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The Grand Modi illusion

I have no problem whatsoever with a certain quota of reservation for a certain economic percentile of my people.

I will not stand judgment on his poor choices or the rigor of his labor.

Eventually you will find the number shrinking below the line you chalk out.

How and where you chalk out that line, and how often you review it, and the factors you account for while doing the same, that's where the game lies.

Eventually, people automatically move upward.

With the other (caste based), they may or may not move upward. Some never do. But get left out because they were high born. Some long since did. But still enjoy the benefits because you can become rich from poor, but you cannot become a high born from a low born.

And the final point of removal of the system is either arbitrary in terms of time,

Or

eventually

Economic.

Why wrap your arm around your head to pinch your nose, when its so much easier just reaching up and doing the same?

I have a problem with basing reservations on poverty because as I said it incentivizes poverty. I will stand in judgement for poor choices a person makes. I do not see why the alcoholic/drug addict lazy asshole should be given a job just because he does not meet the economic criteria than a person who never made poor choices. Eventually, the numbers do not shrink. They increase as has been proved even by our own caste based reservation system.

Being high born or low born is bullshit and one cannot move up and down that order is bullshit. No one will be willing to buy that in this day and age. As I said SC/ST are not being given reservation because the society considers them low born today, but because of the circumstances they are in for the past societal behavior. Even here, I am all for excluding the creamy layer, meaning those who are well off. Also a strict time bound reservation should see this menace of reservation end for all time.
 
Prove it. Or forever hold your silence. No third party source. Quote the Veda directly. Leave it to us all. Right here.

First of All, the vedas are not the bibles of hindus. Leave me aside but I have never seen any hindu with a copy of a Veda and you want me to quote directly from Vedas in sanskrit or quit. Very Nice! But today is the time of internet, google and you have access to all the information but you dont want any indirect reference. Thats trying to suppress the truth as much as suppresing the shudras. I have no evidence with me but I challenge you to prove me wrong that the term "shudra" has not been mentioned in Vedas. I read somewhere at some point of time that the term shudra finds mention several times in one of the later vedas probably Yajurveda. And the Smritis which is equaly reverred to hindus became the vehicle of assault against so called shudras. Smritis are to Vedas what sharias are to Holy Qur'an....as per my understanding. I give below a webpage for your reference that has even sanskrit verses..

Searching Alternate Narratives: मनु स्मृति: The Assault on Shudras.

Now dont drag me into a debate on hinduism. Thats not my intention. My comment was in defence of the Indian constitution which was being blamed for casteism and discrimination. A lot of people who comment on reservations dont know the ABC of Poona Pact between Gandhi & Ambedkar.
 
First of All, the vedas are not the bibles of hindus. Leave me aside but I have never seen any hindu with a copy of a Veda and you want me to quote directly from Vedas in sanskrit or quit. Very Nice! But today is the time of internet, google and you have access to all the information but you dont want any indirect reference

Then when you do not have any references from Vedas to prove that Vedas were oppressive to Shudras, why did you claim such. Again, if Vedas are not Hindus bible as you seem to know, what was the point again in claiming that Hindus oppress Shudras because of Vedas? Do you think you can lie so shamelessly and get away with it by being so brazen about it?
 
which veda have you read? Vedas talk of metaphysical concepts not caste and all.Please get educated properly,you are talking about manusmriti and all those so called shudras had a chance to become a dwija,they didn't take it up.

There are many shudra borns who have gone on to do many different things including become brahmins.
you are probably right. It was the smritis that talked of violence against shudras in the name of vedas.
But I disagree that the shudras had any chance to become high caste as they were debarred from not only vedas but even basic education. Now i have seen the SC people mastering sanskrit but they can not become a brahmin. But there is an apparent a little positive change in the attitude towards them in last 30 years.
 
