The growing agitation of Pakistanis against USA

[muse]

We must realize that the United States government is answerable to its people in times of crisis, in reality No one can deny that, and the above mentioned Pew Poll indicates that 70% of Pakistanis want what we want – elimination of these terrorists. Isn’t that true?


The last decade has shown that we can work together, not only to defeat the common threat of terrorism, but also to save thousands of lives.

The United States is not Pakistan’s enemy. On the contrary, we see Pakistan as an important country in the region, and we acknowledge its contribution towards the WOT. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that Northern Pakistan is still plagued with terror groups that attack our troops and target civilians on both sides of the border. Together we can stand united against ruthless terrorists who kill innocent people without any remorse.

Abdul Quddus
DET-United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command

And the Govt of Pakistan is answerable to the people of Pakistan, crisis or no crisis - and whereas we seek not just an end to terrorism but an end to the ideology and funding, both of which emanate from the US ally Saudi Arabia, the US has no interest in taking on the ideology and it's funding from it's "ally" SAUDI ARABIA". And be assured the US is important to Pakistan, just as US think in terms of "What kind of Pakistan" so, Pakistanis think in terms of what kind of US - US imagines that it will hunt with the Pakistanis and run with the Wahabi of Arabia - not realistic.

I don't know whether you are or were a chaplain, but if you were, you should realize that Northern Pakistan is a symptom, the disease is elsewhere.

Infact the height of our importance is so much to USA that during last visit of President Zardari to USA, Mr Obama refuses to meet him.

That's not a bad thing - The US has no clue as to who we are or who we aspire to be - and if it should understand, it will not be a friend, quite the contrary - just remember Abdul Qudus does not speak his mind, rather he seeks represent, to persuade you of a reality your own experience contradicts, so let him do his job, nothing personal.

 

[unicorn]

That's not a bad thing - The US has no clue as to who we are or who we aspire to be - and if it should understand, it will not be a friend, quite the contrary - just remember Abdul Qudus does not speak his mind, rather he seeks represent, to persuade you of a reality your own experience contradicts, so let him do his job, nothing personal.

Completely agree with you! His troll posting should be ignored from the next time as we cannot convince any one how we feel like and how much we are hurt by US hostile acts. Nothing personal Abdul Qudus.

US out reaching program is a joke. Who knows may be they are using our aid money in this. As every Pakistani fully realizes that US aid serves their purpose only. They don't just give some things unconditionally. Never.

 

[muse]

For our US "Ally" who insist that they have been on our side for the last 12 years, but don't be discouraged, you still have the Jamaati:


Sunni Ittehad Council issue fatwa against terrorism



LAHORE: At least 50 Islamic scholars belonging to Sunni Ittehad Council issued a fatwa (ruling) in which they condemned terrorism in the country, DawnNews reported.

They also condemned target killings in Karachi and Balochistan, along with sectarianism and suicide attacks.

The fatwa issued declared that suicide attacks are forbidden in Islam, and that those involved in the killing of innocent people are condemned to hell.

According to the fatwa, suicides attacks and related violence smears the name of Islam and weakens Pakistan.

The fatwa also said that the United States is the enemy of Pakistan and the Islamic world. Further stating that any alliance with the US is un-Islamic and illegal.

 

[FaujHistorian]

And the Govt of Pakistan is answerable to the people of Pakistan, crisis or no crisis - and whereas we seek not just an end to terrorism but an end to the ideology and funding, both of which emanate from the US ally Saudi Arabia, the US has no interest in taking on the ideology and it's funding from it's "ally" SAUDI ARABIA". And be assured the US is important to Pakistan, just as US think in terms of "What kind of Pakistan" so, Pakistanis think in terms of what kind of US - US imagines that it will hunt with the Pakistanis and run with the Wahabi of Arabia - not realistic.

I don't know whether you are or were a chaplain, but if you were, you should realize that Northern Pakistan is a symptom, the disease is elsewhere.



That's not a bad thing - The US has no clue as to who we are or who we aspire to be - and if it should understand, it will not be a friend, quite the contrary - just remember Abdul Qudus does not speak his mind, rather he seeks represent, to persuade you of a reality your own experience contradicts, so let him do his job, nothing personal.

Dear Muse!

