The Christian Underground In 'Atheist' China

[bolo]

Gambit Quote:



“That just goes to show how little you know of Christian theology.”



I am willing to debate you on your fictitious brainwashing religion any day. I know enough about Christianity to never believe in such non sense. Logic.

It is exactly the case.

Those westerners are quite hypocritical.

If you are a little familiar with Europe history, you still remember how Britain's Henry VIII handled Catholic in the past???

Don't remember that??? How about google it???

You can find so many dirt and inconsistency about Christianity. Yet people are not waking up from this stupidity.

 

[tranquilium]

What's the difference? Do you think there is actually an invisible man in the sky created the universe in 7 days, listens to everyone's conversation, watches everyone's moves, loves his children so much that he created diseases to kill them, etc...BUT he wants you to worship him preferably on Sunday because he needs to rest?

Christianity breeds stupidity. Feel sorry for people who waste their entire life following stories written by camel jockies from 2000 years ago, whose knowledge of the world was 10 miles radius where they live. It's 2013 and people still believe in this? I thought having a higher IQ would prevent one from believing such nonsense.

Well, personally I think creationism is garbage, but religion isn't just about mythology. Religion also has the function of imparting moralities, like treating your neighbor well, be kind, etc.

Now, you have to understand the fundamental difference between religions in China and religion in other places. China, unlike all the other countries in the world, entered absolute monarchy more than two thousand years ago. The direct impact of this is a very strong central government. Basically, the secular government's power eclipses religion organization to the point that religion organization exists as subordinates secular authority.

A great example is that in Europe, the secular head is often crowned by the religious head. In contrast, in China, the religious head have to be recognized and sanctioned by the secular head. Because of this, religions in China are often re-designed from their original form to fit the Chinese need. As a result, the religion is less about believing in God/gods and more about imparting morality.

 

[bolo]

Well, personally I think creationism is garbage, but religion isn't just about mythology. Religion also has the function of imparting moralities, like treating your neighbor well, be kind, etc.

Now, you have to understand the fundamental difference between religions in China and religion in other places. China, unlike all the other countries in the world, entered absolute monarchy more than two thousand years ago. The direct impact of this is a very strong central government. Basically, the secular government's power eclipses religion organization to the point that religion organization exists as subordinates secular authority.

A great example is that in Europe, the secular head is often crowned by the religious head. In contrast, in China, the religious head have to be recognized and sanctioned by the secular head. Because of this, religions in China are often re-designed from their original form to fit the Chinese need. As a result, the religion is less about believing in God/gods and more about imparting morality.

I get what you're saying, but the only thing I have is that why does one need to believe in a religion in order to have morals? The typical argument by religious people is that the church helps needy people, etc... Well so do other non religious charities. And you know what, if you go volunteer like I do, you're helping people, but yet not affiliated with any religion.

 

[tranquilium]

I get what you're saying, but the only thing I have is that why does one need to believe in a religion in order to have morals? The typical argument by religious people is that the church helps needy people, etc... Well so do other non religious charities. And you know what, if you go volunteer like I do, you're helping people, but yet not affiliated with any religion.

No, you don't have to believe in any religion to have morals. The thing is, religion exists. Either you find a way deal with it and let it to be a positive influence on the society or let it run rampart and create problems. The Chinese figured out long ago that it is much better to steer the river to the direct you want rather than flat out blocking it. Remember 堵不如疏.

 

[Juice]

Actually the Chinese have got one thing right.! The religious insititutions in a country must answer to the head of a religion in that country. Not having contact with head outside the country is a wise move that prevent social unrest.

Even Henry VIII realized this.

Well, personally I think creationism is garbage, but religion isn't just about mythology. Religion also has the function of imparting moralities, like treating your neighbor well, be kind, etc.

Now, you have to understand the fundamental difference between religions in China and religion in other places. China, unlike all the other countries in the world, entered absolute monarchy more than two thousand years ago. The direct impact of this is a very strong central government. Basically, the secular government's power eclipses religion organization to the point that religion organization exists as subordinates secular authority.

A great example is that in Europe, the secular head is often crowned by the religious head. In contrast, in China, the religious head have to be recognized and sanctioned by the secular head. Because of this, religions in China are often re-designed from their original form to fit the Chinese need. As a result, the religion is less about believing in God/gods and more about imparting morality.