I have a problem with basing reservations on poverty because as I said it incentivizes poverty. I will stand in judgement for poor choices a person makes. I do not see why the alcoholic/drug addict lazy asshole should be given a job just because he does not meet the economic criteria than a person who never made poor choices. Eventually, the numbers do not shrink. They increase as has been proved even by our own caste based reservation system.

Being high born or low born is bullshit and one cannot move up and down that order is bullshit. No one will be willing to buy that in this day and age. As I said SC/ST are not being given reservation because the society considers them low born today, but because of the circumstances they are in for the past societal behavior. Even here, I am all for excluding the creamy layer, meaning those who are well off. Also a strict time bound reservation should see this menace of reservation end for all time.

I am tired.

We are going in circles.
 
Thats trying to suppress the truth as much as suppresing the shudras. I have no evidence with me but I challenge you to prove me wrong that the term "shudra" has not been mentioned in Vedas. I read somewhere at some point of time that the term shudra finds mention several times in one of the later vedas probably Yajurveda

How is your lying not an attempt at trying to tar the Hindu faith, but others pointing out your falsehood trying to suppress the Shudras? Even if the term Shudra gets mentioned in Vedas how is it a pointer to suppression?
 
Then when you do not have any references from Vedas to prove that Vedas were oppressive to Shudras, why did you claim such. Again, if Vedas are not Hindus bible as you seem to know, what was the point again in claiming that Hindus oppress Shudras because of Vedas? Do you think you can lie so shamelessly and get away with it by being so brazen about it?

You are referring to the following comments at #37..

Those telling casteism is not part of hinduism should know that Vedas have advised inhuman treatment for shudras, Lord Rama killed Shambooka only because he was a shudra.... meaning the caste discrimination was prevalent during Ramrajya.

I correct myself that it was Smritis in the name of Vedas that advised inhuman treatment of sudras.
 
You are referring to the following comments at #37..

Those telling casteism is not part of hinduism should know that Vedas have advised inhuman treatment for shudras, Lord Rama killed Shambooka only because he was a shudra.... meaning the caste discrimination was prevalent during Ramrajya.

I correct myself that it was Smritis in the name of Vedas that advised inhuman treatment of sudras.

You are wrong once again. Smritis do not advise inhuman treatment of Shudras leave alone doing so in the name of Vedas.

Now coming to Ramayana, which is neither the Vedas nor Manu Smriti, Rama's reasons for killing Shambuka were not that he was a Shudra but because his intention behind his austerities were capture of Indraloka. This instance was producing bad karma which resulted in death of a boy which in those times were not heard of or natural.

By the way do you know what is a Shudra?
 
You are wrong once again. Smritis do not advise inhuman treatment of Shudras leave alone doing so in the name of Vedas.

Now coming to Ramayana, which is neither the Vedas nor Manu Smriti, Rama's reasons for killing Shambuka were not that he was a Shudra but because his intention behind his austerities were capture of Indraloka. This instance was producing bad karma which resulted in death of a boy which in those times were not heard of or natural.

By the way do you know what is a Shudra?
Please go thru the site as referred in my reply at #77.
I am not interested in a religious debate. Why I referred all these is also mentioned in my above reply #77.
 
When a 22-year-old clone of Prime Minister Narendra Modi took Ahmedabad by storm on Aug 25 with his fiery rhetoric and an impressive ability to pull in massive crowds that rivalled the Gujarat strongman’s best performance, it was a moment of shock and awe for the ruling BJP and its ultimate leader. As Hardik Patel, given to posing with a gun in hand or brandishing a sword on the dais, had much of India riveted as he rallied half a million members of his community in a show of strength, the incongruities were hard to ignore.

Hardik Patel, travelling across the country to form caste alliances while openly taunting Modi, is demanding quotas for his affluent Patel community in university admission and government jobs, an affirmative action that is reserved for the socially and economically deprived lower castes. The sharper irony is that the Patels, the biggest beneficiaries of Modi’s business-friendly policies, are now turning on a party that they brought to power in the 1990s, partly by opposing the very same caste reservations it is now brazenly seeking for itself.

