The Cold Start Doctrine Watch.

[Khafee]

I will just say one thing, we will begin offensive operations within 5 hours from the moment the GoI gives a go ahead and our first soldiers will be across IB in max 12 hours.

Like in 2002?

 

[HRK]

Like in 2002?

never underestimate the enemy .... 2002 is almost a 13 years old event which is enough time to develop, practice & operationalise new concepts & strategies, as of now (if am not mistaken) they have achieved ~ 48 hours time for the Operational Deployment of 50K+ troops with heavy aerial support of IAF ... this strength is enough to initiate limited operation in a particular sector .... following is a roughly sketch diagram of Indian Army Exercises near Pakistan Border from the period of 2004-2012

 

[Khafee]

never underestimate the enemy .... 2002 is almost a 13 years old event which is enough time to develop, practice & operationalise new concepts & strategies, as of now (if am not mistaken) they have achieved ~ 48 hours time for the Operational Deployment of 50K+ troops with heavy aerial support of IAF ... this strength is enough to initiate limited operation in a particular sector .... following is a roughly sketch diagram of Indian Army Exercises near Pakistan Border from the period of 2004-2012

View attachment 281405

Not underestimating them. I know exactly what they are capable of, that's my job.

Secondly, I have personally seen how their vising officers behave, when they visit the UAE. Any more than this and people will be screaming for my head, hope you caught my drift.

 

[Hellfire]

never underestimate the enemy .... 2002 is almost a 13 years old event which is enough time to develop, practice & operationalise new concepts & strategies, as of now (if am not mistaken) they have achieved ~ 48 hours time for the Operational Deployment of 50K+ troops with heavy aerial support of IAF ... this strength is enough to initiate limited operation in a particular sector .... following is a roughly sketch diagram of Indian Army Exercises near Pakistan Border from the period of 2004-2012

No to both the underlined parts and bold parts. You are mistaken in assuming the airlift is exclusively IAF. Additionally, you are further mistaken that the airlift or mobilization will be needed to begin offensive operations from depth. On the contrary, the emphasis I have been laying is on the change of holding corps of Indian army to pivot corps. So if you know the concept of Pivot you will be able to appreciate the ability to change role from defensive to offensive roles.

Additionally, the strength required to escalate will be from the existing strength. The bolstering of number of troops in each theatre will be based on as is where is. Mobilized troops will reach their predesignated points and be channelized subsequently. The same has been validated regularly over the past few years. Keeping in mind the changes undertaken by PA to Cold Start concept.

Secondly, I have personally seen how their vising officers behave, when they visit the UAE. Any more than this and people will be screaming for my head, hope you caught my drift.

I have seen all types from South Asian countries. If one was to go by the yardstick of one particular example, then god help us. South Asians are bad at best at the best of times. We all are clubbed together in any foreign country. So .. what ever your innuendo, I am sure your 'professionalism' is not being affected by it. Regards

 

[HRK]

No to both the underlined parts and bold parts. You are mistaken in assuming the airlift is exclusively IAF. Additionally, you are further mistaken that the airlift or mobilization will be needed to begin offensive operations from depth. On the contrary, the emphasis I have been laying is on the change of holding corps of Indian army to pivot corps. So if you know the concept of Pivot you will be able to appreciate the ability to change role from defensive to offensive roles.

plz don't assume things on my behalf I haven't said that IA will only use IAF airlift assets .... what was said earlier simply mean that IAF & IA tried to achieved synergy of operations for a common objective & IAF will support IA at all fronts be it logistics or traditional war theatre operations.

Secondly I am aware that IA & IAF both have either upgraded some of their existing facilities near border or have establish new one to facilitate the purposed IBG or pivot corps ...

 

[notorious_eagle]

The world's pants will be on fire bro .. they will come with tonnes of bricks on us. And your policy of playing the dumb irrational by quoting using of nuke as a pre-empt on everything will ensure more pressure on you than us (although I suspect we will also have to bear a lot of hell).

The public pressure would never allow PA to start negotiating with India as long as Pakistani territory is in the hands of IA. PA has to offer battle, it has no choice. If it does not, it looses the legitimacy among the public that it enjoys today.

While your premise is technically correct, I can further keep on finding a solution to a problem which has no fixed solution. Is any attack plan the perfect attack plan or the right way? You will be right in your way and I in my. A-100s, Smerch, whatever. DF and counter battery fire, effects of assault forces on linear defences whatever. I can start a rejoinder by saying we have CBU-105s in ample supplies to take care of your HAT and LAT as also embedded armor, you will retort with Copperheads (those mothers are still effective) etc etc. Who knows how the battle will play out in one particular sector! But across the frontage? Seriously, if you think numbers in time don't matter, then it is difficult to appreciate the premise of Cold start.

Indeed, i could put a scenario and you could put a counter scenario, but the bottom line is India still to this day does not has the hammer to dominate the Battlefield. Frankly speaking, IA lacks the effective numbers and is neither more agile and mobile than PA. PA's Cantonments are located more closely to the Border, they can mobilize faster. In 2002, Divisions from as far away as Balochistan and KPK were present on the Eastern Border within two weeks. That was 13 years ago, i can assure you PA has invested heavily to further bolster its mobilization and supply routes.

Although, a lot would matter who is lucky that day.

I will just say one thing, we will begin offensive operations within 5 hours from the moment the GoI gives a go ahead and our first soldiers will be across IB in max 12 hours.

That does not sound possible to me.