Unlike other countries? The Roman Emperor was an absolute monarch, Pharoh, etc.

 

[cirr]

Underground？

I know many，including quite a few friends，who go to the Church every Sunday and have noodles together。

Bible study gatherings are also held on a regular basis，when church members exchange personal experiences with God。

 

[tranquilium]

Even Henry VIII realized this.


Unlike other countries? The Roman Emperor was an absolute monarch, Pharoh, etc.

Not really. Power of Roman Empire is hold in the hands of powerful political families, who in turn control senators and Roman legions, because of this, the Roman legions are extremely prone to revolts and coups. They go through emperors like it is going out of style. Pharaoh's power is countered by the powerful clergies caste in Egypt. These clergies can name governor for the temple land completely independent of the Pharaoh.

The key social advancement required by true absolute monarchy (which is a precursor to modern political systems) is appearance of general education. Knowledge is power. In the case of Roman Emperors, Egyptian Pharaohs, European Kings and Islamic Caliphs, knowledge and education is typically reserved for certain class of people, be it clergy or nobility. The fact is, even if you want to give political power to commoners back in ancient times, they simply lack the knowledge and ability to use it.

Hence no matter how the system and cultures changes, the head ruler has no alternative but to rely on nobles or clergies to run the country. Due to this monopoly, nobles and clergies are able to continuous mass political power, thus a true absolute monarchy is not possible.

The Chinese Emperors, on the other hand, managed to aggressively push general education to the commoners, so by the middle-late part of the Tang dynasty, traditional nobles have all but disappeared in China.

 

[ephone]

UK is still doing the same as Henry VIII did before: Cut the tie with the Catholics pope.

The way of thinking is exactly the same as what CCP has done: basically, it tells the pope to get your fxxk dirty hands off my internal matters.

Gambit Quote:



“That just goes to show how little you know of Christian theology.”



I am willing to debate you on your fictitious brainwashing religion any day. I know enough about Christianity to never believe in such non sense. Logic.



You can find so many dirt and inconsistency about Christianity. Yet people are not waking up from this stupidity.

UK ruled india for quite some time. I thought you at least should have learnt what Henry VIII did and how he told the catholics pope to fxxk off.

India is facing a lot of problems . Allowing foreign religion head to speak to the local head creates a lot of confusion and social unrest. Money is poured in for conversions , resulting in social problems in such areas. India should do the same albeit in a sensible manner.

 

[bolo]

疏

UK is still doing the same as Henry VIII did before: Cut the tie with the Catholics pope.

The way of thinking is exactly the same as what CCP has done: basically, it tells the pope to get your fxxk dirty hands off my internal matters.



UK ruled india for quite some time. I thought you at least should have learnt what Henry VIII did and how he told the catholics pope to fxxk off.

Maybe he did tell the Catholics to F off, maybe he didn't but it doesnt matter. He still went to create his own Anglican Church. Cathlics, Christians, or whatever they want to call themselves believe in the same stuff. One worships the mother, the other the son. Jews believe in old testament and do not believe in Jesus, rather believe in the invisbile God.

Same shit, different color. Better to "dig a river and divert this shit" to the south of China. Better in the long run for China and its people. I know some really messed up Chinese Christians so I stay the fxxk away from that religion.

 

[ephone]

You seem to not understand the issue.

The gist of the issue is not related to religion but power struggle.

In Chinese saying, one mountain cannot hold two tigers.

Henry VIII will not tolerate his power to be shared by another potential master, a.k.a., the catholics pope. So he created his own church and he now is the top dog. The catholics pope can eat dust.

If you still think the China issue related to that is still religious issue, you are simply too naive. CCP won't share its power, as simple as that. Do you see CCP now still crush Buddism, Taoism and etc??? Apparently not. However, CCP indeed crushes certain Christian and Muslim factions. For what???
Simply because certain idiots from those factions could not see the matter clear enough and want to grab power from CCP. The same applies to FLG idiots.

Maybe he did tell the Catholics to F off, maybe he didn't but it doesnt matter. He still went to create his own Anglican Church. Cathlics, Christians, or whatever they want to call themselves believe in the same stuff. One worships the mother, the other the son. Jews believe in old testament and do not believe in Jesus, rather believe in the invisbile God.