For many liberal critics who have been railing against the hollowness of Modi’s policies for long, Hardik Patel is a welcome entrant to the political theatre despite the unease caused by his extreme right-wing worldview with its markedly communal antipathies. The truth is that his aggressive politics is finally proving to be more effective in unravelling many of the illusions spun by Modi over the dozen odd years that he ran Gujarat while marking out his strategy to capture Delhi. The most alluring of the illusions that he peddled to desperate young people across the country while campaigning as the BJP’s prime ministerial candidate in the 2014 parliamentary election was the promise of jobs and growth opportunities to all through the so-called Gujarat model of development.

The revolt of the Patels of Gujarat is turning out to be a reality check for the Modi government.
The revolt of the Patels or Patidars (landholders) of Gujarat is turning out to be the best reality check on this model whose achievements sceptical analysts have hotly contested. The Patels are known for the most part as successful businessmen at home and abroad and for their political clout with more than a third of the lawmakers coming from their community. For such a well-placed community to seek Other Backward Class or OBC status is the strongest rebuff yet to Modi.

The shrinking economy which has led to closure of thousands of small and medium industries coupled with a dropping wage rate could be the underlying reason why the caste cauldron is bubbling again. No state has been as doggedly opposed to reservations as Gujarat, and no community has been as doggedly opposed to reservations as the Patels who were the first to launch a campaign against reservations for the most oppressed and deprived groups such as the Dalits (Untouchables) and Adivasis (tribespeople) and later the OBCs.

When KHAM, a unique alliance of the lower caste Kshatriyas (OBCs), Harijans, Adivasis and Muslims, formed by Congress leader Madhavsinh Solanki, proved too strong, the violent protests by the Patels were shrewdly turned into a communal conflict by Hindutva organisations. Solanki, in a recent interview, says that in the 1981 riots when the Patels ran amok attacking Harijans, Indira Gandhi asked him to hold firm and airlifted special police forces from neighbouring states to quell the riots. However in 1985, “I was told by leaders in Delhi that Pakistan will feel Muslims in Gujarat are not safe and might go to the UN”.

That’s how caste politics tends to play out in India, as the brilliant jurist and economist Bhimrao Ambedkar points out. In his seminal 1936 treatise Annihilation of Caste, Ambedkar writes: “Hindu society as such does not exist. It is only a collection of castes. Each caste is conscious (only) of its existence. Its survival is the be all and end all of its existence. A caste has no feeling that it is affiliated to other castes except when there is a Hindu-Muslim riot. On all other occasions each caste endeavours to segregate itself and to distinguish itself from other castes.”

The RSS, from which the BJP draws its philosophy, is opposed to caste quotas, citing the merit argument to say reservations would be unfair to the poor strata of the upper castes. But the BJP, although it has always lashed out at the vote bank politics of the Congress, has been equally cynical in its quota politics. In 2000, Jats in Rajasthan were classified as OBC, a prompt reward for the community’s support to the BJP in the 1999 parliamentary elections. Nor has Modi shied away from using his lower caste origins at the hustings. Modi is a ghanchi, a prosperous merchant class that enjoys a monopoly of the oil trade but given OBC status.

The BJP’s politics and its ingrained communal bias leave the Muslims out of the quota reckoning although the party claims it would favour reservations based on economic criteria. A few months ago in Maharashtra, despite a court order striking down 16pc reservations for the dominant Maratha caste, the BJP government decided to go ahead with it by issuing a new ordinance, while a 5pc educational quota for Muslims upheld by the judges was quietly scrapped.

The communal antigen is always at work. In the same week that Patel stunned the BJP government and its Hindutva cohorts into shocked silence, a carefully nuanced speech by Vice President Hamid Ansari on the need for affirmative action for the neediest of Muslims had the saffron brigade out in full cry. Unbecoming of his office, shrieked a leader of the VHP.