No proof of your accusation has been recently provided by anyone in Pakistani government (unless I missed this news)



Funding for Wahabis militants come from "Gulf charities" through unofficial channels.
Funding for shia militants come from Iranian "charities" through unofficial channels.

Saudi and UAE governments no longer support the militancy under direct "advice" from the rest of the world including USA and EU.


We the Paks must realize that Gulf charities cannot send money to Pak if our government and our people get serious about not allowing the transfer of such funds.

Catch an Arab or two or a Mullah or two and hang them high for bringing in the Jih@di money.

You will see that it will stop immediately or at least reduce drastically.



We the Pakistanis must take the responsibility of stopping this illegal money flow, instead of lashing out on third parties. That's like barking on a wrong tree .


peace

For our US "Ally" who insist that they have been on our side for the last 12 years, but don't be discouraged, you still have the Jamaati:


Sunni Ittehad Council issue fatwa against terrorism



LAHORE: At least 50 Islamic scholars belonging to Sunni Ittehad Council issued a fatwa (ruling) in which they condemned terrorism in the country, DawnNews reported.

They also condemned target killings in Karachi and Balochistan, along with sectarianism and suicide attacks.

The fatwa issued declared that suicide attacks are forbidden in Islam, and that those involved in the killing of innocent people are condemned to hell.

According to the fatwa, suicides attacks and related violence smears the name of Islam and weakens Pakistan.

The fatwa also said that the United States is the enemy of Pakistan and the Islamic world. Further stating that any alliance with the US is un-Islamic and illegal.

More Fat fat Fatwas from idiot Mullahs.

What's new in the company of nincompoops.


These Mullahs cannot do much more than killing innocents men women and children.


Where the f was this Sunni Ittehad when an Innocent governor Salman Taseer was brutally murdered by a Sunni Iteehad freak?

Where the heck were this mota chor Mullahs? where?

Sorry to say these Mullahs are the biggest hypocrites in Pakistan. The biggest!

 

[muse]

No proof of your accusation has been recently provided by anyone in Pakistani government (unless I missed this news)
Funding for Wahabis militants come from "Gulf charities" through unofficial channels.
Funding for shia militants come from Iranian "charities" through unofficial channels.
Saudi and UAE governments no longer support the militancy under direct "advice" from the rest of the world including USA and EU.

Shiah militants? You want to create equations where none exist - your right I suppose - hang them? sure I'm all for it, why just 1 0r 2, hang them all.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

A recent survey conducted by Pew Global Attitudes (a project of a research center in Washington) in Pakistan has proven that the 64% of the people in Pakistan see USA as one of the greatest threats to Pakistan. On the other hand only about 9% believe that the US can ever be Pakistan’s ally. However 70% of the Pakistanis who were questioned are absolutely against the Taliban and seek their utter elimination. Another survey conducted for the international broadcaster Al Jazeera by Gallup Pakistan found that 59 percent of Pakistanis felt the greatest threat to the country was the United States rather than the Taliban.

As the report suggests Pakistanis despise the USA but do not side with the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Generally Pakistanis view US unfavourably but they see the militants negatively too.

Unfortunately the Americans cannot come to understand why Pakistanis see them as their foremost enemy rather than the terrorists. On the other hand Pakistanis feel they have been constantly betrayed despite seeing the Americans as allies. They believe they have been used to accomplish USA’s strategic goals and interests in the region and have then been abandoned.

A look at history

The Taliban were formed, supported and funded by the USA in the 1980’s in order to drive away the Soviets from Afghanistan and offset the defeat they suffered to the Communists in the Vietnam War. According to newly opened CIA files USA wanted the Soviets to intervene in Afghanistan and aid was being transferred to Anti communist elements since July 1979 which was before the Soviets had officially invaded.

Pakistan was not always keen to join the war and did so upon USA’s insistence. Sources even claim that Zia Ul Haq did not want to get involved in the war but many promises of opening up military and economic assistance were offered to President Zia by American diplomats to convince him to join the war. This and the promise of a long lasting relationship with the USA convinced Pakistanis.

However by directly interfering in neighbouring Afghanistan on the behest of American urging Pakistan suffered over 120 incidents of terrorism which killed many citizens. One such bombing was the Islamabad depot bombings which were blamed on Najibullah’s Soviet backed Afghan government. USA suffered no losses as they had no troops on the ground and were too far away from the region.

