The Fall Out from SCO Modi and Sharif Meeting

[salarsikander]

nsulting leaders isn't allowed. Nawaz ain't a leader. He's a traitor to the Nation, to the Army and specially to the sacrifices of the motherland.

Son,

Keep your childish emotions to yourself. He ain't a leader or he is, will be decided by the citizen of Pakistan and not by some Indian troll !

 

[Foxtrot-Bravo]

Son,

Keep your childish emotions to yourself. He ain't a leader or he is, will be decided by the citizen of Pakistan and not by some Indian troll !

Chap, Anything, Even put politics aside. Being a Pakistani, I can't forget your Leaders Leadership in Kargil War.

 

[salarsikander]

Hi,

Chap, Anything, Even put politics aside. Being a Pakistani, I can't forget your Leaders Leadership in Kargil War.

Hi,

Your are more than welcome to quote me on another thread ( by the way I have never ever supported PML N) You would know this, but since you are very young and new to this forum you just decided to open your big mouth and to judge people from one post !

EDIT: The childish attitude is prominent from your reply which is not even related the post that you quoted, Because losing an argument means losing a brownie point, aint that true ?

 

[iioal malik]

Hahaha .. indian and their sore dumb evil nonsense mind towards Pakistan .this old dirty blame game of establishment being behind every decision making in Pakistan getting boring like a flop Bollywood movie . Modi being tea man showed why there shouldn't be more tea seller as prime minister of a country ....

Prime minister Sharif true class act hats off to him trying to work with this idiot tea seller despite knowing Modi who is seating on the lap of RAW And indian army in every decision making ....

 

[Bang Galore]

No they are not on the same page.

The Military and Pakistani People would have preferred that " KASHMIR ISSUE " was kept at the center of the agreement.

However the lowlife PM of Pakistan sold out the Kashmiris and their legitimate cause.

Which is why this agreement is not worth the paper it is written on.

Aaah, so the Pakistani government's words have no value then & India should not waste its time with a dialogue with them?

My own view is far more cynical. Nawaz Sharif has been around for a long time, the man is clearly not without talents nor is he stupid. This is a man who was brought under pressure just last year by the military through a series of moves by third parties -I'm referring to IK's occupation of the capital etc. To believe that the man who then bought his peace with the army is now again suddenly doing his own thing against the wishes of the army & on the issue of India is beyond logic.

There are two possible explanations here. One is that NS is clearly doing his own loony thing with no establishment backing which begs the question as to what purpose could be served by India dealing with him.

The second explanation is one where a certain amount of cunningness is involved. According to standard Pakistani story telling in the "Aman ki Asha" types is that the Pakistani military is stymieing the civilians from making attempts to make peace with India & that India should support the civilians, i.e. NS & co. by showing necessary flexibility & offering concessions. The argument is that there are two "Sharifs" (NS & RS) in the picture but only one of them is actually 'Sharif' (NS) while the other is really a 'badmash'(RS). This is something that is lapped up by many, both in Pakistan & by many in India. My view is that this simply does not add up & that there is no real way that NS with all his experience would take the risk in face of army opposition. That would mean that there are no "sharifs" here only two "badmashes" and one is conveniently playing the role of "sharif" while the other dons the role of the "badmash", a case of 'good cop' & 'bad cop' really to extract as many concessions as possible.

I see many Indians fall for this line of thinking, a case of classic wooly headedness in my view. We would be much better off not being suckered by this and treat any Pakistani double talk as just that. It is a Pakistani problem whether NS is on his own or merely role playing.

@genmirajborgza786, @OrionHunter

 

[Dubious]

I don't think you totally understand the prevailing dynamics between the Political and Military Establishments of Pakistan.

There are matters that the Military Establishment weighs in on and other matters that are left for the Prime Minister and his team to manage.

