What's new

The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

There's no treason for celebrations here. It should be taken as a cause of great concern for the PAF. There's no way to spin this. While PAF is fascinated with a 1970s era F-16s, India is undergoing 100-Billion+ modernization program almost creating a generational gaps between the capabilities of both air forces.

With them spending so much on Rafeals i think Pakistan are in the best position it can be now to buy our next generation fighter, China, Turkey, US and now most importantly after this India French deal Russia will be very keen to provide su35 to both Pakistan and Iran and potentially dwarf the 8 billion deal India signed.
 
This opinion piece, on an opinion blog, as put more heartache on our neighbors. than 5 decades of Indian movies combined.


Part one took how many years?
Yeah it took years but then IAF wasn't sitting idle in between. It added 200+ Su-30MKIs and still adding till Rafale starts delivering. Not to mention, though slowly but Tejas is catching the party too.
 
Oh bhai J-31 2026 se pehle nahi aane laga 10 saal tk bhool jao

I disagree omar, Chinese already have the expertise with the J20, its Chinese timelines we are talking about here not MMRCA. Anyway im sure the PAF would already know that, so whether they go for a Rafale equiv or get the true 5th Gen in time.
 
This opinion piece, on an opinion blog, as put more heartache on our neighbors. than 5 decades of Indian movies combined.


Part one took how many years?

Part one and Part Two are interrelated

The whole process got delayed because part Two could not be agreed upon

Now with New rules; policies ; regulations and procedures in PLACE
The Part two will take shape and fructify in a much better manner

You dont want to just PUT a FACTORY ; It should run effectively and profitably

Therefore when it was FORE seen that there would be many problems in the
management and execution of the earlier arrangement
the PM took a bold decision to scrap the whole earlier process
and start a new one

To use an example and analogy from your country ;
we wanted to avoid a Nandipur like fiasco
 
8 billion for 36 jets is crazy numbers.

Surely the f35 becomes a much viable option if you are paying that kind of money. or did uncle sam not want to pass on any technology of the f35 to india due to the Russia connection.

Is the Rafeal a better fighter jet then the f35? i would say a big no
I would say a big yes. The only edge F-35 has over rafale is the VLO design. I would suggest you to go through this thread to know rafale's actual capabilities.
https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/
 
Apples are sour. J-31 is full decade away to be in PAF color. Anyway no harm in Day Dreaming Mamoo !!

you said "Apples are sour", actually its grapes, you must be eating you apples raw.

J31 may or may not be a decade away but I think it will come a lot sooner then that given the experience chinese already have with the J20.
 
Here is my opinion! / And here's mine, mate!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.
You know it won't stay at 36. In fact, the ridicule of it without the add-on to 54 is the best
indicator to an observer that something's afoot.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.
Yeah, 6 times, sure, 60 times, whatever but when buyers made updates on them,
Israel, Pakistan and of course India itself, the cells were always found to be sturdy
enough yet for re-work and extended life. It's Zippo not a Bic.


C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.
Ooooh! Convey my most sincere sympathies to whomever holds that impression enough to challenge it.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.
First part yes but why the second? How hard is it to graduate your incoming pilots?
Learn Indian or British jet, become a war pilot by serving an Indian jet until fully
qualified and choose heavy or fast class for career mainstay on Ru & Fr jets, top
multi-role platforms until higher end local achievements take over those classes too.


E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.
Unless a Rafale MII is already under way and Trappier said as much in the ETNOW interview.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.
LOL Typhoon was out of MMRCA by Indian rules once L2 anyway so moot point.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.
LOL WUT! I hope you mean numbers which we already covered because implying that
the concerned uniformed professionals' expectations aren't met qualitatively by the Rafale
... flies in the face of the IAF's opinion as expressed under the MMRCA selection.


H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.
Yeah, big bribes because we are so despondent that we can't sell our wares without
bakshish. Would want the bad TGV or the bad Airbus liners, those awful clothes and
jewelry and accessories and cosmetics and biggest cruise ships and most sought after
rockets to space if we didn't include trunks of cash in the deal to convince them???
Oh wait, the whole world actually, most of them even visit to buy even without bribes
to get them to bear out our sh!t+y lifestyle and ugly country! Go figure!?
:undecided:

Sorry to say but you sounded more on something than onto something this time around, man!
Good day to you, Tay.
 
Last edited:
4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party

Sign in | Create a Rediffmail account
Rediff.com » News » 4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
ShareComment
To get such articles in your inbox
Text size: A A A
September 23, 2016 09:47 IST


Ajai Shukla explains why there is considerable discomfort within the defence ministry about the Rafale deal.

15lead1.jpg


On a warm Delhi evening on April 3, 2015, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had left his South Block office and was driving to catch his flight to Goa, when his mobile phone received an incoming call from the Prime Minister's Office.

Could he come in urgently, an official asked, the PM would like to talk briefly.

When Parrikar reached the PMO, Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang a bombshell.

Parrikar was told that, on Modi's forthcoming trip to Paris, he and French President Francois Hollande would announce an agreement for India to buy 36 Rafale fighters.

During Modi's nine-day tour of France, Germany and Canada, Parrikar would have to manage the media and field the inevitable questions.

Taken aback, Parrikar still caught his flight to Goa. Over the next week, he batted loyally on behalf of his PM, publicly defending a decision he neither understood nor agreed with, that was taken over his head, and that senior ministry of defence officials warned him would be difficult to defend.

Today, 17 months later, most pledges that Parrikar issued in defence of Modi's Rafale agreement have proven incorrect.