Not surprisingly when the war was over Pakistan was not needed and the country was abandoned. In 1990 military and economic ties were cut off with Pakistan under the Presler Amendment which required proof that Pakistan did not possess a nuclear weapon. Tests by India on the other hand which were actually conducted much earlier were ignored and no sanctions were slapped on India.

Pakistanis also felt betrayed because America itself has one of the largest stockpiles of nuclear weapons in the World and is the only Nation to have used them.

Pakistan’s Nuclear Tests

India conducted its first surprise nuclear test in 1974 known as the “Smiling Buddha.” USA turned a blind eye to the first test but India’s second test in 1998 which followed a similar test by Pakistan almost immediately received international condemnation. Initially sanctions were imposed on both India and Pakistan.

However after a few months the sanctions on India were removed while those on Pakistan remained. Certain military sanctions specially relating to nuclear technology continue till today however no such sanctions are being imposed on India. The differential treatment annoys Pakistanis as India has 10 times Pakistan’s population and is much larger than Pakistan. The military as well is larger than Pakistan’s own with a ratio of 3:1

Furthermore Pakistanis cannot understand why USA signed a nuclear deal with India but is not willing to sign the exact same deal with Islamabad which has sent clear signals that it wants a peaceful nuclear deal with the USA for power generation purposes. Pakistan is facing crippling power shortages that are affecting the daily life of its citizens. In major cities people have to make do without 6-10 hours of electricity in a day.

The relationship today

Americans believe that the aid they are giving Pakistan in the War on Terror is more than enough and is a message to Pakistan to forget the past and move on. However what they don’t seem to understand is that the losses of Pakistan in the WOT have crossed $35.5 Billion (this is an old article: it is now $80 Billion) in damages to Pakistan. The aid does not compensate Pakistan for the losses given that the $11 Billion in aid given as yet is not even a quarter of this figure.

To aggravate things further much of the aid given to Pakistan has still not been delivered and much of it will be eaten up by the administrative costs of the US embassy.

In addition the Americans have expressed no sympathy for the 8000 Pakistani civilians and 2500 (40,000+ deaths till today) soldiers killed in a highly unpopular war but have always pushed Pakistan to do more as if it were their colony.

Many Pakistanis as a result believe that USA is supporting terrorism in their country. The fact that the US has released several Taliban commanders from its custody such as Abdullah Mehsud who have attacked Pakistani Nationals soon after their release has further supported this belief. The latest addition to the long list of such commanders is Mehdi-Mohammed Ghazali who was captured in Pakistan recently and is a Swedish National released from Guantanamo Bay.

The American media has a way of aggravating the situation and pouring salt to the fresh wounds of the Nation. The suggestion that Pakistani nukes may fall in the hands of terrorists only fuels rage and in turn is seen as a scheme to take possession of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons. On the other hand the constant campaigns of accusations aimed at Pakistan’s premier intelligence agency the ISI and the military are seen as an attempt to isolate and destroy the military and ISI so that it cannot stop CIA’s designs in the region.

When it is stated that Pakistan is not serious in the War on Terror despite the death of thousands of its own people it also fuels Anti Americanism. The Pakistanis have now become even more suspicious of the USA because of these media campaigns.

Due to the American policies towards Pakistan in the past and those that still continue today many Pakistanis simply see the terrorist organizations as American agents. For the majority of Pakistanis the USA and Taliban are two sides of the same coin.

Is USA losing Pakistan?

The very attitude of the USA towards Pakistan leaves lingering resentment and rage amongst Pakistanis. It does nothing but make terrorist organizations more powerful.

Where yesterday only a section of the population believed no productive ties could ever develop between Pakistan and USA today this phenomenon is noticeable even amongst the moderates as they see the USA as their sworn enemy. Pakistani analysts now believe it is time for Pakistan to take a tougher stance with the USA and design a policy that stops the tide of rising extremism and ensures Pakistan is not seen as an American lackey.

Most Pakistanis are already suggesting that either the Pakistanis take a tougher stance towards the USA and demand to be treated with the respect they deserve or withdraw from the War completely declaring themselves neutral to both the USA and the Afghan Taliban.