Its called indian hallucination that they have a PhD in Pakistan you find it all over PDF they go along these lines:

We all know

And it shows just how much they know.....and no amount of explaining will make them drop "their knowledge"

 

[Foxtrot-Bravo]

Hi,


Hi,

Your are more than welcome to quote me on another thread ( by the way I have never ever supported PML N) You would know this, but since you are very young and new to this forum you just decided to open your big mouth and to judge people from one post !

EDIT: The childish attitude is prominent from your reply which is not even related the post that you quoted, Because losing an argument means losing a brownie point, aint that true ?

We are discussing our leaders and Nawaz Sharif. So, what about his steps in Kargil War? Does it sound out of topic to you? Seriously!!

 

[salarsikander]

We are discussing our leaders and Nawaz Sharif. So, what about his steps in Kargil War? Does it sound out of topic to you? Seriously!!

Hi,

Alright, so if you wanna make fool of yourself, let it be. I know your hormones are raging at this tender age.

Show me one post where I have supported PLMN actions? just show me?

How much do you know about me ? That you started to judge me from one single post, are you serious?

whats your age 18 -19 still in teens kid? Just the other day you got told off from our senior and most respected member for acting too smart, didn't we eh?

As for the Ganja jani. The only reason why i wouldn't tolerate any insult against him or any other person for that matter is because it is our right as a pakistani to grill, skin or mince him. He answerable to us ! not to some Indian. You can criticize him for as much as you want, for all i care (actually he deserves it) but if another non-Pakistani does that, I won't tolerate that . They have no effing right to say !

I will say this again kid, stop judging people from one post. and grow some brains. What i said was not in context of what you thought with your tiny brain.

Stop taking it personally and trying to settle a score with me, you will only end up in making a fool of yourself , like the one, you're doing right now.

Spend some time on forum, gather knowledge of who speaks what, before opening your mouth and spewing shi*

 

[waz]

@Horus @Oscar @waz @Jungibaaz
I remember that insulting of leaders was not allowed, Do we still have that policy here ?

Not that I'm aware of bro.

 

[IndoUS]

Not that I'm aware of bro.

I believe the rule is no disrespect of leaders such as Jinnah and Gandhi is in effect since they are respectively father of nation. I believe PM and Presidents are free game, though no off the top insults.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Aaah, so the Pakistani government's words have no value then & India should not waste its time with a dialogue with them?

My own view is far more cynical. Nawaz Sharif has been around for a long time, the man is clearly not without talents nor is he stupid. This is a man who was brought under pressure just last year by the military through a series of moves by third parties -I'm referring to IK's occupation of the capital etc. To believe that the man who then bought his peace with the army is now again suddenly doing his own thing against the wishes of the army & on the issue of India is beyond logic.

There are two possible explanations here. One is that NS is clearly doing his own loony thing with no establishment backing which begs the question as to what purpose could be served by India dealing with him.

The second explanation is one where a certain amount of cunningness is involved. According to standard Pakistani story telling in the "Aman ki Asha" types is that the Pakistani military is stymieing the civilians from making attempts to make peace with India & that India should support the civilians, i.e. NS & co. by showing necessary flexibility & offering concessions. The argument is that there are two "Sharifs" (NS & RS) in the picture but only one of them is actually 'Sharif' (NS) while the other is really a 'badmash'(RS). This is something that is lapped up by many, both in Pakistan & by many in India. My view is that this simply does not add up & that there is no real way that NS with all his experience would take the risk in face of army opposition. That would mean that there are no "sharifs" here only two "badmashes" and one is conveniently playing the role of "sharif" while the other dons the role of the "badmash", a case of 'good cop' & 'bad cop' really to extract as many concessions as possible.

I see many Indians fall for this line of thinking, a case of classic wooly headedness in my view. We would be much better off not being suckered by this and treat any Pakistani double talk as just that. It is a Pakistani problem whether NS is on his own or merely role playing.

