The Eight Great Powers of 2017 (Iran Seventh)

[Bad Guy]

Thank you Imported Superpower.

You pretty sure about that?
China too imports to a lot. I can't see most of countries making Directed Energy Weapons (etc. etc. a lot sort of techs) except US, Russia & PRC. Adding over, India's one years intellectual properties are more than Pakistan filed in it's history of 70 years! About 35 times more innovative in per capita. So, let's not compare. Even if India imports something, Pakistan could only dream off! Then, even share of imported stuff (monetary wise) has been depleting in India.

I'm still unable to see Pakistan launching carriers, some of biggest DDGs, launching rockets in space, having big forex reserves, being chosen for working on fusion reactor or a lot.
Not accounting for high end research, manufacturing or production of missile technologies.
Do you know that when China & India produce 92 & 81 out of 94 defined missile technologies, Pakistan is only at 39, it imports everything else. Regarding the rest, it's navigation is still dependent on foreign systems.
Pakistanis spread a similar bullshit on Wikipedia talk page just with argument "Why Pakistan can't be there if India is?". How foreigners responded to them, worth watching.

U are talking military power here, not economic, mention economic in the thread or dunt insult nuclear powers like pakistan and Uk by excludig them from the list, israel ke samajh ati hai but iran??, we can be in tehran in a month if any one else doesnt interfere, the list of most poweful countries on earth must be topped by all the nuclear powers first and

Iraq also had a similar nuclear program as that of Pakistan and honestly admitting that, if Israel etc. wouldn't have interfere, Iraq would be similar to Pakistan today.

A small country with crumbling economy but holding nuclear weapons. Difference is that Iraq hadn't umbrella of countries like US & China. So, it failed.

And which country you are talkin about? UK?
They got lucky for a short time only, now even not relevant on world map. Is there any advantage of British nuclear weapons and delivery systems if they are controlled by USA meanwhile British ships are left without basic weapons like anti ship missiles.
Tomorrow, I was talking with Briton over ISIS implications in Syria. He was talkin as if America is Britain's daddy's servant!

u just cant exclude pakistan which even has mirv tech now,

Who told you have got MIRV? You just tested a stage new stage. Abhi toh shuruat hui hai beta. Heat shields, re entries, MRV and independent navigation & computer system for each warhead. Do you know the reason why countries like China or India couldn't deploy MIRVs even after years of research?
Click on the box!
Let me simplify it for you
Here's the warning for Ababeel.

Clearly, not for MIRVs, at best, it's MRV.

This is how you issue a warning for MIRV tests.

Agni 5

Agni 3, world's most accurate operational IRBM

(depresed trajectory, so putting MIRVs isn't that easy, I don't know how Pakistan will solve this problem with Ababeel missile, flight altitude of at least 500-700kms will be needed which will require more powerful motor, probably an additional stage, overweighing,
no country in world now makes MIRV medium range missiles for this reason, only God knows what's being in Pakistani minds )
India has tested it's re entry vehicles, heat shields and launched multiple satellites many times but even then, I won't call India able to deploy them because in MIRVs, each vehicle has it's own navigation system and computer.

That's why India (even China) couldn't realize deployed MIRVs.
So, My Conclusion:

Pakistan is yet to test a MIRVs, even MRVs or even RVs.
I was wondering if someone can validate entire MIRV tech steps and I was right. This test was just validation of the New Stage and it was written on official Press Release from ISPR,

no matter that desperate people like Zarvan on Pakistani forums claim that they tested MIRVs.

So,
Now
Pakistan has tested and validated a new stage.

What's Next?
Pakistan will have to perform re entry.

Pakistan will have to perform Multiple warheads.
(Two steps publicly demonstrated by India via other sector, and as per NOTAMs, who knows what it has done)

And finally, they will have to provide individual navigation and computer systems to each vehicle (not publicly known about India).

Pakistan has no capability in

1) proper warhead miniaturization

2) Independent research in Solid propellant.

3) No spin stabilized booster during injection burn

4) Inertial altitude correction for injection burn

5) Cannot design nor manufacture all parts of the adapter

6) Cannot manufacture or design gimballed thrust engine in pbcv.