Whatever the case Pakistanis are now adamant to stand up to the United States and present themselves as an independent Nation that has enough spine to say no to the Americans when needed and guard its own interests. US is on the path to losing Pakistan much like it lost Iran in the 1980's.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now this is an old article I wrote but do note it is a valuable discussion topic. Our relationship with US.
Here we can look at a number of things:
1) Is it beneficial? (I believe the article looks at this to some extent and my belief about this is clear.
2) If it is not then what are the alternative solutions and their possible shortfalls.
3) If we are talking about developing a more beneficial or neutral relationship with US how might the country react.

The link to this article is here on Havi Sultan's webspace-do comment or rate please.
@FaujHistorian this is a continuation of our debate but I will start from 2 to answer Muse's question.

the title should be otherwise.

The growing agitation of Americans against Pakistan

 

[haviZsultan]

it is a pity that a Pakistani Think Tanker would belittle his own country while totally ignoring 200+ years old military combat history in the region.

But then my dear dear poster, you are not alone. Even our military generals (who are not intellectuals neither historian) tend to forget that Pakistan is joined at the hip with really sensitive regions of the world.

We cannot afford to give up our interests. Also first there was no derision in my post for the army but there was for the policy makers who fail to take the things I mentioned into account at all.

Some corners are sensitive because of our Easter neighbor,

Some are sensitive due to our Western neighbors, and some due to northern neighbor.

And none of these regions is going away any time soon (at least not in the next 100 years)

What I can say is that you should ignore Pakistan's military history at your own peril.

And thus

Anyone defining and limiting our relationship with the West based solely on WoT doesn't know the Alif Bay of our present nor our past.


This short sighted approach by Pakistani intellectuals (typically left leaning if not downright commies) has made Pakistan a laughing stock in the world.

We never planned ahead for the 60s, nor 80s, nor 90s.

And thus

we have put ourselves through last minute decisions and made them look like crisis management rather than pre-planned well-informed decisions.

This post will take pages after pages to explain our $tupidities in the past,

but please trust me. What our leftie intellectuals are suggesting now will take us to yet another crisis in 5 years or so.

And good natured kind hearted posters like you will yet again pontificate that our relation with the West is only 4 years long, and then we will split like Las Vegas married couple.

Far from it.

The history clearly shows that we have decades if not centuries long co-dependence with the the big powers. And it never was short lived and it never will be.


Thank you.


p.s. Sorry if I come out as a harsh critic. These are just simple statements and please take them as they are. No emotions or disrespect.

I am not ignoring our military history, I am severely criticizing how we lost $80 billion in the war on terror with nothing to show except $10 Billion in Us aid which the government spent on lavish mansions. I don't see any results. We are being defamed worldwide. I believe it is time to re-posture ourselves vis a vis the world and decide which side we are on. China is a rising super-power, we have nothing to lose by piggy-backing with them.

History showed it was short-lived when the presler amendment came about, they opposed us on Siachen and supported India on Kargil. They banned every sale on us faujhistorian after the fall of the Soviets, because we helped them win that war. A historian should remember this fact. No ban on India for smiling buddha either. This relationship is not worth it. Post 2014 we will be abanoned. You can come back to this thread and think of this then.

 

[haviZsultan]

the title should be otherwise.

The growing agitation of Americans against Pakistan

You are absolutely right sir!

 

[Umair Nawaz]

You are absolutely right sir!

dont tell me mr that im right or not tell the MODs to change the title first.

i will be more then happy.

 

[FaujHistorian]

We cannot afford to give up our interests. Also first there was no derision in my post for the army but there was for the policy makers who fail to take the things I mentioned into account at all.





I am not ignoring our military history, I am severely criticizing how we lost $80 billion in the war on terror with nothing to show except $10 Billion in Us aid which the government spent on lavish mansions. I don't see any results. We are being defamed worldwide. I believe it is time to re-posture ourselves vis a vis the world and decide which side we are on. China is a rising super-power, we have nothing to lose by piggy-backing with them.

History showed it was short-lived when the presler amendment came about, they opposed us on Siachen and supported India on Kargil. They banned every sale on us faujhistorian after the fall of the Soviets, because we helped them win that war. A historian should remember this fact. No ban on India for smiling buddha either. This relationship is not worth it. Post 2014 we will be abanoned. You can come back to this thread and think of this then.

My dear dear poster.

When you have a point, you have a point. How could anyone disagree with the cost of ongoing war?


Perhaps we lost $80 billion during the current war.

