The growing agitation of Pakistanis against USA

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Not just Pakistan but many other Muslim countries too (except maybe Kosovo)

Even in Turkey and many European countries the same sentiment is felt.

But then again propaganda and media help shape how people on all sides think

 

[Vassnti]

Havi

I think we need to do more work to make people understand, and especially people in the US, that it is their own best interests to move away from the kind of relations we have had or rather have, towards relations in which commerce and civilization or culture are first and foremost - after all why would you want a security relationship with country with which your commercial and cultural relations were not just under developed but where in huge chunks of the populations have any number of misconceptions of the culture and intentions of the other?

More pople in the US have to think, whom would you trust? Generals who looking to take you for a ride? politicians who seek to rob the treasury and run away to the West? Or deep commercial relations in which civil society has investment and makes a profit on both sides, and where in you have a civil cultural discourse and exchange??

The question missing is why would the US want a relation ship with Pakistan at all?

The majority of Pakistani's blame the US for every thing, their corrupt politicians , western democracy is to blame.
Terrorists the US and the wot
Kashmir because the US is or isnt involved depending on the week.
The economy is a mess because the US either gives too much aid which is all stolen by the corrupt poloticians ( see above) or too little aid.

The US is Pakistans whipping boy every thing that is wrong blame America well in a year the US will be out of Afghanistan. They wont need your roads they wont need your bases they wont need the ISI.

I keep seeing people listing Pakistans demands of how a new relationship should be and what the US should offer Paksitan in exchange for that relationship.

Lets face it Pakistan is about to become the ugly older sister, you shouldnt be arguing on how expensive the restaurant is you should be happy if any one asks you out.

 

[Rusty]

The question missing is why would the US want a relation ship with Pakistan at all?

The majority of Pakistani's blame the US for every thing, their corrupt politicians , western democracy is to blame.
Terrorists the US and the wot
Kashmir because the US is or isnt involved depending on the week.
The economy is a mess because the US either gives too much aid which is all stolen by the corrupt poloticians ( see above) or too little aid.

The US is Pakistans whipping boy every thing that is wrong blame America well in a year the US will be out of Afghanistan. They wont need your roads they wont need your bases they wont need the ISI.

I keep seeing people listing Pakistans demands of how a new relationship should be and what the US should offer Paksitan in exchange for that relationship.

Lets face it Pakistan is about to become the ugly older sister, you shouldnt be arguing on how expensive the restaurant is you should be happy if any one asks you out.

The last time the US ignored Pakistan they got 9/11
Like it or not, it is a vital US interest to be engaged with Pakistan.
Of course it's a two way street, Pakistanis would also like the US to leave them alone but that is unlikely to happen.

How is that for an Ugly sister?

 

[Always Neutral]

A recent survey conducted by Pew Global Attitudes (a project of a research center in Washington) in Pakistan has proven that the 64% of the people in Pakistan see USA as one of the greatest threats to Pakistan. On the other hand only about 9% believe that the US can ever be Pakistan’s ally.

The link to this article is here on Havi Sultan's webspace-do comment or rate please.
@FaujHistorian this is a continuation of our debate but I will start from 2 to answer Muse's question.

Yet this article does not address why Pakistani's pay millions to come illegally to USA and EU?

 

[Vassnti]

The last time the US ignored Pakistan they got 9/11
Like it or not, it is a vital US interest to be engaged with Pakistan.
Of course it's a two way street, Pakistanis would also like the US to leave them alone but that is unlikely to happen.

How is that for an Ugly sister?

Sounds like an ugly sister with a couple of brothers.

I dont see how that makes things vital.

If your trying to link terrorist attacks with Pakistan getting what it wants i would suggest thats a very dangerous road no one wants to go down.

 

[Rusty]

Sounds like an ugly sister with a couple of brothers.

I dont see how that makes things vital.

If your trying to link terrorist attacks with Pakistan getting what it wants i would suggest thats a very dangerous road no one wants to go down.

What is it with your obsession with the ugly sister? Do you have some kind of kink for that stuff?

I guess the major pre-occupation for the last 10 years being the war on terror is not such a big deal to you and thus not vital....
Well you do live in New Zealand and probably still get news from the outside from steam boats.

I am trying to say that if the US meddles in Pakistani affairs and then just walks away, it has not exuse to angry when something like 9/11 happens.

ideally the US should just bugger off and leave the world alone.
Of course this is just wishful thinking, so if the US wants to meddle with Pakistan and it's affairs then it will have to pay a price. That price being the fractured relationship it has with Pakistan.


And the time for you chicken hawks to squak is over.
You people started 2 unnecessary wars and showed that even with your overwhelming military power you cannot defeat a bunch of farmers with sandles and rusty aks. It's gotten to the point where the US military is now letting women fight the war due to lack of men willing to do it.