7) Cannot design or manufacture highly efficient gyros nor accelerometers

8) It cannot design re entry vehicle for the RVs to protect the warhead

pakistani Saheen 3 first stage Chinese solid stage also given to North Korea.


With a pathetic R&D budget of $66 billions, you aren't supposed to high end technologies.

makes it own armed drones, its own fighter jets, its own tanks, has a huge domestic arms industry,

As if other countries don't do.
Do you have any idea how many of these are ToTs?
And if you are going to tell me that India doesn't make drones, I will show you a dozen things which Pakistan won't even try to make in upcoming decades and things which actually make significance rather than small drones.
Put aside that, one thing you can be assure yourself off that Pakistani Defence Industry is neither "huge" nor any single Pakistani PSU has ever ranked among top 100 defence suppliers.

im not a fan boy im just talking facts here and talking of military prowess pakistan army is recognizee by all the major players including us and israel as an extremely formidoble force which accomplished in one year in fata which the us military could not achieve in 14 yrs in afghanistan, i wouldnt even start a debate with u if u mentioned economic powers cause we are currently economic minos and thats an accepted fact for the moment atleast,

Israel is a small country with qualitative advantages but it's size is too small to make it in the list. Similar is Iran, what's Iran doing here?

Look mate, I agree that Pakistan is a far more powerful country than Iran & Israel. You can stop here.
Won't put same opinion for Germany, France, India, Japan or Brazil.

But this list was utter bs. Iran & Israel must not be in top 15.

that will probably change in the nest 10 yrs but there its is, minos right now but militarliy we are giants mery bhai and that is a fact no one denies..

Yeh kuchh zyada ho gaya bhai, kyun?
Pakistan can surely be in top 10 but 10 years is too early.
Do you have any idea what the actual giants have? They have done Ph.D. in field from where you are graduating.
PS, I'm just stopping myself from giving direct response because I don't wanna go off topic.

Finally, the economy allows you to invest in research and have cool things. Countries with overwhelming military power which can challenge bigger economies actually are politically very influential (take example of Russia) but under consistent decline.

but putting Iran & Israel? No chance

And come on, world doesn't recognize Pakistan as a great power
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers

A great power has "everything", not only nuclear weapons.

Recent Pakistani missile tests are nothing but this.
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1027113.shtml
(Official media wing of Communist Party of China).
Still, its impossible for Pak to match steps on full spectrum.

No offense intended but I still want to offend intelligent person who has brought Israel and Iran in list. Issey achha Pakistan ko hi rakh dete!

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

8. Israel


This year there’s a new name on our list of the Eight Greats: Israel. A small country in a chaotic part of the world, Israel is a rising power with a growing impact on world affairs. Although 2016 saw the passage of yet another condemnation of Israel at the United Nations, this time in the Security Council thanks to an American decision to abstain rather than veto, overall the Jewish state continues to develop diplomatic, economic and military power and to insert itself into the heart of regional politics.


Three factors are powering Israel’s rise: economic developments, the regional crisis, and diplomatic ingenuity. Looking closely at these tells us something about how power works in the contemporary world.


The economic developments behind Israel’s new stature are partly the result of luck and location, and partly the result of smart choices. As to the luck and location factor, large, off-shore discoveries of natural gas and oil are turning Israel into an energy exporter. Energy self-sufficiency is a boost to Israel’s economy; energy exports boost Israel’s foreign policy clout. In 2016 Erdogan’s Turkey turned on most of its NATO and Western allies; ties with Israel strengthened. Turkey’s Islamist ruler wants gas, and he wants to limit Turkey’s dependence on Russia. Israel is part of the answer.


But beyond luck, Israel’s newfound clout on the world stage comes from the rise of industrial sectors and technologies that good Israeli schools, smart Israeli policies and talented Israeli thinkers and entrepreneurs have built up over many years. In particular, Israel’s decision to support the rise of a domestic cybersecurity and infotech economy has put Israel at the center of the ongoing revolution in military power based on the importance of information control and management to 21st century states. It is not just that private investors all over the world look to invest in Israel’s tech startups; access to Israeli technology (like the technology behind the Iron Dome missile system) matters to more and more countries. It’s not just America; India, China and Russia all want a piece of Israeli tech wizardry.