But then the question is, how much did we lose during 80's Commie war on Afghanistan? $10 billions, $20, $30 or $100 billions?

How much did we lose when we provided Budabair during 60s? $10 billions, $20, $30 or $100 billions?

The reason why I am asking these questions is, that each of these wars be they hot or cold, had an economic impact on Pakistan.

Your focus on just one of these wars does not convey the full story.

The other points you raise are the same that Hamida Bulbul or Gul says. But they are again half truths meant to create leftie commie and now Islamist hysteria, noise, shor sharaba, and ghul ghupara against America.

So please do not become so emotional that you ignore ground realities and end up supporting Islamists and commies.

That's the only point I have.


Americans are no saints, and neither are we.

Country to country cooperation is always a contract, and not some lovey dovey till death do us part type of deal.

As I mentioned earlier,

Western armies and the armies of areas now in Pakistan have cooperated and fought and struggled together for the last 250+ years.

Each time they became much closer during the war in that era, and drifted apart when the war was over.

Nothing special.

This happens whenever armies come together to fight a common enemy,

These common wars had experiences that were good as well as bad impacts. Such is the outcome of any war. As you know war is a be-aach.



You my dear is ignoring future, while I am suggesting is to to be ready for the next war, the next opportunity to cooperate,

And when there is no war,

don't cry hoarse, but calmly figure out how civilians should cooperate while the armies take a breather and get ready for the next one.

And no I am not suggesting a new war. I am simply saying to get ready and be prepared for one.



peace

 

[haviZsultan]

I was thinking of not replying as you have raised some valid points but think I should point them out.

My dear dear poster.

When you have a point, you have a point. How could anyone disagree with the cost of ongoing war?


Perhaps we lost $80 billion during the current war.

At least we are beginning to come to grips with each others views. Brother if you are from a minority community I know what this war means to you and it means the same to everyone. One of my sisters friends was killed in the Ashura blast-he was a Sunni. One of our nationalist members was found dead in Hangu. I want nothing but revenge on them and the most logical solution is cooperating with US. But its backfiring on us and the insurgency has become stronger.

When I look back at the past 9 years all I see is failures and my country being led on when it seems incapable of handling militancy. I am fearing what if we simply can't and what if being seen as a US pawn is the cause of the issues. I raised a number of points that affect us. Also do note I am a secularist with almost same views with Americans on how a nation should be run but their foreign policy has a certain aggression that puts to shame ours. It destroys your pride, your honor, your dignity when you give in to all these things so easy.

But then the question is, how much did we lose during 80's Commie war on Afghanistan? $10 billions, $20, $30 or $100 billions?

How much did we lose when we provided Budabair during 60s? $10 billions, $20, $30 or $100 billions?

The reason why I am asking these questions is, that each of these wars be they hot or cold, had an economic impact on Pakistan.

These are by far the most valuable points you raised though in 1980's again we were siding with the US which had no issue supporting a dictator and the worst Islamist in our history. But history will not look at this as America's fault. Our leader promoted all this jihad and persecuted you. I will die for my Christian brothers in Pakistan and every Christian I have met supports the war. I know you are a specific target for these cave monkeys but perhaps there is an alternate solution that we are missing-that may make the fight easier. Lets face the fact that the US alliance has cost us also-its our mistakes-INDEED but combined with a weak foreign policy they are destructive.

Your focus on just one of these wars does not convey the full story.

The other points you raise are the same that Hamida Bulbul or Gul says. But they are again half truths meant to create leftie commie and now Islamist hysteria, noise, shor sharaba, and ghul ghupara against America.

So please do not become so emotional that you ignore ground realities and end up supporting Islamists and commies.

I am not being emotional. I am forseeing an end to the relationship post 2014. What will we do then? Why don't you admit this point. 80's was our fault but aren't we mistreated in this war. I have researched and researched as a journalist. They can frame anyone and arrest anyone. I saw dozens of cases. My job is only research and I do not like what I am seeing. I have nothing against this relationship if the 12 points I mentioned are adhered to. The relationship can work but the US treats us as a subject not an ally.

Americans are no saints, and neither are we.

Country to country cooperation is always a contract, and not some lovey dovey till death do us part type of deal.