@genmirajborgza786, @OrionHunter

not only that , but what the Pro-Establishment folks forgets is that the most important element which is , this meeting was arranged by China & Russia who wanted both India & Pakistan to talk , so the joint statement has the direct backing of Russia & China & tacitly The U.S in this matter , & the military establishment does not have much option but to go along with it , & the recent disclosure of the Chinese State Media of the Downed Drone to be Made in China , is a direct indication of the backing of Russia & China in this Matter , its a good beginning that both PM Nawaz & PM Modi Talked , thus leaving those that oppose peace with India with their usual "its the Bloody civilian Rhetoric" &
Scapegoating Nawaz for all the ills , is the most convenient way to go about it

@Syed.Ali.Haider

 

[acid rain]

Aaah, so the Pakistani government's words have no value then & India should not waste its time with a dialogue with them?

My own view is far more cynical. Nawaz Sharif has been around for a long time, the man is clearly not without talents nor is he stupid. This is a man who was brought under pressure just last year by the military through a series of moves by third parties -I'm referring to IK's occupation of the capital etc. To believe that the man who then bought his peace with the army is now again suddenly doing his own thing against the wishes of the army & on the issue of India is beyond logic.

There are two possible explanations here. One is that NS is clearly doing his own loony thing with no establishment backing which begs the question as to what purpose could be served by India dealing with him.

The second explanation is one where a certain amount of cunningness is involved. According to standard Pakistani story telling in the "Aman ki Asha" types is that the Pakistani military is stymieing the civilians from making attempts to make peace with India & that India should support the civilians, i.e. NS & co. by showing necessary flexibility & offering concessions. The argument is that there are two "Sharifs" (NS & RS) in the picture but only one of them is actually 'Sharif' (NS) while the other is really a 'badmash'(RS). This is something that is lapped up by many, both in Pakistan & by many in India. My view is that this simply does not add up & that there is no real way that NS with all his experience would take the risk in face of army opposition. That would mean that there are no "sharifs" here only two "badmashes" and one is conveniently playing the role of "sharif" while the other dons the role of the "badmash", a case of 'good cop' & 'bad cop' really to extract as many concessions as possible.

I see many Indians fall for this line of thinking, a case of classic wooly headedness in my view. We would be much better off not being suckered by this and treat any Pakistani double talk as just that. It is a Pakistani problem whether NS is on his own or merely role playing.

@genmirajborgza786, @OrionHunter

It isn't as complicated as you make out to be..The light in the top chamber of the house isn't too bright and too United to come up with intrinsic FP and long term planning.

The simple fact of the matter is democracy in pakistan exists because of outside pressure (and some level of inside pressure)..

The establishment would prefer complete control over itself and it's actions and it's share of the budget and it's heroic status among the masses..

What has happened over the years is the internal situation both economically and security wise has gone so bad that it does not want to be the fall guy to take the blame for it..It would much rather prefer the civilians to take the fall for it. ..besides, there is a democracy at the chair.

The bogeyman for the army has been India and it makes its big bucks from this threat..any consideration on that front is taboo. Nawaz sincerely does seem to want to move ahead but is actually dancing on a rope dangling over a a pit full of snakes and reptiles..but the dharnas and the media trials and the corruption charges etc has effectively reduced his power.

 

[Bang Galore]

It isn't as complicated as you make out to be..The light in the top chamber of the house isn't too bright and too United to come up with intrinsic FP and long term planning.

The simple fact of the matter is democracy in pakistan exists because of outside pressure (and some level of inside pressure)..

The establishment would prefer complete control over itself and it's actions and it's share of the budget and it's heroic status among the masses..

What has happened over the years is the internal situation both economically and security wise has gone so bad that it does not want to be the fall guy to take the blame for it..It would much rather prefer the civilians to take the fall for it. ..besides, there is a democracy at the chair.

The bogeyman for the army has been India and it makes its big bucks from this threat..any consideration on that front is taboo. Nawaz sincerely does seem to want to move ahead but is actually dancing on a rope dangling over a a pit full of snakes and reptiles..but the dharnas and the media trials and the corruption charges etc has effectively reduced his power.