It means IA will need 8 Division on constant Red Alert throughout the year. Do you know how much resources that would suck out? Even the likes of the US Army could never afford such an endeavour. At best, the US can mobilize the 82nd Airborne Brigade, i repeat a Brigade and they take 24 hours to mobilize. How is India going to to mobilize 8 Divisions within 5 hours? You would probably need a Defence Budget of at least $200 billion to possibly accomplish something like that.

 

[Hellfire]

The public pressure would never allow PA to start negotiating with India as long as Pakistani territory is in the hands of IA. PA has to offer battle, it has no choice. If it does not, it looses the legitimacy among the public that it enjoys today.

Totally agree. We are also aware of your own shift to meet the contingency. But then if we look at an ingress of 25 - 30 kms, it is negligible militarily. Just some pressure on the politics. Even you have to agree that any ingress of this level is hardly something which any public in Pakistan will find as a "defeat" and on the other hand will allow the GoI to project some kind of action to the various contingencies where in the offensive action will be taken. Satisfied Indian public and unruffled Pakistani public and enough nervous countries in the world to bear diplomatic pressure on Pakistan (and India) to begin negotiations.

Indeed, i could put a scenario and you could put a counter scenario, but the bottom line is India still to this day does not has the hammer to dominate the Battlefield. Frankly speaking, IA lacks the effective numbers and is neither more agile and mobile than PA. PA's Cantonments are located more closely to the Border, they can mobilize faster. In 2002, Divisions from as far away as Balochistan and KPK were present on the Eastern Border within two weeks. That was 13 years ago, i can assure you PA has invested heavily to further bolster its mobilization and supply routes.

Although, a lot would matter who is lucky that day.

We can go round and round on the topic. My contention remains, that we have the capability and have been practicing. Well, like PA, we are also trying to ensure we are not rendered insignificant in the Indian scenario. With even Modi ruling out open wars as options, one can imagine the situation. But .... lol ... you are right ..... who is lucky .. will determine the day! And yeah, we have a fair bit of idea of your capability. So, au naturalle that we improve further.

That does not sound possible to me.

Hint: Pivot corps and present dispensation of Divisions of the former defensive corps ... take a call. Have been saying the equipment is pre-staged. And we have practiced our mob from depth.

It means IA will need 8 Division on constant Red Alert throughout the year. Do you know how much resources that would suck out? Even the likes of the US Army could never afford such an endeavour. At best, the US can mobilize the 82nd Airborne Brigade, i repeat a Brigade and they take 24 hours to mobilize. How is India going to to mobilize 8 Divisions within 5 hours? You would probably need a Defence Budget of at least $200 billion to possibly accomplish something like that.

My dear sir, even you know the minima of strengths to be maintained in the units on a particular day. Wont use the figure. We enforce it. Also, like you said, cantonments and unit locations are nearer. Better infrastructure is there now. Things have changed.

Well this is the theoretical aspects. We have worked out the theoretical and the practical applications and tried our scenarios. But then things differ in actual scenario. So .. I really cant comment on what will happen on a particular day in a particular theater but we have worked up our logistics, tested them yearly even in CBRN backdrop, and we feel we can do it.

Rest is speculative.

 

[jeypore]

Nope.. there was no terrorist camp hit. It was an attack to hunt down a world criminal.. not someone's criminal. OBL's excellent hiding ability has nothing to do with how this is relevant to cold start.

What do you mean by "Not someone's Criminal".??????????

 

[Thorough Pro]

Which cold start doctrine? the one that your government and media and your countrymen were denying a few months back?

Then clearly, you do not have the comprehension of the Cold Start Doctrine. I would advise you to read it clearly...........

 

[Hyperion]

8 - 12 nuclear armed AIPed - SSGN's will put the final nail in the coffin of CSD and all the BMD's et al!

 

[SQ8]

What do you mean by "Not someone's Criminal".??????????

Meaning a criminal the world agrees on, not a select group of nations and their vested allies.

 

[jeypore]

Meaning a criminal the world agrees on, not a select group of nations and their vested allies.

Yet he was found in Pakistan!!!

Really OBL Should have been found in Afghanistan then Pakistan. The establishment and Army could hold there nose high in the air today, I do not want to hash old memories of denial here again.......

But What I am really discussing is that the way US took down OBL, that was Cold Start Doctrine concept...

I have read numerous times in this forum about other members opinions regarding what Cold Start means. I have read Cold Start doctrine clearly, and the macro level is very simple. Go into Pakistan and destroy terrorist camp before the Pakistani Army knows about the breach.

 

[SQ8]

Yet he was found in Pakistan!!!

Really OBL Should have been found in Afghanistan then Pakistan. The establishment and Army could hold there nose high in the air today, I do not want to hash old memories of denial here again.......

But What I am really discussing is that the way US took down OBL, that was Cold Start Doctrine concept...

I have read numerous times in this forum about other members opinions regarding what Cold Start means. I have read Cold Start doctrine clearly, and the macro level is very simple. Go into Pakistan and destroy terrorist camp before the Pakistani Army knows about the breach.

https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-strike-into-pakistan-a-simulation-of-sorts.430907/

 

[jeypore]

https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-strike-into-pakistan-a-simulation-of-sorts.430907/

You are responding by "What If Scenarios".

I am just discussing what Indian Military came up with, which they had no capabilities of accomplishing, but The US did and they proved it.....

 

[SQ8]

You are responding by "What If Scenarios".

I am just discussing what Indian Military came up with, which they had no capabilities of accomplishing, but The US did and they proved it.....

Glad you see the irony in the what if.