He told the Press Trust of India in Goa that all 36 Rafale fighters would join the IAF within two years; in fact more than six years will elapse before the final delivery is made.

He repeated the Modi-Hollande undertaking that the price would be 'on terms that would be better than' Dassault's bid in the now cancelled tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. It now turns out that India will pay a vastly higher price.

But Parrikar, through 17 months of defending a deal that was not his, has become the face of the Rafale.

And after Friday, when he and his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian sign an inter-governmental agreement for 36 Rafales, Parrikar -- and not Modi -- will answer for the purchase.

There is disquiet within the MoD about the acquisition, with officials concerned about subsequent scrutiny by Constitutional authorities like the Comptroller and Auditor General. Their key worries are as follows.

Exorbitant cost

A key element in price negotiations is 'benchmarking', or comparing Dassault's price with other contracts involving the same fighter.

With India, Dassault had already established a benchmark in the MMRCA acquisition, where it had quoted a price for 18 fully built Rafales, just like the 36 fighters that India is now buying.

Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale's bid for 126 fighters, stating: 'When you talk of 126 (Rafale) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore' -- Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.

Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (over Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft -- more than double the earlier price.

True, the current contract includes elements that were not there in the 126 fighter MMRCA tender -- including a superior weapons package with Meteor missiles; and performance-based logistics, which bind Dassault to ensure that a stipulated percentage of the Rafale fleet remains combat-ready at all times. The percentage is guessed to be about 75 to 80 per cent, an unchallenging target for Western fighter types.

Even deducting Euro 2.8 billion for the weapons and PBL from the anticipated Euro 7.8 billion contract amount, a Euro 5 billion (over Rs 37,000 crore) price tag for 36 Rafales puts the ticker price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore.

For that the IAF can buy two-and-a-half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters -- a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.

Variation in fighter types

IAF logisticians, who already struggle to maintain, repair and support six different types of fighters -- the Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft -- are hardly welcoming the prospect of a seventh fighter type, which would require expensive, tailor-made base infrastructure, repair depots and spare parts chains.

Air power experts say more Sukhoi-30MKIs would eliminate this need, besides being cheaper.

Alternatively, fast-tracking the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, which Russia and India intend to co-develop, would eliminate the need for Rafales.

Even if the IAF exercises an option clause for 18 more Rafales, there would be just three operational squadrons, like with the Mirage 2000.

Besides the options clause, nine more Rafales would be needed, since an IAF squadron has 21 fighters.

Sovereign guarantees

While New Delhi is negotiating the Rafale purchase directly with the private vendor, Dassault, the MoD wants sovereign guarantees from the French government, of the kind that come with American equipment bought through the Foreign Military Sales route.

In a FMS procurement -- India's C-130J Super Hercules purchase -- the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) sets up a dedicated 'project management team' that negotiates on the buyer's behalf, beating down the price, establishing training and logistics support, and providing assurance that the buyer gets everything needed to operate and maintain the product.

Alongside FMS support, corruption is deterred by the stringent US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which vendors seldom dare to violate. This provides comfort to Indian MoD officials against subsequent allegations raised against a deal.

Paris, in contrast, is only willing to give a lukewarm written assurance of support with the Rafale -- something that the MoD refers to disparagingly as a 'comfort letter.'

Piecemeal contracting

India needs some 200 to 300 fighters to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleet that is being phased out of service. Just 36 Rafales provides little cover, so the IAF hopes to buy not just 18 more under the options clause, but perhaps another tranche later.

MoD officials complain that piecemeal contracting provides little leverage for beating down prices.

The same problem will afflict the procurement of the Gripen NG, or F-16s, which the MoD is weighing as possible options to replace retiring fighters.

With an IGA in the offing, and a formal contract yet to be negotiated, New Delhi would still have the opportunity to address these issues, say MoD officials.

Yet, the IGA on Friday will be celebrated in the IAF as a giant step towards a fighter they have pursued tenaciously for 15 years.



http://www.rediff.com/news/column/f...ld-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm

That is the disadvantages of democracy and freedom of expression

Ajay Shukla is an agent of Lockheed Martin and SAAB
 
you said "Apples are sour", actually its grapes, you must be eating you apples raw.

J31 may or may not be a decade away but I think it will come a lot sooner then that given the experience chinese already have with the J20.

It can, but unfortunately, the chinese are giving more attention to the J20. J-31 is for export, and like the Defracto method it gives the glimse of F35, atleast from outside, lets wait to see what's inside does chinese could offer.
 
@Bilal Khan 777

With the Rafale deal ; India is NOT just getting Planes

It is about a whole new level of Industrial and TECHNOLOGICAL benefits

We are spending BIG money to get MANY good technologies
in Various DEFENCE related sectors

This will be evident as time goes by
 
There's no need of celebrations. According to IAF Rafale is best for surgical strikes. So they are preparing. But where are preparations of PAF ?
There condition is going down day by day.
 
I disagree omar, Chinese already have the expertise with the J20, its Chinese timelines we are talking about here not MMRCA. Anyway im sure the PAF would already know that, so whether they go for a Rafale equiv or get the true 5th Gen in time.

Please be realistic
The Chinese gave that timeline not me. according to the Chinese the Production of J-31 will start in 2024 and you think in the same year J-31 will come to Pakistan?? Please... Even 2024 is 8 years from now and in 2021 India will have 36 Rafales Successfully Inducted and who knows may be they start to induct PAK-FA T-50

There's no need of celebrations. According to IAF Rafale is best for surgical strikes. So they are preparing. But where are preparations of PAF ?
There condition is going down day by day.

JF-17 is answer to everything
 
Back
Top Bottom