Likin phir it is hamari job to ensure that the alliance is fruitful to us. Perhaps you are right, the mistakes lies with us but we should not falter when it comes to raising these points. If they are ignored then lets piggyback on China. I do not see a problem in this when 90% of our nuclear reactors are setup by Chinese companies, we are about to give them Gwadar port.

As I mentioned earlier,

Western armies and the armies of areas now in Pakistan have cooperated and fought and struggled together for the last 250+ years.

Each time they became much closer during the war in that era, and drifted apart when the war was over.

Nothing special.

That is not justification to ensure that we gain in the relationship and make it as favorable to ourselves as possible. It is our job to ensure this. The blind eye we turned to the offer of F16s to India and the nuke deal tells us that we are failing to advocate our interests and US is intrinsically biased to us. Do note I am neither a commie nor a Islamist.

This happens whenever armies come together to fight a common enemy,

These common wars had experiences that were good as well as bad impacts. Such is the outcome of any war. As you know war is a be-aach.

Even in the war we have differing interests. Why don't we dig deeper. We don't even want Bahawal khan. We had an alliance with his predecessor to keep TTP weak. We want Hakimullah, them Hekmatyar. Look deeper my friend. The signs are right there. The presler amendment is coming again. They have stripped a section of aid already.

You my dear is ignoring future, while I am suggesting is to to be ready for the next war, the next opportunity to cooperate,

And when there is no war,

At the cost of our dignity? Plus the losses as I said are higher than the earnings. FDI has suffered. We have nothing left. We need an alternate policy.

don't cry hoarse, but calmly figure out how civilians should cooperate while the armies take a breather and get ready for the next one.

Cooperate for what. Is it our job to protect our boundaries? I have supported the army through thick and thin but will the army support me even if I am dying? The answer is simple. Army is failing in its duty to the people. The terrorists bomb us daily. We are framed like Afia by US... we have no policy but surrender on each and every front. We failed to get Hakimullah (TTP chief) and we failed to find a balanced, equal relationship and promote our interests vis a vis US.

And no I am not suggesting a new war. I am simply saying to get ready and be prepared for one.

What war are you talking about? I do not propose war with USA. That will have major consequences for Pakistan. Instead diplomacy is our best tool. The solutions with the first steps I gave earlier. Then about China, Iran-I gave later-then proposed Pakistan becomes more assertive-only assertive nations succeed today.

peace

To you to my friend.

 

[FaujHistorian]

......

At least we are beginning to come to grips with each others views.

......

When I look back at the past 9 years all I see is failures and my country being led on when it seems incapable of handling militancy. I am fearing what if we simply can't and what if being seen as a US pawn is the cause of the issues. ....


To you to my friend.

Good!

So I hope you now see the military history of our region.

It is not 1 war here or 1 war there.

It is a continuum. Few years of peace then few years of war. Then it repeats over.

In each of these wars, our objectives both military and economic are joined with the Western armies.

Sometimes we fight overseas (WW-1, WW-2, Korean war, postings in Jordan, and Saudi), and some times we fight locally (Budaber, Afghan war, and 1942 & 2013 Wazirastan).

In summary, we as people of the areas now in Pakistan went to wars with the Western (UK then US) forces for the last 200+ years.

All of these wars were challenging and so is the current war in Afghanistan and Wazirastan.

When in 2014 the war in Afghanistan will be partially over, Wazirastan war will still be there, and yet there will be another one coming in 2018 or perhaps 2020.

As I say it over and over, War is a be-aach.

It is not something women and Eunachs like.


War is a man's thingy. Perhaps $tupid, but still men fight wars and this war is not different.

Those who are running from the current war in Afghanistan or the war in Wazirastan are simply behaving like tribal women.

Sure we have losses, but so do our enemies the TTP goons.


So I urge you to get up, fasten your shoe laces and get to war. If not, then at least support it with your words and with your money.

But for crying out loud, do not do tableegh for turning Pakistani men into Islamist and commie eunuchs. Please.



peace


ps. I urge you to let go of "minority community" labels. I do support equal rights for all Pakistanis. I can say this because as a majority community member, it is my moral duty and in Pakistan's long term interest to have equal rights of everyone. Even for Eunuchs.

pps. And as Pakistanis we must be ready for the 2020 war. The trumpets are already sounding.

 

[anonymus]

They bombed Japan to send a message to entire world and especially Soviet Union. It wasn't an emotional decision. Cold war was in its nascent stage and not many see it.

