsidized cost,
you are not getting any. It is as simple as that.

 

[araz]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

Agreed. I think what started out as a quest for more M2Ks has turned a really steep corner for IAF. I really think it is not worth the 8 billion $ that IAF will pay for it. 36 ACwill not cut any grass in the bigger scheme of things and I dont thinkthe Indians have the 20 odd billions to spend on the 126 Rafales that they wanted.
However does it give them more muscle to put on the daal eating Tejas bhai in the form of Radar, EW suiteand even the M88 engine? How have/ are the French going to help improving the Tejas. Is this what this is all about witha little show of force to show the Chinese they will not be bullied by them while in reality hoping for more improvements on the Tejas courtesy the French. This remains my focus of attention.
The second thing which I wonder is how the US will be appeased as there seems no sense now to spend another 4-6 billion to establish the manufacturing facility for the 16s.
Your opinion would be interesting to read.
A

Is he a "professional" ???

On a serious note, Rafale is not a game changer to India or the region. It's a game beginner. Pls keep this in mind.

You cerrtainly are not! Other things maybe but not a professional.
If this is the game beginner then you will be puffing and huffing and out of the race for quite some time. It is not easy to spend 8 billion $ and then look for bigger and better even for the mighty Indians.
Dont get me wrong the Rafale is a great piece of machinery but the numbers vs your need dont match up.
A

Induction of Rafael is not that bad as India already operate french platform, Mirage. But it is nevertheless a new platform which requires training of service-staff, pilots and then integration of armament, development of offensive / defensive strategies in collaboration with what India already has. 36 Jets also mean India can only keep them at one or two airbases only and its strategic scattering on multiple airports wouldn't be possible.

In my opinion, a war with India is due within next 2 years. My question here is that will India be able to absorb Rafael within this time-frame + would its pilots have developed skills to use this platform effectively?

You ars entitled to your opinion but forget about a war in the region at least for a decade and a half. There just is not nenpugh justification and both parties cannot afford to pay the price of war
A

 

[volatile]

Fact is this is the height of desperation and ignorance showed and frankly quiet immature post .This post is inviting Indians to make fun for PAF . Rafale is a reality with backward counting on 36 months . Rafale induction will incorporate newer technology and with Mig replacement the quality gap is going to be giant leap .IAF can afford 36 for 8 Billions $ so good for them but instead of making fun or celebrating over IAF procurement we should induct some thing on better lines .
@MastanKhan

 

[cerberus]

dont thinkthe Indians have the 20 odd billions to spend on the 126 Rafales that they wanted.

Not now but in future Last Delivery will be at 2021 by that time are budget Will reach 80-90 Billion $ Go through The First whole package Every new Procurement cost High at first

And We Will buy them Why Do you think We why we are building 2 Aircraft carriers in are docks Which cost 5 billion Each We Will buy Something To satisfy need of indian naval arm for 200 aircrafts

Seriously you think india is not spending what given Media then you are wrong We Properly managing it
there 6 Nuke SSBM under construction There Many projects

You can Twist you argument in any way but It wont stop that we are increasing Our capabilities Day by day