The Grand Modi illusion

[Samudra Manthan]

good point and true for the most part but it's still rampant in rural India, hopefully that diminishes with development and economic empowerment but even among the "elite", while it might be mostly relevant and practiced wrt marriage, some do cling on very tightly to the perceived prestige, and from what I've seen, tam-brams are the worst, I've been told off as a lower level brahmin myself , but that was among friends having a beer, but it's telling of how we're all structured, it should be gone by the next generation.

Funnily enough, it is tam-brams that I find to be one of the gentlest people who stand up to injustice more than anyone else.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Vedas have advised inhuman treatment for shudras

Prove it. Or forever hold your silence. No third party source. Quote the Veda directly. Leave it to us all. Right here.

 

[truthseeker2010]

this article is a reality check for indians.

 

[Samudra Manthan]

Please man.

You are comparing dole to reservation.

Putting a fish into a man's mouth vs teaching him how to fish.

Nah, reservation is not just meant because someone is poor. It is in a way compensating for their lack of social capital more than economic potential. When I say social capital, it is all those social equities that a person has gathered for being born say in an educated family, a family with connections, educated friends, better social surroundings, etc. etc. None of these need be related to economics. Take example of a Brahmin for instance, he/she is most likely to be born in an educated family, have an gallery of relatives who hold responsible positions in govt or private sector and can be a guide/inspiration to him growing up. The information this kid gathers, the intelligence he builds up interacting with people in such environment just cannot be replicated by say an Adivasi child growing up in a forest or a schedule caste boy growing up in a rural setting. If both were to appear for the same competitive exam, it is natural the Brahmin boy/girl would ace the Adivasi or the schedule caste child pretty much every time. Then people will cry about how Merit should be the only criteria. Was it only merit of the Brahmin boy which helped in this situation?

What is reservation if not dole in a way?

 

[ssethii]

I would like to hear from Indian Muslims about this caste system and how they get along with it.

 

[vsdoc]

Nah, reservation is not just meant because someone is poor. It is in a way compensating for their lack of social capital more than economic potential. When I say social capital, it is all those social equities that a person has gathered for being born say in an educated family, a family with connections, educated friends, better social surroundings, etc. etc. None of these need be related to economics. Take example of a Brahmin for instance, he/she is most likely to be born in an educated family, have an gallery of relatives who hold responsible positions in govt or private sector and can be a guide/inspiration to him growing up. The information this kid gathers, the intelligence he builds up interacting with people in such environment just cannot be replicated by say an Adivasi child growing up in a forest or a schedule caste boy growing up in a rural setting. If both were to appear for the same competitive exam, it is natural the Brahmin boy/girl would ace the Adivasi or the schedule caste child pretty much every time. Then people will cry about how Merit should be the only criteria. Was it only merit of the Brahmin boy which helped in this situation?

What is reservation if not dole in a way?

All of your social capital deficit (in addition to the primary economic capital) is bypassed and fast-forwarded/over-leapt by economic reservation.

With money, the social deficit gap reduces over time. Or even if it does not, it really strengthens the middle finger of the recipients of the state largesse.

Dole is putting food in someone's mouth.

Reservation is equipping him with the tools to earn his food.

They are nowhere on the same planet of being the same.

 

[gau8av]

Funnily enough, it is tam-brams that I find to be one of the gentlest people who stand up to injustice more than anyone else.

from those who I've encountered, they are almost always the highest educated people, not surprising, then, that their views are in line with said educational qualifications and the worldly wisdom that comes with it.

still find it hilariously funny though

 

[Samudra Manthan]

All of your social capital deficit (in addition to the primary economic capital) is bypassed and fast-forwarded/over-leapt by economic reservation.

With money, the social deficit gap reduces over time. Or even if it does not, it really strengthens the middle finger of the recipients of the state largesse.

Dole is putting food in someone's mouth.

Reservation is equipping him with the tools to earn his food.

They are nowhere on the same planet of being the same.

Caste based reservation was meant to be time bound and if strictly implemented should have been done away with by now. The fact that the economy never got built and half the country never had schools, electricity, or anything to avail any reservation benefits is what kept the system going until now. If strictly implemented, cream layer excluded, then in another generation or two this reservation can be done away with, because there would be no social deficit as you mentioned.

Poverty though is relative and even the richest countries on the planet have poverty. A reservation system based on poverty will never be done away with. A man getting job because of the poor choices he made is way different than a man getting a job for the social circumstance he was born in.

 

[gau8av]

Dole is putting food in someone's mouth.

Reservation is equipping him with the tools to earn his food.

very well put

and we need a bit of both here, but the criteria for each needs to be reassessed.

but our problem with poverty is a wound we need to cauterize, there is no other way, left are too sissy, someone take them out of the room while we work on it.

 

[Samudra Manthan]

from those who I've encountered, they are almost always the highest educated people, not surprising, then, that their views are in line with said educational qualifications and the worldly wisdom that comes with it.

still find it hilariously funny though

Yes, they are highly educated, minus any hubris that usually comes associated with this status.

 

[Levina]

Charan kaha hai aapke devi ji?

Why?

 

[vsdoc]

Caste based reservation was meant to be time bound and if strictly implemented should have been done away with by now. The fact that the economy never got built and half the country never had schools, electricity, or anything to avail any reservation benefits is what kept the system going until now. If strictly implemented, cream layer excluded, then in another generation or two this reservation can be done away with, because there would be no social deficit as you mentioned.

Please.

They are a vote bank. As important if not more than what the Muslims are.

Lets not find fancy excuses?

Poverty though is relative and even the richest countries on the planet have poverty. A reservation system based on poverty will never be done away with. A man getting job because of the poor choices he made is way different than a man getting a job for the social circumstance he was born in.

I have no problem whatsoever with a certain quota of reservation for a certain economic percentile of my people.

I will not stand judgment on his poor choices or the rigor of his labor.

Eventually you will find the number shrinking below the line you chalk out.

How and where you chalk out that line, and how often you review it, and the factors you account for while doing the same, that's where the game lies.

Eventually, people automatically move upward.

With the other (caste based), they may or may not move upward. Some never do. But get left out because they were high born. Some long since did. But still enjoy the benefits because you can become rich from poor, but you cannot become a high born from a low born.

And the final point of removal of the system is either arbitrary in terms of time,

Or

eventually

Economic.

Why wrap your arm around your head to pinch your nose, when its so much easier just reaching up and doing the same?

 

[Samudra Manthan]

Please.

They are a vote bank. As important if not more than what the Muslims are.

Lets not find fancy excuses?

No, they were not. SC/ST reservation came up right at the time the constitution was formed and was given a time frame. It is OBC reservation which was due to vote bank. As I said you could go the economics ways, and still majority recipient of reservations would still be SC/ST.

 

[vsdoc]

No, they were not. SC/ST reservation came up right at the time the constitution was formed and was given a time frame. It is OBC reservation which was due to vote bank. As I said you could go the economics ways, and still majority recipient of reservations would still be SC/ST.

Please read the rest of my post.

You reach economics either way.

One way you have a natural stop. Or constant re-adjustment.

The other is skewed, arbitrary, and eventually economic.

 

[Levina]

Class is a Hindu problem? I thought the Greeks, and in recent times the French, a German and the Russians did a lot of work on that front. But wait. Let's just bash the Hindus.

Hinduism precedes Romans and Greeks.