It's time for the west to put down it it's racism and come to the world with dialogue and not guns. Time for you people to admit that brown people are humans too and we have our own needs and desires.

 

[haviZsultan]

Yet this article does not address why Pakistani's pay millions to come illegally to USA and EU?

That is not related to the foreign policy of said country. That is about the standard of life in Pakistan and the utter lack of security provided. We are grateful for that but we are being smothered and have no foreign policy which is in control of US. I addressed the grievances my people have in a post. Will copy it:

1) Nuke deal with India but refused to Pakistan
2) Davis kills 2 Pakistanis and escapes. There is no proof of Afia being a terrorist and still in jail and will be there forever.
3) Fazlullah hiding in Kunar. Faqir Mohammed's (Ex-Bajaur Chief's) bases in Afghanistan.
4) US refusal to condemn India for the Siachen incursion but raising an outcry on the Kargil one which was made by fauji's after the Siachen debacle when they took 1000 miles of our land.
5) USA's offer to sell better quality F16's to India compared to what they sold us.
6) Framing of Pakistani innocents in the name of terrorism-Seen it, researched it.
7) Maltreatment of Pakistanis in airports and hounding of Pakistani political Organizations in north America. Even secular ones. Yes-this is the only thing they are good at.
8) Support for dictators in Pakistani land. 3 major ones had their backing. Zia was the one who Islamicized Pakistan with their blessing in case you did not notice.
9) Presler Amendment. When we were not needed by USA anymore. Cold war over, Afghanistan in ruins but of course the Soviets disgraced as they wanted that is what came. Military and economic cooperation CUT and mark my words IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN-200% chance and I bet on my life when this war on terror is over this will come again. They will harass us even more than they are now.
10) The blame Pakistan suffers on a daily basis. Pakistan is held responsible for every failure. I believe you think we are responsible. Partly I agree, yes. But you do not know about the successes, Ramzir yousuf, Baradar, Khalid Sheikh (top 9/11 terrorist) were all capture by us.
11) Pakistan counting on US support and not getting any in 1971. Weak point? Leave that then. I think it is too. But consider the rest.
12) Add to this the Indian nuclear test smiling Buddha in 74 being ignored by the US while our military and economy being sanctioned.
13) Add to this the framing of Kashmiri activist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai in a false case as an ISI agent in another attempt to malign ISI

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ion-pakistanis-against-usa.html#ixzz2Juf4gDBf

The issue is on the foreign policy front. When we tell you we will be able to deal with the insurgency better if US isn't involved here and these issues are addressed no one listens.

 

[Contrarian]

This list of complaints is bull trash.

India got the deal befause its not india who supplied nuclear technology to north Korean in exchange for missiles.
Furth we have a continuous democracy and not military rule. Our military is subservient to the government and not unaccountable like Pakistan army.

India is getting an option to buy better F-16 because we can pay for it unlike Pakistan who wants it for free.


When india took siachen it was no mans land. Who the hell says its Pakistani territory. Kargil was inside the defined and accepted LoC. That is why not just the US but the world was against Pakistan.

Indian was sanctioned just as well after vajpayee conducted nuclear tests.

But despite pointing out actual facts to Pakistani's, they will ignore all of this. And again start harping how it was so unfair to them that India was given the nuclear deal and Pakistan was denied openly.

Pakistanis just complain against US for everything. And Pakistani's also have this sense of entitlement as if the world should somehow be obligated to give them whatever they want.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

This list of complaints is bull trash.

India got the deal befause its not india who supplied nuclear technology to north Korean in exchange for missiles.
Furth we have a continuous democracy and not military rule. Our military is subservient to the government and not unaccountable like Pakistan army.

India is getting an option to buy better F-16 because we can pay for it unlike Pakistan who wants it for free.


When india took siachen it was no mans land. Who the hell says its Pakistani territory. Kargil was inside the defined and accepted LoC. That is why not just the US but the world was against Pakistan.

Indian was sanctioned just as well after vajpayee conducted nuclear tests.

But despite pointing out actual facts to Pakistani's, they will ignore all of this. And again start harping how it was so unfair to them that India was given the nuclear deal and Pakistan was denied openly.

Pakistanis just complain against US for everything. And Pakistani's also have this sense of entitlement as if the world should somehow be obligated to give them whatever they want.

We could damn care about your nuclear deal. Nobody in the street cares or talks about it. Have fun having nosy officials monitor your nuclear sites, I think we can do without that!

The rest of your post is just rhetorical and based on over-used and old boring lines.

I don't take such drivel seriously




P.s another Indian peddling bs. We paid for the F16s.

 

[BATMAN]

Yet this article does not address why Pakistani's pay millions to come illegally to USA and EU?