Other, less glamorous Israeli industries, like the irrigation, desalinization and dry land farming tech that water poor Israel has developed over the decades play their part. Israel’s diplomatic outreach to Africa and its deepening (and increasingly public) relationship with India benefit from Israel’s ability to deliver what people in other countries and governments want.


The second factor in Israel’s appearing on our list is the change in the Middle Eastern balance of power that has transformed Israel from a pariah state to a kingmaker. On the one hand, Syria, one of Israel’s most vociferous enemies and biggest security threats in the old days, has now been broken on the wheel. What has happened in Syria is a terrible human tragedy; but in the cold light of realpolitik the break up of Syria further entrenches Israel’s military supremacy in its immediate neighborhood. Egypt hates Hamas, ISIS and Islamic Jihad as much as Israel does; never has Egyptian-Israeli security cooperation been as close as it is today. Even more consequentially, the rise of Iran and its aspirations to regional hegemony on the one hand and the apparent support for its dreams from the Obama administration made Israel critical to the survival of the Sunni Arabs, including the Gulf states, who loathe Iran and fear a Shia victory in the religious conflict now raging across the Middle East. The Arab Establishment today has two frightening enemies: radical jihadi groups like ISIS on one side, and Iran on the other. Israel has a mix of intelligence and military capabilities that can help keep the regional balance stable; privately and even not so privately many prominent Arab officials today will say that Israeli support is necessary for the survival of Arab independence.


Finally, Israel has managed, uncharacteristically, to advance its global political agenda through effective and even subtle diplomacy. Just as Israel was able to strengthen its relationship with Turkey even as Turkish-U.S. and Turkish EU relations grew distant, Israel has been able to build a realistic and fruitful relationship with Russia despite Russia’s standoff with the west over Ukraine, and Russia’s ties with Iran. The deepening Israel-India relationship has also required patience and skill. Israel’s diplomatic breakthroughs in relations with African countries who have been hostile to Israel since the 1967 war were also built through patient and subtle diplomacy, often working behind the scenes. That behind-the-scenes outreach diplomacy has also helped Israel achieve new levels of contact and collaboration with many Arab countries.


It is not, of course, all sweetness and light. Hezbollah has tens of thousands of missiles aimed at Israel and, thanks to Iran’s victories in Syria, it can now enjoy much more reliable supplies from its patron. The Palestinian Question is as far from a solution as possible, and even as they fragment and squabble among themselves, the Palestinians continue to fight for Israel’s delegitimation in the UN and elsewhere. Israeli politics are as volatile and bitter as ever. The kaleidoscopic nature of Middle East politics means that today’s hero can be tomorrow’s goat. While the breakdown of regional order has so far been a net positive for Israel’s security and power, things could change fast. In ISIS coup in Saudi Arabia, the collapse of Jordan, the fall of the Sisi government in Egypt: it is not hard to come up with scenarios that would challenge Israel in new and dangerous ways.


Former President Obama and his outgoing Secretary of State, John Kerry (neither widely regarded these days as a master of geopolitics), frequently warned Israel that its policies were leaving it isolated and vulnerable. This is to some degree true: European diplomats, American liberals and many American Jews are much less sympathetic to Israel today than they have been in the past. Future Israeli leaders may have to think hard about rebuilding links with American Democrats and American Jews.


But for now at least, Israel can afford to ignore the dismal croaking of the previous American administration. One of a small handful of American allies to be assiduously courted by the Trump campaign, Israel begins 2017 as the keystone of a regional anti-Iran alliance, a most-favored-nation in the White House, and a country that enjoys good relations with all of the world’s major powers bar Iran. Teodor Herzl would be astonished to see what his dream has grown into; David Ben-Gurion would be astounded by the progress his poor and embattled nation has made.

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/01/24/the-eight-great-powers-of-2017

Please tell me you are kidding me. Israel is not a world super power. Not by any stretch of the imagination, they hold no clout or influence in the Middle east and absolutely no ability to have people ally with them. The recent U.N resolution shows that everyone is fed up with their bull.