When they attacked Afghanistan, they went to Iraq instead of hunting Osama because Bush wanted to invade Iraq and also overthrow Saddam as US oil companies were kicked out. US has one policy, either if are with them or them will destroy you by any means, change and topple govt. to get US friendly govt. no matter if its democracy or dictatorship. Their past experience with Dictators like Shah of Iran, Saddam etc. pushed them to Use Democracy and Freedom for countries as major reason.

There are no emotions attached. All are expendables for them as long it is according to their national interest.

And not to forget the massacre that Americans suffered at Iwo jima and Okinawa. An invasion of japanese mainland would have costed upward of million casualties.Japanese fought with such fanaticism that it would make talibs look like hippies.Ending war was a priority for US.

 

[haviZsultan]

Good!

So I hope you now see the military history of our region.

It is not 1 war here or 1 war there.

It is a continuum. Few years of peace then few years of war. Then it repeats over.

In each of these wars, our objectives both military and economic are joined with the Western armies.

Sometimes we fight overseas (WW-1, WW-2, Korean war, postings in Jordan, and Saudi), and some times we fight locally (Budaber, Afghan war, and 1942 & 2013 Wazirastan).

In summary, we as people of the areas now in Pakistan went to wars with the Western (UK then US) forces for the last 200+ years.

All of these wars were challenging and so is the current war in Afghanistan and Wazirastan.

When in 2014 the war in Afghanistan will be partially over, Wazirastan war will still be there, and yet there will be another one coming in 2018 or perhaps 2020.

As I say it over and over, War is a be-aach.

It is not something women and Eunachs like.


War is a man's thingy. Perhaps $tupid, but still men fight wars and this war is not different.

Those who are running from the current war in Afghanistan or the war in Wazirastan are simply behaving like tribal women.

Sure we have losses, but so do our enemies the TTP goons.


So I urge you to get up, fasten your shoe laces and get to war. If not, then at least support it with your words and with your money.

But for crying out loud, do not do tableegh for turning Pakistani men into Islamist and commie eunuchs. Please.



peace


ps. I urge you to let go of "minority community" labels. I do support equal rights for all Pakistanis. I can say this because as a majority community member, it is my moral duty and in Pakistan's long term interest to have equal rights of everyone. Even for Eunuchs.

pps. And as Pakistanis we must be ready for the 2020 war. The trumpets are already sounding.

I am sorry for mistaking you. I am seeing how our completely differing views on foreign policy are

Btw a lot of the things I say are also from my personal experience as an independent journo and researcher. I have seen some things. Btw what war are we preparing for in 2020.

I one day said I would fight beside the Pakistan army against any threat it faced. I don't know why I did, pressure on me from fellow nationalists or what. But when I look back I wonder you know. Isn't it their job to protect us and then I wonder if what I ask for is our right. Terrorists kill us, Americans kill us, Indians fire across the border and do the same as do the Afghans. Its not my job fighting the armies war-even protecting their reputation which I have done since I was a kid-a mushy supporter in the old days.

Lets not predict the future and hope there is no war. I have no clue which country this is pointed at either.

Every “relationship” has its ups and downs, and what makes the U.S. – Pakistan relationship more complex is the national interests of both countries. We must realize that the United States government is answerable to its people in times of crisis, and when American citizens are killed. 9/11 was the last straw when over 3000 of our innocent citizens killed in senseless but organized enemy attacks. This attack was not the first attempt by the enemy to hurt American citizens. Some will argue that the War on Terror was a direct reaction to the attacks of that day, but in reality it was due to the accumulation of targeted attacks all over the world, against our people, and interests, for example the embassy attacks in Africa, Al Khober in Saudi Arabia, and USS Cole in Yemen. The enemy had made their home in that region, and planned the attacks from there. No one can deny that, and the above mentioned Pew Poll indicates that 70% of Pakistanis want what we want – elimination of these terrorists. Isn’t that true?


The last decade has shown that we can work together, not only to defeat the common threat of terrorism, but also to save thousands of lives. Our forces working alongside the Pakistani military achieved that during the 2010 floods which devastated the Pakistani people. We were also there for the Pakistani people who were suffering after the 2005 earthquakes.