Every one welcomes millionier!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Fauj I don't understand how you can support our policy. The only thing holding us together is the war on terror and that ends we split faster than a hollywood marriage gone bad. We have to think what we are going to do in the future. We are highly pro-American. They abandoned us in the past-its going to happen again. We need to think about alternative policy. US isn't the only thing and a relationship with them isn't the only thing that can happen.

Even in the war on terror which is the only glue here in our relationship we have differing interests. We want the TTP militants like Hakimullah, Fazlullah, Faqir Mohammed Afridi, Mullah Toofan, Asmatullah Shaheen etc they want the Haqqanis, Bahawal Khan's Hekmatyar's and Gul Bahadurs. We are on diametrically opposite poles here.

One day the relationship will break down... what will we do then? We can fight the terrorists in our own way. Please understand this. We have been bashing our skull against a wall since 2007. We need a change in strategy and it won't happen unless we decide the party for the Americans is over.

It is a pity that Pakistani Think Tankers would belittle his own country while totally ignoring 200+ years old military combat history in the region.

But then my dear dear poster, you are not alone. Even our military generals (who are not intellectuals neither historian) tend to forget that Pakistan is joined at the hip with really sensitive regions of the world.

Some corners are sensitive because of our Easter neighbor,

Some are sensitive due to our Western neighbors, and some due to northern neighbor.

And none of these regions is going away any time soon (at least not in the next 100 years)


What I can say is that you should ignore Pakistan's military history at your own peril.

And thus

Anyone defining and limiting our relationship with the West based solely on WoT doesn't know the Alif Bay of our present nor our past.


This short sighted approach by Pakistani intellectuals (typically left leaning if not downright commies) has made Pakistan a laughing stock in the world.

We never planned ahead for the 60s, nor 80s, nor 90s.

And thus

we have put ourselves through last minute decisions and made them look like crisis management rather than pre-planned well-informed decisions.

This post will take pages after pages to explain our $tupidities in the past,

but please trust me. What our leftie intellectuals are suggesting now will take us to yet another crisis in 5 years or so.

And good natured kind hearted posters like you will yet again pontificate that our relation with the West is only 4 years long, and then we will split like Las Vegas married couple.

Far from it.

The history clearly shows that we have decades if not centuries long co-dependence with the the big powers. And it never was short lived and it never will be.


Thank you.


p.s. Sorry if I come out as a harsh critic. These are just simple statements and please take them as they are. No emotions or disrespect.

 

[CENTCOM]

Every “relationship” has its ups and downs, and what makes the U.S. – Pakistan relationship more complex is the national interests of both countries. We must realize that the United States government is answerable to its people in times of crisis, and when American citizens are killed. 9/11 was the last straw when over 3000 of our innocent citizens killed in senseless but organized enemy attacks. This attack was not the first attempt by the enemy to hurt American citizens. Some will argue that the War on Terror was a direct reaction to the attacks of that day, but in reality it was due to the accumulation of targeted attacks all over the world, against our people, and interests, for example the embassy attacks in Africa, Al Khober in Saudi Arabia, and USS Cole in Yemen. The enemy had made their home in that region, and planned the attacks from there. No one can deny that, and the above mentioned Pew Poll indicates that 70% of Pakistanis want what we want – elimination of these terrorists. Isn’t that true?


The last decade has shown that we can work together, not only to defeat the common threat of terrorism, but also to save thousands of lives. Our forces working alongside the Pakistani military achieved that during the 2010 floods which devastated the Pakistani people. We were also there for the Pakistani people who were suffering after the 2005 earthquakes.


The United States is not Pakistan’s enemy. On the contrary, we see Pakistan as an important country in the region, and we acknowledge its contribution towards the WOT. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that Northern Pakistan is still plagued with terror groups that attack our troops and target civilians on both sides of the border. Together we can stand united against ruthless terrorists who kill innocent people without any remorse.


Abdul Quddus
DET-United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command

 

[unicorn]

The United States is not Pakistan’s enemy. On the contrary, we see Pakistan as an important country in the region, and we acknowledge its contribution towards the WOT. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that Northern Pakistan is still plagued with terror groups that attack our troops and target civilians on both sides of the border. Together we can stand united against ruthless terrorists who kill innocent people without any remorse.


Abdul Quddus
DET-United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command

Yes we know we are important to you that is why the current president of United States Mr Obama never even bother to visit Pakistan in all these years while making multiple trips to Afghanistan and to India.

 

[muse]

Yes we know we are important to you that is why the current president of United States Mr Obama never even bother to visit Pakistan in all these years while making multiple trips to Afghanistan and to India.

You actually want Obama to visit Pakistan? For what purpose?

 

[unicorn]

You actually want Obama to visit Pakistan? For what purpose?

The question here at hand is not about whether I like Obama to come here or not instead I am just giving an example that how important we are to USA.

Infact the height of our importance is so much to USA that during last visit of President Zardari to USA, Mr Obama refuses to meet him.