14-0 many of them super-powers agreed and supported that resolution against Israel, Israel is isolating itself into a cocoon, content to relying on the U.S for everything.


This list is clearly not credible.

 

[Awan68]

You pretty sure about that?
China too imports to a lot. I can't see most of countries making Directed Energy Weapons (etc. etc. a lot sort of techs) except US, Russia & PRC. Adding over, India's one years intellectual properties are more than Pakistan filed in it's history of 70 years! About 35 times more innovative in per capita. So, let's not compare. Even if India imports something, Pakistan could only dream off! Then, even share of imported stuff (monetary wise) has been depleting in India.

I'm still unable to see Pakistan launching carriers, some of biggest DDGs, launching rockets in space, having big forex reserves, being chosen for working on fusion reactor or a lot.
Not accounting for high end research, manufacturing or production of missile technologies.
Do you know that when China & India produce 92 & 81 out of 94 defined missile technologies, Pakistan is only at 39, it imports everything else. Regarding the rest, it's navigation is still dependent on foreign systems.
Pakistanis spread a similar bullshit on Wikipedia talk page just with argument "Why Pakistan can't be there if India is?". How foreigners responded to them, worth watching.

Iraq also had a similar nuclear program as that of Pakistan and honestly admitting that, if Israel etc. wouldn't have interfere, Iraq would be similar to Pakistan today.

A small country with crumbling economy but holding nuclear weapons. Difference is that Iraq hadn't umbrella of countries like US & China. So, it failed.

And which country you are talkin about? UK?
They got lucky for a short time only, now even not relevant on world map. Is there any advantage of British nuclear weapons and delivery systems if they are controlled by USA meanwhile British ships are left without basic weapons like anti ship missiles.
Tomorrow, I was talking with Briton over ISIS implications in Syria. He was talkin as if America is Britain's daddy's servant!

Who told you have got MIRV? You just tested a stage new stage. Abhi toh shuruat hui hai beta. Heat shields, re entries, MRV and independent navigation & computer system for each warhead. Do you know the reason why countries like China or India couldn't deploy MIRVs even after years of research?
Click on the box!
Let me simplify it for you
Here's the warning for Ababeel.

Clearly, not for MIRVs, at best, it's MRV.

This is how you issue a warning for MIRV tests.

Agni 5

Agni 3, world's most accurate operational IRBM

(depresed trajectory, so putting MIRVs isn't that easy, I don't know how Pakistan will solve this problem with Ababeel missile, flight altitude of at least 500-700kms will be needed which will require more powerful motor, probably an additional stage, overweighing,
no country in world now makes MIRV medium range missiles for this reason, only God knows what's being in Pakistani minds )
India has tested it's re entry vehicles, heat shields and launched multiple satellites many times but even then, I won't call India able to deploy them because in MIRVs, each vehicle has it's own navigation system and computer.

That's why India (even China) couldn't realize deployed MIRVs.
So, My Conclusion:

Pakistan is yet to test a MIRVs, even MRVs or even RVs.
I was wondering if someone can validate entire MIRV tech steps and I was right. This test was just validation of the New Stage and it was written on official Press Release from ISPR,

no matter that desperate people like Zarvan on Pakistani forums claim that they tested MIRVs.

So,
Now
Pakistan has tested and validated a new stage.

What's Next?
Pakistan will have to perform re entry.

Pakistan will have to perform Multiple warheads.
(Two steps publicly demonstrated by India via other sector, and as per NOTAMs, who knows what it has done)

And finally, they will have to provide individual navigation and computer systems to each vehicle (not publicly known about India).

Pakistan has no capability in

1) proper warhead miniaturization

2) Independent research in Solid propellant.

3) No spin stabilized booster during injection burn

4) Inertial altitude correction for injection burn

5) Cannot design nor manufacture all parts of the adapter

6) Cannot manufacture or design gimballed thrust engine in pbcv.

7) Cannot design or manufacture highly efficient gyros nor accelerometers

8) It cannot design re entry vehicle for the RVs to protect the warhead

pakistani Saheen 3 first stage Chinese solid stage also given to North Korea.


