The India Pakistan geographical divide is at least 1600 years old

[Kabira]

take a look at this map...replace the dots with the symbols and tell me what you think...This is as granular as my Knowledge is going to get regarding the Gurjara vs Gurjara Pratihara confusion..the time period is between 700-975 AD...before the invasions of Ghazni...

dsal dot uchicago dot edu/reference/schwartzberg/fullscreen.html?object=068


I recommended the University of Chicago map vault to @Kaptaan too, and he promised to provide his own take after going through everything

dsal dot uchicago dot edu/maps/

dsal dot uchicago dot edu/reference/schwartzberg/





Pakistanis should have the patience to explain to Indians that Central Asian nomadic races which settled down in the Indus Valley both in pre and post-Islamic times are NOT Arabs...Vigorous education will reduce the wilful ignorance and trolling.. I am frustrated myself with the ignorance of history by modern Indians ..(was not the case with my Grandfather's generation)

That map doesn't look right. Gujrat or Gurjaratra as its named in map isn't historical city unlike Sakala/Sialkot. Gujrat and Gujranwala both are named after nomadic gujjars in Mughal era. Where Gujrat is located was likely called something else before Mughals. Mughals settled nomadic gujjars in current day Gujrat.

That map also confuses Kandahar city of south east Afghanistan with Gandhara.

 

[xyxmt]

Forget about Europe. The entire Western world including USA, Canada, Australia etc

Oh can somebody tell me what exactly differance there is between American/Canadian. Irish/British etc

People..the land they live on makes them different
why are Italians famous for mafia and crimes, Spanish who live next door are not

** Loved you signature, 10 likes for that

 

[Tea addict]

Yes I believe Gurjara-Pratiharas and nomadic gujjars of northen Pakistan and punjab are two different entities. Gurjara-pratiharas were rajputs, brahmins ruling class of present day Indian Gujarat/Rajasthan. While nomadic gujjars in north Pakistan and punjab are cattle herders and Gujrat and Gujranwala in punjab are named after them.

Right, The pratiharas are not related to current day pakistanis in any way. Their sphere of influence includes current day Rajasthan, South Haryana, West Gujarat, West MP and West UP.. the people who are neither bhaiyyas nor punjabis.
And coming to geography, the Pratiharas are the one who formed somewhat similar to current day geography 1600 years ago by stopping Bin Qasim in battle of Rajasthan.
And not only Rajputs and brahmins were pratihars.. It had many ethnicities like gurjars, ahirs, jaats, raykas, etc

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Thanks. It's a treasure trove of info. I am slowly going through it. Lot of it is from 1970s and that is very important. The reason is that before 1980s most academic sources in English were written or prepared by non South Asians. I am not suggesting non South Asian are better but they don't bring bias into the subject unlike Pak/Indians. No doubt there is always going to be some bias but Paks/Indians just take it to another level. That is why Wiki sources are waste of time. Whereas most of pre 1990s work is free from armies of internet Hindutva warriors.


@Juggernaut_is_here Why do I get a feeling you are a alter-ego of a established PDF Indian member?

The Historical Method is as exacting and laborious as the Scientific Method. And as much as it pains me, the formation of both Modern Scientific Method and Historical Method took place among the whites. Eventhough many other periods and races may have contributed heavily to the incipient/proto Scientific Method, we are really stretching the thread very thin then.

The Scientific Method was mostly formed in the century between Galileo's On Motion and Newton's Principia 1589-1687 AD


In the same way, Historiography/Historical Method was formed just before and during the composition of Edward Gibbon's "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".

And as you mentioned I think, around a couple of years back,(longtime lurker), only one race outside of the West managed to completely pulverize their old traditions and completely embrace the Scientific Method and Modern Rationality. We know that country as the Land of the Rising Sun,Japan.

Now India,Pakistan,China,Turkey,Iran are locked in a frantic race to make their societies and populace fully rational, scientific in order to join the club of cognitively elite countries... Trouble is the threat of automation, robotics and AI is looming large, and I doubt any of these countries will be able to complete their goal of modernization before AI is implemented.

 

[Kabira]

Their sphere of influence includes current day Rajasthan, South Haryana, West Gujarat, West MP and West UP.. the people who are neither bhaiyyas nor punjabis.
s, etc

Cow/hindi belt=bhaiya land

 

[Tea addict]

Cow/hindi belt=bhaiya land

So?