Speaking at the golden jubilee of the Majlis-i-Mushawarat, Ansari had merely cited the Sachar Committee Report of 2006 which had found the average condition of Muslims comparable to or even worse than that of the historically most backward communities, the scheduled castes and tribes. Choosing to term that a communal statement, the VHP declared that it would “push Muslims in dark alleys of dissatisfaction whose consequences will be dangerous”.

Would that imply the Patels once again in full war paint will do no harm?

The writer is a journalist based in New Delhi.

The Modi illusion - Newspaper - DAWN.COM


Hardik Patel for India's PM position in 2019!
 
Please go thru the site as referred in my reply at #77.
I am not interested in a religious debate. Why I referred all these is also mentioned in my above reply #77.

When you do not know anything at all about Hinduism, it is better to keep your mouth shut about it. Your defense of your outright lies was just as lame ***.

You are right in so far as people do not know about the Poona pact between Gandhi and Ambedkar.
 
When you do not know anything at all about Hinduism, it is better to keep your mouth shut about it. Your defense of your outright lies was just as lame ***.

You are right in so far as people do not know about the Poona pact between Gandhi and Ambedkar.
you are just dragging yourself for nothing. I still say that "casteism is a bane of hinduism". you prove my statement wrong or behave yourself. Unlike you, the hinduism has been a very liberal religion to accommodate criticism and even to take corrective steps. Its quite unhindu to react like a radical towards a constructive criticism.
 
First of All, the vedas are not the bibles of hindus. Leave me aside but I have never seen any hindu with a copy of a Veda and you want me to quote directly from Vedas in sanskrit or quit. Very Nice! But today is the time of internet, google and you have access to all the information but you dont want any indirect reference. Thats trying to suppress the truth as much as suppresing the shudras. I have no evidence with me but I challenge you to prove me wrong that the term "shudra" has not been mentioned in Vedas. I read somewhere at some point of time that the term shudra finds mention several times in one of the later vedas probably Yajurveda. And the Smritis which is equaly reverred to hindus became the vehicle of assault against so called shudras. Smritis are to Vedas what sharias are to Holy Qur'an....as per my understanding. I give below a webpage for your reference that has even sanskrit verses..

Searching Alternate Narratives: मनु स्मृति: The Assault on Shudras.

Now dont drag me into a debate on hinduism. Thats not my intention. My comment was in defence of the Indian constitution which was being blamed for casteism and discrimination. A lot of people who comment on reservations dont know the ABC of Poona Pact between Gandhi & Ambedkar.


1. smriti is anything writte down. If you write a a book it will be called RaziaSmriti

2. The reference you give in #77 says that Manu Smriti does NOT say cut off a Shudra's ears or tongue for hearing or uttering the Vedas

I haven't read through this entire thread so won't interject too much but hope this helps
 
you are just dragging yourself for nothing. I still say that "casteism is a bane of hinduism". you prove my statement wrong or behave yourself. Unlike you, the hinduism has been a very liberal religion to accommodate criticism and even to take corrective steps. Its quite unhindu to react like a radical towards a constructive criticism.

You were caught lying shamelessly and try to cover it up by making flowery speech about how liberal it is and think that is going to wash?

Casteism is not a bane of Hinduism nor was it ever given that it was the upper caste Hindus who were always the reformers in Hinduism. It was the upper caste leaders who chose Ambedkar to write down the constitution. It was the upper castes congress leaders who chose a constitution that gave universal adult franchise to all Indians regardless of caste, religion, sect, or gender. That bane that people like you to like to speak about has never been integral to Hinduism at all. One of the reasons Dalits never felt alienated from Hinduism or upper castes Hindus never grudged sharing equal rights with lower castes.

You who do not know a bit about Hinduism come here to lecture Hindus about what Hinduism is all about? First go and learn the truth about your own religion before you lecture people about theirs. We do not do true Hindu or false Hindu unlike Muslims so I was being Quite a Hindu when I reacted to your radical propaganda against Hinduism.
 
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