With a pathetic R&D budget of $66 billions, you aren't supposed to high end technologies.

As if other countries don't do.
Do you have any idea how many of these are ToTs?
And if you are going to tell me that India doesn't make drones, I will show you a dozen things which Pakistan won't even try to make in upcoming decades and things which actually make significance rather than small drones.
Put aside that, one thing you can be assure yourself off that Pakistani Defence Industry is neither "huge" nor any single Pakistani PSU has ever ranked among top 100 defence suppliers.

Israel is a small country with qualitative advantages but it's size is too small to make it in the list. Similar is Iran, what's Iran doing here?

Look mate, I agree that Pakistan is a far more powerful country than Iran & Israel. You can stop here.
Won't put same opinion for Germany, France, India, Japan or Brazil.

But this list was utter bs. Iran & Israel must not be in top 15.
Yeh kuchh zyada ho gaya bhai, kyun?
Pakistan can surely be in top 10 but 10 years is too early.
Do you have any idea what the actual giants have? They have done Ph.D. in field from where you are graduating.
PS, I'm just stopping myself from giving direct response because I don't wanna go off topic.

Finally, the economy allows you to invest in research and have cool things. Countries with overwhelming military power which can challenge bigger economies actually are politically very influential (take example of Russia) but under consistent decline.

but putting Iran & Israel? No chance

And come on, world doesn't recognize Pakistan as a great power
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers

A great power has "everything", not only nuclear weapons.

Recent Pakistani missile tests are nothing but this.
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1027113.shtml
(Official media wing of Communist Party of China).
Still, its impossible for Pak to match steps on full spectrum.

No offense intended but I still want to offend intelligent person who has brought Israel and Iran in list. Issey achha Pakistan ko hi rakh dete!

Agni 3 worlds most accurate, to all of ur bullshit i would just say grow up little black assed indian...

 

[c-dome1]

Pakistan not in list because

1. Pakistan export is smaller
2. Pakistan economy is smaller
3. Pakistan industrial base is smaller
4. Pakistan security situation is weaker compared others
5. Pakistan is not a space power
6. Pakistan is not a blue water navy
7. Pakistan heavily depends on chinese assistance from roads,dams.. u name it.
9. Pakistan is not a major military hardware exporting/importing country
10. Pakistan lacks oil and other resources to sustain in a war
11. Pakistan lacks better infrastructures like rail/dams etc
12. Pakistan already facing energy crisis like load shedding
13. Pakistan foreign reserves are smaller

and list goes on...

It does not mean that one having a Nuclear bomb, so will be a powerful country.

its about power of the army not economy

 

[Bad Guy]

Agni 3 worlds most accurate,

Facts are facts.
No other operational IRBM in world has CEP better than 40 metres.

to all of ur bullshit i would just say grow up little black assed indian...

You can say whatever to feel good but few things don't make you in league.
You have to be everywhere. Do you think if Pakistan gets an ICBM today and if it nukes London, it would be left on map?

India could thwart international pressure not only because of missiles but strategic bombers, huge Navy, air force and trade warfare capabilities. India is largest investor in UK.

Economy,

Country gives military & economic aid (Pakistan receives aid on other hand, how it's powerful? )

Weapons of Mass destruction (Nuclear, Biologist & Chemical)

Giant Conventional forces

Overseas Military Bases

Strong Reconnaissance Capabilities (needs an active space program)

Forex Reserves

Subnational Industrial complex

Military industrial complex (hardly any in Pakistan)

High R&D spending

High Strategic Oil reserves for energy security

big shipping, shipbuilding, aerospace industries etc. etc.

Something new (like lasers)

& a lot to list up.
Even if I agree with you, leave all other aspects and see Pakistan as a "giant in military", it's not even that.
Nowhere near.

 

[HAIDER]

Pakistan not in list because

1. Pakistan export is smaller
2. Pakistan economy is smaller
3. Pakistan industrial base is smaller
4. Pakistan security situation is weaker compared others
5. Pakistan is not a space power
6. Pakistan is not a blue water navy
7. Pakistan heavily depends on chinese assistance from roads,dams.. u name it.
9. Pakistan is not a major military hardware exporting/importing country
10. Pakistan lacks oil and other resources to sustain in a war
11. Pakistan lacks better infrastructures like rail/dams etc
12. Pakistan already facing energy crisis like load shedding
13. Pakistan foreign reserves are smaller

and list goes on...