 

[ito]

Why shyt face? Has ur arseholiness stopped making claims outta ur Vedic choot ka surakh.

Hey foul mouth first learn how to ask a question...nobody will respond to you if you ask they way you ask...people who have inferiority complex resort to foul words because they know they are inferior.

I have seen scores of your type of internet hulks, who are sissies in real life. Anyway...I am responding to you this time...and will not respond if you don't know how to be civil on internet.

Have you heard of Al-Bakistan? Read...

http://dailytimes.com.pk/pakistan/04-Jul-16/welcome-to-al-bakistan
https://tribune.com.pk/story/681106/al-bakistan/
https://tribune.com.pk/story/664115/al-bakistan-dreamland/

There 1000's of more post on Arabization of Pakistanis on net from Pakistanis themselves ...google yourself.

 

[Suriya]

Stopped reading after this paragraph ! LOL

In that sense we can reread Abdali's invasion of India. Abdali is considered descendant of the Hepthalites who invaded India around 455 AD and got repulsed. Abdali's invasion was not a mission to re-establish Islam's premier position in India but rather a replay of the
fights between Gupta empire and the Hunas . A repeat of the interplay of the same

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

That map doesn't look right. Gujrat or Gurjaratra as its named in map isn't historical city unlike Sakala/Sialkot. Gujrat and Gujranwala both are named after nomadic gujjars in Mughal era. Where Gujrat is located was likely called something else before Mughals. Mughals settled nomadic gujjars in current day Gujrat.

That map also confuses Kandahar city of south east Afghanistan with Gandhara.

But it does point out to the legitimate Gandhara (the stretch between Taxila and Kabul), and it also offers an alternative spelling Qandhar.

I am afraid that is as good as we are going to get when it comes to primary academic sources. There is another section in the same website , called A Geopolitical Synopsis, which lists the borders of around 100 empires/states in the history of the subcontinent..exercise caution though there, as the borders there are sometimes a bit more exaggerated than in the primary plates......I think we can be sure that the place was under Hindu Shahis between 888 and 1001 AD (which would be a Indus Valley empire rather than a North Central One)....now if somebody can dig up its history between the Hunnic invasions and 888 AD, I will be much obliged

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hey foul mouth first learn how to ask a question...nobody will respond to you if you ask they way you ask...people who have inferiority complex resort to foul words because they know they are inferior.

I have seen scores of your type of internet hulks, who are sissies in real life. Anyway...I am responding to you this time...and will not respond if you don't know how to be civil on internet.

Have you heard of Al-Bakistan? Read...

http://dailytimes.com.pk/pakistan/04-Jul-16/welcome-to-al-bakistan
https://tribune.com.pk/story/681106/al-bakistan/
https://tribune.com.pk/story/664115/al-bakistan-dreamland/

There 1000's of more post on Arabization of Pakistanis on net from Pakistanis themselves ...google yourself.

Hey scumbag a useless article is all you have?

I can post more from your country... As how your people love to be like us or how u are our ugly neighbors and so on.

And you could pleasure yourself while reading em!

Now back to the topic.. Find me 2 Arab wannabes on the forum and I will give a flying Fk about u.


And oh as for sissies... Thats fkin tough coming from a douche .... Who bitxh about Pakistanis not befriending him...

 

[PakistaniNawab]

Why are you lot begging to be different from indians. North indians and punjabis and Sindhis are genetically from the same racial background only pashtuns and baloch are iranic btw I did a ancestry dna kit and my family are mirpur ajk and i got 87% south asian and 7% central asian and 3% melanesian.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@Juggernaut_is_here Why do I get a feeling you are a alter-ego of a established PDF Indian member?

I am not...I am a new member, but have appreciated yours and @Mian Babban's and @SarthakGanguly 's posts for a long time....


I am much like you in terms of interests.I am interested in

1) Evolution of Civilizations
2) Evolution of Empires
3) Race,Phenotypes
4) History of Science and the Scientific Method
5) Race and IQ and general Human Bio Diversity
6) How the above 5 Factors impact the subcontinent


I am much appalled by the historical illiteracy of modern Indians compared to my grandfather's generation...Time and again they identify the Central Asian races which settled in the Indus Valley both in pre and post-Islamic times as Arabs...