Yes & no. I put forward a possible scenario, not necessarily that no other possibility exists. Taking all your points as a given, you still have to explain why Nawaz Sharif who knows all that you said, would simply put his face on a target if he knows, as he should, that he simply cannot go anywhere without army support. What possible reasoning can be offered up as to why he agreed to the kind of joint statement that he did, unless he is inclined towards sadomasochism ? Do you think that it is logical that he attempts to do something with India knowing fully well that he is waving a red rag (if they are not on board) to the army & getting his backside chewed off by every two bit news reporter & analyst along with handing a stick to his opponents? Politicians and especially successful ones like NS are very good on self-preservation, no one is automatically inclined to commit suicide.

My point remains simple. There are many in Pakistan & enough useful idiots on our side who get taken in by the "empower the civilians" against the army argument by making concessions. That is a foolish policy because either way, it won't deliver results. You make the concessions & the "civilians" may still not be "able" to take on the military & all you are left with is a bare cupboard with nothing to offer in return. It's a win-win situation for the Pakistan, both civilian & military & a lose-lose situation for us. What incentive do you think there is for the Pakistani army to play nice when being hostile gets free goodies in return?

 

[acid rain]

Yes & no. I put forward a possible scenario, not necessarily that no other possibility exists. Taking all your points as a given, you still have to explain why Nawaz Sharif who knows all that you said, would simply put his face on a target if he knows, as he should, that he simply cannot go anywhere without army support. What possible reasoning can be offered up as to why he agreed to the kind of joint statement that he did, unless he is inclined towards sadomasochism ? Do you think that it is logical that he attempts to do something with India knowing fully well that he is waving a red rag (if they are not on board) to the army & getting his backside chewed off by every two bit news reporter & analyst along with handing a stick to his opponents? Politicians and especially successful ones like NS are very good on self-preservation, no one is automatically inclined to commit suicide.

My point remains simple. There are many in Pakistan & enough useful idiots on our side who get taken in by the "empower the civilians" against the army argument by making concessions. That is a foolish policy because either way, it won't deliver results. You make the concessions & the "civilians" may still not be "able" to take on the military & all you are left with is a bare cupboard with nothing to offer in return. It's a win-win situation for the Pakistan, both civilian & military & a lose-lose situation for us. What incentive do you think there is for the Pakistani army to play nice when being hostile gets free goodies in return?

He is hoping to make the best of the given situation..The establishment doesn't necessarily control everything in pakistan...they too have their limitations. Body language of nawaz indicates a lot of pressure that he is under. Assuming he is the pm of pakistan..what could be the pressure on the most important person of a country. ..If it is not external pressure?

Though the army does not control everything..But when it comes to India..then civilians are off limits.

The civilians might attempt to take out the only available bogeyman for the army to retain control on the pakistani masses. When the bogeyman is neutralised by peace or agreement..then the establishment loses its importance.

I guess it's a confusing state of affairs in pakistan and Indian policy makers are well aware of it.

 

[Foxtrot-Bravo]

Hi,

Alright, so if you wanna make fool of yourself, let it be. I know your hormones are raging at this tender age.

Show me one post where I have supported PLMN actions? just show me?

How much do you know about me ? That you started to judge me from one single post, are you serious?

whats your age 18 -19 still in teens kid? Just the other day you got told off from our senior and most respected member for acting too smart, didn't we eh?

As for the Ganja jani. The only reason why i wouldn't tolerate any insult against him or any other person for that matter is because it is our right as a pakistani to grill, skin or mince him. He answerable to us ! not to some Indian. You can criticize him for as much as you want, for all i care (actually he deserves it) but if another non-Pakistani does that, I won't tolerate that . They have no effing right to say !

I will say this again kid, stop judging people from one post. and grow some brains. What i said was not in context of what you thought with your tiny brain.

Stop taking it personally and trying to settle a score with me, you will only end up in making a fool of yourself , like the one, you're doing right now.

Spend some time on forum, gather knowledge of who speaks what, before opening your mouth and spewing shi*

Come on? You took at all at a wrong. Did I really say that you were supporting Ganja there?