The India Pakistan geographical divide is at least 1600 years old

[wiseone2]

We Pakistanis all share the same genetic cluster and have cultural similarities.

how come Mohajhirs are not a separate group ?

you have summarized it well but some major holes
They never went beyond Chenab...Big Difference compared to Indus....and the Post Mauryan Empires only extended as a small triangular incision beyond Jalandhar/Sutlej. This small triangular incision would include prsent day Lahore,Sialkot and in some cases Gujarat,Punjab. So post-Mauryan empires held to maxx 2-3% of Pakistani territory even in best of times

The Gupta empire ruled the Indus valley. Most of the Muslim kings from Delhi ruled Punjab. A few had Sind, Peshwar and Baluchistan under their rule.

One can argue the ruler of Punjab never ruled Baluchistan for most of history.

The fierce wars between the Durranis and Marathas in the 18th century in the wake of the Gurkani collapse was nothing but a reversion to this pre-Islamic delineation between Indus and rest of the subcontinent

The Marathas were driven away from Peshawar and rest of the Indus Area, but later in turn the Durranis had to retreat west of Sutlej.

The fact Marathas did not cross the Sutlej had nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim divide. Ranjit Singh the Sikh ruler went all the way upto Peshwar. Without Ranjit Singh there is a good chance Peshwar is under Afghan rule.

 

[Mian Babban]

The Marathas were driven away from Peshawar and rest of the Indus Area, but later in turn the Durranis had to retreat west of Sutlej.

Marathas did not cross river Indus and did not enter Peshawar valley. In fact they did not establish any authority in Sind-Sagar doab (tract of land between river Indus and river Jehlum) and their penetration into Sind-Sagar doab was nothing more than a raid.

 

[ashok mourya]

Most of North India only got a single pulse of Indo-European admixture---the Indo-Aryans
Most of Eastern Pakistan got admixture from Persians,Greeks,Scythians,Kushanas,Wusuns,Yuezhis,Alchon Huns,Nezak Huns,Kidarites, Hepthalites on top of the earliest Aryan admixture..This is discounting the later Islamic nomadic admixtures ..I am focussing on purely pre-Islamic times


only some parts of Western India got the Scythian and Hunnic admixture....but even then not at the same level as Eastern Pakistan...

Western Pakistan is of course the Direct descendant of Nomadic tribes


As you go from Bangladesh to Eastern Pakistan, there is gradual change in the median look in terms of sharpness of facial features, skin colour, acquiliníty of nose, shoulder width

I am asking about race similarity between Pakistanis and Arabs..???

 

[jetray]

You must be frustrated right now.

You cannot even claim Indus Valley Civilization

world knows who is who and we dont need any certificates. Barbaric invaders looted our lands but they cannot claim to own our rich culture and legacy. Any one who does it only becomes the laughing stock of the world. Delusional self serving discussions on PDF are only for trolls not for serious consumption.
Even your arab brothers wont associate indus valley with pakistan.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hey as&hole, can you stop quoting me. If not shove something in your as& and keep quite...you douche.

Why shyt face? Has ur arseholiness stopped making claims outta ur Vedic choot ka surakh.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Marathas did not cross river Indus and did not enter Peshawar valley. In fact they did not establish any authority in Sind-Sagar doab (tract of land between river Indus and river Jehlum) and their penetration into Sind-Sagar doab was nothing more than a raid.

The wikipedia has two battles ..One listed as Battle of Peshawar 8th May,1758..another as Battle of Attock, 28th April , 1758....But all reputable maps from the British show their administration extending only till east Bank of Sutlej in 1760

 

[Kabira]

If Gurjaras and Gurjara-Pratiharas are two completely distinct entities, then you are right.

Yes I believe Gurjara-Pratiharas and nomadic gujjars of northen Pakistan and punjab are two different entities. Gurjara-pratiharas were rajputs, brahmins ruling class of present day Indian Gujarat/Rajasthan. While nomadic gujjars in north Pakistan and punjab are cattle herders and Gujrat and Gujranwala in punjab are named after them.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Why you guys give a shit about this? India can go to hell.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I am asking about race similarity between Pakistanis and Arabs..???