 

[StraightShooter]

Buddhism spread everyhere independent of Indo-Aryan expansion..though there were some exapansion of Hindus from Southern India to South East Asia. e.g. Satavahanas

Spread of Buddhism across the world was fully credited to Emperor Ashoka. It spread neither before or after him. In fact the 300 years gap between when Buddha lived and Buddism as religion was propagated has similarities how declining Roman emperors who started the spreading Christianity 300 years after the Jesus. The Kushan empire (30-300 CE) that followed Ashoka/Mauryan empire (350-100 BCE) and the Gupta Empire (300-600 CE) that followed Kushan empire followed a mix of Vedic religions, Buddhism and Jainism. Note that Ellora temples have Shiva, Buddha and Mahavira temples all next to each other in a single compound as people never felt any major differences between them. Also, Vedic religions were never meant to be propagated and were primarily supported in the sub continent (Note vedas were not supposed to written and were passed generation to generation vocally) while Buddhism was simplified form where one did not have understand Vedas, perform any rituals or worry about varna in far away foreign lands. Hence it was used as a vehicle for propagation of thoughts due to its simplicity.

The Mitanni treaty were Indo-Aryans who migrated to modern Iraq from Afghanistan

There is no proof for this statement. All we know is Hinduism was followed by the kingdoms of west Asia, Arab lands, Slavic countries and Steppes of Central Asia. Genetic scientists and Historians are still debating and everyone has their own theory.

the Indo-Iranian split (pre 2000 BC) happened way before the composition of the Vedas..The Asuras of Vedas are venerated in Zoroastrianism...there was an inversion of the Vedic religion in the Iranian branch

You have to show me that there is a consensus of among Historians that the Vedic religion as defined by the Vedas, was followed in Russia. A single Indian linguist doesnot pass the muster..where is the corresponding wikipedia article..

And a distinction should be made between the wider Indo-European trunk and the very distinct Indo-Aryan branch and the corresponding Vedic religion..Vedic religion was formed post 1500 BC ....The Rig Veda was composed in modern-day Punjab and NWFP region .----they may have had some sort of link to the BMAC complex though...But then again that's not Russia

Firstly Rig Veda was not composed in 1700 BCE. Vedas predate Ramayana (around 10000 BCE) and Mahabharata (8000 BCE). The last ice age was 12000 BCE. The melting waters first widened the palk strait after Ramarana and later submerged the city of Dwaraka after Mahabharata. The idols and references to Vedic gods in Russia & West Asia are all between 4000 - 2000 BCE. So Vedic religions may have expanded and then contracted like they did in South East Asia. The spilt between Avestan/Asuras and Sanskrit/Vedic/Suras has happened prior to 10000 BCE.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Its called assimilation.

In southern Panjab.. entire baloch tribes reside like the Mazaris,Lasharis,Buzdar and so on.. and although they follow the baloch culture.. they speak seriki.
(Although the Baloch population living in areas bordering balochistan are also bilingual)
The Pashtun Sadozais,Khakwanis,Babars etc of southern Panjab again speak seriki.

The Baloch of Sindh are also bilingual or assimilated into sindhi culture.
The Talpur dynasties and others who once ruled now speak Sindhi.. and so do other baloch tribes.

So Pakistan .. specifically panjab and sindh are melting pots of different races and cultures.

I don't think Indians understand the kind of cultural diversity and ethnic relations in Pakistan, although an average Indian claims to be a expert on Pakistan and Vedic era flying saucers but in real life scenario he/she is nothing but a retard with delusions of grandeur.

 

[django]

Why are you lot begging to be different from indians. North indians and punjabis and Sindhis are genetically from the same racial background only pashtuns and baloch are iranic btw I did a ancestry dna kit and my family are mirpur ajk and i got 87% south asian and 7% central asian and 3% melanesian.

You are missing the point, in todays world India is synonymous to Ganga/Dravid regions, i assure you they are noticeably different than folks from AJK/Potohar/Hazara, the folks from Indus region on both sides of Radcliffe line will have similarities, no question about it yet these folks only represent a tiny minority of India.