The United States is not Pakistan’s enemy. On the contrary, we see Pakistan as an important country in the region, and we acknowledge its contribution towards the WOT. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that Northern Pakistan is still plagued with terror groups that attack our troops and target civilians on both sides of the border. Together we can stand united against ruthless terrorists who kill innocent people without any remorse.


Abdul Quddus
DET-United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command

I am remembering a qoute by Clemenceau here. Basically what you are saying might makes you right. Pakistan and US share no interests. Even in the war on terror we want Hakimullah but your drones do not target that chap.

Mr Quddus, why don't you answer the reasons behind these biases?:

1) Nuke deal with India but refused to Pakistan
2) Davis kills 2 Pakistanis and escapes. There is no proof of Afia being a terrorist and still in jail and will be there forever.
3) Fazlullah hiding in Kunar. Faqir Mohammed's (Ex-Bajaur Chief's) bases in Afghanistan.
4) US refusal to condemn India for the Siachen incursion but raising an outcry on the Kargil one which was made by fauji's after the Siachen debacle when they took 1000 miles of our land.
5) USA's offer to sell better quality F16's to India compared to what they sold us.
6) Framing of Pakistani innocents in the name of terrorism-Seen it, researched it.
7) Maltreatment of Pakistanis in airports and hounding of Pakistani political Organizations in north America. Even secular ones. Yes-this is the only thing they are good at.
8) Support for dictators in Pakistani land. 3 major ones had their backing. Zia was the one who Islamicized Pakistan with their blessing in case you did not notice.
9) Presler Amendment. When we were not needed by USA anymore. Cold war over, Afghanistan in ruins but of course the Soviets disgraced as they wanted that is what came. Military and economic cooperation CUT and mark my words IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN-200% chance and I bet on my life when this war on terror is over this will come again. They will harass us even more than they are now.
10) The blame Pakistan suffers on a daily basis. Pakistan is held responsible for every failure. I believe you think we are responsible. Partly I agree, yes. But you do not know about the successes, Ramzir yousuf, Baradar, Khalid Sheikh (top 9/11 terrorist) were all capture by us.
11) Pakistan counting on US support and not getting any in 1971. Weak point? Leave that then. I think it is too. But consider the rest.
12) Add to this the Indian nuclear test smiling Buddha in 74 being ignored by the US while our military and economy being sanctioned.
13) Add to this the framing of Kashmiri activist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai in a false case as an ISI agent in another attempt to malign ISI

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ion-pakistanis-against-usa.html#ixzz2KAWrI7Mb

Your nations reputation across the globe is being destroyed Mr Quddus. It is like an arrogant bully that wants what it wants at any cost. History proves you have ignored Pakistan's interests grossly.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Every “relationship” has its ups and downs, and what makes the U.S. – Pakistan relationship more complex is the national interests of both countries. We must realize that the United States government is answerable to its people in times of crisis, and when American citizens are killed. 9/11 was the last straw when over 3000 of our innocent citizens killed in senseless but organized enemy attacks. This attack was not the first attempt by the enemy to hurt American citizens. Some will argue that the War on Terror was a direct reaction to the attacks of that day, but in reality it was due to the accumulation of targeted attacks all over the world, against our people, and interests, for example the embassy attacks in Africa, Al Khober in Saudi Arabia, and USS Cole in Yemen. The enemy had made their home in that region, and planned the attacks from there. No one can deny that, and the above mentioned Pew Poll indicates that 70% of Pakistanis want what we want – elimination of these terrorists. Isn’t that true?


The last decade has shown that we can work together, not only to defeat the common threat of terrorism, but also to save thousands of lives. Our forces working alongside the Pakistani military achieved that during the 2010 floods which devastated the Pakistani people. We were also there for the Pakistani people who were suffering after the 2005 earthquakes.


The United States is not Pakistan’s enemy. On the contrary, we see Pakistan as an important country in the region, and we acknowledge its contribution towards the WOT. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that Northern Pakistan is still plagued with terror groups that attack our troops and target civilians on both sides of the border. Together we can stand united against ruthless terrorists who kill innocent people without any remorse.


Abdul Quddus
DET-United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command

On a recent visit to DC, our foreign minister made it clear that the objectives are the same but the "way about going things" is rather different.

They say "might is right" (militarily speaking) but that logic doesnt apply per se in non-conventional warfare. You and I both know that.