Some parts of the erstwhile ruling nobility of Sindh and Bahawalpur bound to have heavy Arab blood. To be fair, Pakistanis never play up Arab ancestry, but rather point out to their much heavier Indo-European ancestry compared to Indians. It is Indians who mistake these Central Asian races listed as Arabs. Many Indians are under the false impression that Ghaznis,Ghoris,Lodhis and Mughals are Arabs. The level of historical literacy among modern day Indians has gone down the drain, failing to distinguish between pseudo-history, fantasy of the epics and real life events...Although the generation of Indians who hit their teenage years before 1947 were historically much more literate. Part of this has to do with the fact that the British were very exacting when it came to wielding the Historical Method and part of it also has to do with the erstwhile presence of the Central Asian races in the big cities of British India.


You donot see somebody bringing in the same Historical perspective for India as say somebody like @Mian Babban or @Kaptaan brings for the North West. This is a reflection of the terrible lack of enthusiasm for history among the Indian populace, which is also evidenced in real life

 

[XDescendantX]

These are the countries we are descended from and mixed with. Therefore we should unite as one country. Automatic super power!

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

This has been discussed to death. Point is that the differences between Pakistanis and indians is far greater than any similarities. Proving anything else is neither here nor there. The gulf of difference between Pakistanis and indians is already unbridgeable and is only going to get bigger. india is moving in a completely different direction to us wheras Pakistan's destiny and future lie with China, Turkey and to a lesser extent the Muslims nations to the West of us. As the older generation die out, so dies indian influence in Pakistan. That is the reality. Proving or disproving history is irrelevant.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Yes I believe Gurjara-Pratiharas and nomadic gujjars of northen Pakistan and punjab are two different entities. Gurjara-pratiharas were rajputs, brahmins ruling class of present day Indian Gujarat/Rajasthan. While nomadic gujjars in north Pakistan and punjab are cattle herders and Gujrat and Gujranwala in punjab are named after them.

take a look at this map...replace the dots with the symbols and tell me what you think...This is as granular as my Knowledge is going to get regarding the Gurjara vs Gurjara Pratihara confusion..the time period is between 700-975 AD...before the invasions of Ghazni...

dsal dot uchicago dot edu/reference/schwartzberg/fullscreen.html?object=068


I recommended the University of Chicago map vault to @Kaptaan too, and he promised to provide his own take after going through everything

dsal dot uchicago dot edu/maps/

dsal dot uchicago dot edu/reference/schwartzberg/





Pakistanis should have the patience to explain to Indians that Central Asian nomadic races which settled down in the Indus Valley both in pre and post-Islamic times are NOT Arabs...Vigorous education will reduce the wilful ignorance and trolling.. I am frustrated myself with the ignorance of history by modern Indians ..(was not the case with my Grandfather's generation)

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I recommended the University of Chicago map vault

Thanks. It's a treasure trove of info. I am slowly going through it. Lot of it is from 1970s and that is very important. The reason is that before 1980s most academic sources in English were written or prepared by non South Asians. I am not suggesting non South Asian are better but they don't bring bias into the subject unlike Pak/Indians. No doubt there is always going to be some bias but Paks/Indians just take it to another level. That is why Wiki sources are waste of time. Whereas most of pre 1990s work is free from armies of internet Hindutva warriors.

Here is the link > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/schwartzberg/pager.html?object=058

@Juggernaut_is_here Why do I get a feeling you are a alter-ego of a established PDF Indian member?

 

[xyxmt]

Our history is too complicated to be broken down in a simple sense. The main thing to understand is that India is a composite culture. At the current time there is little in Pakistani culture that is not there in Indian culture in some variant or form. Maybe Pusthuns and Baluchis have cultural things India does not have. But they are less than 15% of Pakistan's population.

I see Pakistan developing its unique identity in the next 50-100 years. I could not say if it is for the better or the worse.

if only cultural similarities defined borders then the whole of Europe should be one country.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

if only cultural similarities defined borders then the whole of Europe should be one country.

Forget about Europe. The entire Western world including USA, Canada, Australia etc

Oh can somebody tell me what exactly differance there is between American/Canadian. Irish/British etc