Same shit, different color. Better to "dig a river and divert this shit" to the south of China. Better in the long run for China and its people. I know some really messed up Chinese Christians so I stay the fxxk away from that religion.

 

[Wholegrain]

You seem to not understand the issue.

The gist of the issue is not related to religion but power struggle.

In Chinese saying, one mountain cannot hold two tigers.

Henry VIII will not tolerate his power to be shared by another potential master, a.k.a., the catholics pope. So he created his own church and he now is the top dog. The catholics pope can eat dust.

If you still think the China issue related to that is still religious issue, you are simply too naive. CCP won't share its power, as simple as that. Do you see CCP now still crush Buddism, Taoism and etc??? Apparently not. However, CCP indeed crushes certain Christian and Muslim factions. For what???
Simply because certain idiots from those factions could not see the matter clear enough and want to grab power from CCP. The same applies to FLG idiots.

No, idiot, all Muslim sects in China are legal and tolerated by the government- Jahriyya Sufism, Qadriyya Sufism, Khufiyya Sufism, Gedimu Sunni Islam, Yihewani (Ikhwan), and even Salafiyya. They all are part of the China Islamic Association and have representatives in the CCP.

Some Sufi Islamic sects are allowed tremendous power and prestige by the CCP, this Sufi leader was allowed to establish a virtual religious state in Ningxia, with a massive network of Mosques and religious schools by the CCP. He even heard Bin Laden and other religious fundamentalists speak in person, and the CCP is fully aware of it. He is tolerated because the agrement is ghat political power is left in the hands of the CCP, while religious power is left to him.

Faith flourishes in an arid wasteland | South China Morning Post

What is outlawed is the political, militant terrorist groups like ETIM (East Turkestan Islamic Movement). ETIM is not a religious sect- its a political-militant organization, it doesn't espouse a particular religious movement, faction, or sect within Islam.

It is you who does not understand the issue.

India is facing a lot of problems . Allowing foreign religion head to speak to the local head creates a lot of confusion and social unrest. Money is poured in for conversions , resulting in social problems in such areas. India should do the same albeit in a sensible manner.

The between India and other nations is, that the Catholic Church allows an autonomous Church with its own archbishop and liturgical rite, seperate from the Latin rite.

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

George Alencherry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many of these autonomous Catholic Churches have their own liturgical rite and Patriarch, for example, the Coptic Catholic Church uses the Egyptian Coptic language instead of Latin in their liturgy, while the Ethiopian Catholic Church uses the Ethiopic Geez language instead of Latin, and they have their own Patriarch (a sort of mini-pope) who makes the important decisions, and that Patriarch is based in their respective country. The Ethiopian Catholic Patriarch is based in Ethiopia and the Coptic Catholic Patriarch is in Egypt and they run their Churches autonomously, unlike the main Roman Catholic Church run direcrly by the Pope.

Eastern Catholic Churches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

No, idiot, all Muslim sects in China are legal and tolerated by the government- Jahriyya Sufism, Qadriyya Sufism, Khufiyya Sufism, Gedimu Sunni Islam, Yihewani (Ikhwan), and even Salafiyya. They all are part of the China Islamic Association and have representatives in the CCP.

Some Sufi Islamic sects are allowed tremendous power and prestige by the CCP, this Sufi leader was allowed to establish a virtual religious state in Ningxia, with a massive network of Mosques and religious schools by the CCP. He even heard Bin Laden and other religious fundamentalists speak in person, and the CCP is fully aware of it. He is tolerated because the agrement is ghat political power is left in the hands of the CCP, while religious power is left to him.

Faith flourishes in an arid wasteland | South China Morning Post

What is outlawed is the political, militant terrorist groups like ETIM (East Turkestan Islamic Movement). ETIM is not a religious sect- its a political-militant organization, it doesn't espouse a particular religious movement, faction, or sect within Islam.

It is you who does not understand the issue.



The between India and other nations is, that the Catholic Church allows an autonomous Church with its own archbishop and liturgical rite, seperate from the Latin rite.

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

George Alencherry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many of these autonomous Catholic Churches have their own liturgical rite and Patriarch, for example, the Coptic Catholic Church uses the Egyptian Coptic language instead of Latin in their liturgy, while the Ethiopian Catholic Church uses the Ethiopic Geez language instead of Latin, and they have their own Patriarch (a sort of mini-pope) who makes the important decisions, and that Patriarch is based in their respective country. The Ethiopian Catholic Patriarch is based in Ethiopia and the Coptic Catholic Patriarch is in Egypt and they run their Churches autonomously, unlike the main Roman Catholic Church run direcrly by the Pope.