It does not mean that one having a Nuclear bomb, so will be a powerful country.

Yes, we overcome national issues with emotions ...

 

[Gothic]

iran is a great regional power whoever messes with iran ends up with a visa ban

 

[BetterPakistan]

Economy was given weight here... Japan $4.5T more than double Russia... Iran is overrated here...... Israel have won way too many wars and have a lot of detterents and packs a huge punch for its size, whether I or u like it or not...

1. Problem isn't japan inclusion but a tie between China and Japan. Economically, militarily, population etc, China is quite head and still Chinese economy grew the most in 2016 leaving India behind because of demonetization.

2. I don't think Iran deserves a place here.

3. Israel won only against Palestine in modern era again with the help of USA. Israel GDP is less than Iran. Its 311 billion in 2016 and ranked 35th in the world. Israel military was ranked 14th strongest in 2015 and Pakistan was 11th by Credit Suisse report. Israel also don't deserves a place here.


Eight powers considering economy, military, stability could be:-

1. USA
2. China
3. Japan
4. France
5. UK
6. Germany
7. Russia
8. India (might be)

 

[EpiiC]

1. Problem isn't japan inclusion but a tie between China and Japan. Economically, militarily, population etc, China is quite head and still Chinese economy grew the most in 2016 leaving India behind because of demonetization.

2. I don't think Iran deserves a place here.

3. Israel won only against Palestine in modern era again with the help of USA. Israel GDP is less than Iran. Its 311 billion in 2016 and ranked 35th in the world. Israel military was ranked 14th strongest in 2015 and Pakistan was 11th by Credit Suisse report. Israel also don't deserves a place here.


Eight powers considering economy, military, stability could be:-

1. USA
2. China
3. Japan
4. France
5. UK
6. Germany
7. Russia
8. India (might be)

Japan has much better economy than China who told China has better ecnomoy? GDP Japan is much ahead.... Israel also have better economy than Iran..... Israel is here because it has better economy than both Iran and Pakistan and because of its nukes and air force....

 

[beijingwalker]

Japan has much better economy than China who told China has better ecnomoy? .

Japan's economy is less than half of China's now and the gap is still widening fast with the fact that China just overtook Japan's economy a couple of years ago.

 

[EpiiC]

Japan's economy is less than half of China's now and the gap is still widening fast with the fact that China just overtook Japan's economy a couple of years ago.

Thats not how it works Japans GDP far wealthier.... Qatar has better economy than Pakistan despite Pakistan having numbers.... Israel too has excellent economy.... China Economy hasn't hit $10,000 yet, its at $8300 gdp per nominal Japans is at $35,000 hence their economy is better.. Iran however is overrated here lol....

 

[beijingwalker]

Thats not how it works Japans GDP far wealthier.... Qatar has better economy than Pakistan despite Pakistan having numbers.... Israel too has excellent economy.... China Economy hasn't hit $10,000 yet, its at $8300 gdp per nominal Japans is at $35,000 hence their economy is better.. Iran however is overrated here lol....

Here we are talking about power, not who is per capita wealthier, Chinese Macao is much more wealthier than Japan, it doesn't make Macao more powerful than China.

 

[EpiiC]

Here we are talking about power, not who is per capita wealthier, Chinese Macao is much more wealthier than Japan, it doesn't make Macao more powerful than China.

I know what your saying but how do you explain Germany being higher than India? India has better military but a far worse economy.

 

[beijingwalker]

I know what your saying but how do you explain Germany being higher than India? India has better military but a far worse economy.

I think this ranking is stupid, there is no way that Japan can be tied with China.

 

[Śakra]

iran is a great regional power whoever messes with iran ends up with a visa ban

Americans learned that the hard way.

I think this ranking is stupid, there is no way that Japan can be tied with China.

Japan has Godzilla to protect them. Does china have any similar beast to protect them??