Eastern Catholic Churches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

THe coptic church follows separate set of rules. They even celebrate christmas on a another day. Moreover coptics, dont have a zealous to convert others with money.
These Indian churches you mentioned are not independent of Vatican. They reveive instructions from them. Only some customs are followed in accordance with local traditions. THe protestants are another completely different case. These churches receive lotta money from vatican.

 

[Wholegrain]

THe coptic church follows separate set of rules. They even celebrate christmas on a another day. Moreover coptics, dont have a zealous to convert others with money.
These Indian churches you mentioned are not independent of Vatican. They reveive instructions from them. Only some customs are followed in accordance with local traditions. THe protestants are another completely different case. These churches receive lotta money from vatican.

The Eastern Catholic Churches and Orthodox Churches are two separate things.

Coptic Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethiopian Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See the difference?

Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jacobite Syrian Christian Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a full list here.

List of Catholic rites and churches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What happened was, that members of those Eastern Orthodox Churches (Coptic, Ethiopian, and Jacobite Syrians in India) converted to Catholicism, but were allowed to keep their own Patriarch, their own autonomous Church, liturgical rites, and customs (like no clerical celibacy).

 

[ephone]

I do not need see your garbage. Get the hell out of my comments.

No, idiot, all Muslim sects in China are legal and tolerated by the government- Jahriyya Sufism, Qadriyya Sufism, Khufiyya Sufism, Gedimu Sunni Islam, Yihewani (Ikhwan), and even Salafiyya. They all are part of the China Islamic Association and have representatives in the CCP.

Some Sufi Islamic sects are allowed tremendous power and prestige by the CCP, this Sufi leader was allowed to establish a virtual religious state in Ningxia, with a massive network of Mosques and religious schools by the CCP. He even heard Bin Laden and other religious fundamentalists speak in person, and the CCP is fully aware of it. He is tolerated because the agrement is ghat political power is left in the hands of the CCP, while religious power is left to him.

Faith flourishes in an arid wasteland | South China Morning Post

What is outlawed is the political, militant terrorist groups like ETIM (East Turkestan Islamic Movement). ETIM is not a religious sect- its a political-militant organization, it doesn't espouse a particular religious movement, faction, or sect within Islam.

It is you who does not understand the issue.



The between India and other nations is, that the Catholic Church allows an autonomous Church with its own archbishop and liturgical rite, seperate from the Latin rite.

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

George Alencherry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many of these autonomous Catholic Churches have their own liturgical rite and Patriarch, for example, the Coptic Catholic Church uses the Egyptian Coptic language instead of Latin in their liturgy, while the Ethiopian Catholic Church uses the Ethiopic Geez language instead of Latin, and they have their own Patriarch (a sort of mini-pope) who makes the important decisions, and that Patriarch is based in their respective country. The Ethiopian Catholic Patriarch is based in Ethiopia and the Coptic Catholic Patriarch is in Egypt and they run their Churches autonomously, unlike the main Roman Catholic Church run direcrly by the Pope.

Eastern Catholic Churches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Desertfalcon]

Actually the Chinese have got one thing right.! The religious insititutions in a country must answer to the head of a religion in that country. Not having contact with head outside the country is a wise move that prevent social unrest.

And would prohibit the practice of my faith, among others.

Well, personally I think creationism is garbage, but religion isn't just about mythology. Religion also has the function of imparting moralities, like treating your neighbor well, be kind, etc.

Now, you have to understand the fundamental difference between religions in China and religion in other places. China, unlike all the other countries in the world, entered absolute monarchy more than two thousand years ago. The direct impact of this is a very strong central government. Basically, the secular government's power eclipses religion organization to the point that religion organization exists as subordinates secular authority.

A great example is that in Europe, the secular head is often crowned by the religious head. In contrast, in China, the religious head have to be recognized and sanctioned by the secular head. Because of this, religions in China are often re-designed from their original form to fit the Chinese need. As a result, the religion is less about believing in God/gods and more about imparting morality.

And being subservient to State authority. No thanks.