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The Battle for Bajaur - PA seizes control

... Privately few have much good to say about the West either. Anti-American sentiment is widespread. Many - both on the front line and at senior levels - doubt that al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11. Instead the officers and men interviewed by The Observer see their fight as a necessary struggle to purge their own nation of an internal threat. 'It is our war, not anyone else's,' said Colonel Nauman.

however, i feel this is disturbing IMO. i have mentioned in other posts the officers inducted in Zia's time are now vying for senior-level posts in the PA having a conservative, islamist and anti-american world view. PA always had a "moderate, western culture base" which has been radically destroyed by Gen. Zia.
 
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I dont agree with you Sir Fatman.

Gen Zia regime defeated super power and saved pakistan identity as islamic democratic country.

We can only servive if we protect our islamic identity ,those who like western life style they have option to move in western countries.

Pakistan was build in the name of Islam and will remain Islamic welfare democratic country.:pakistan:

you are entitled to your opinion, however, being a ex-army officer having served in that era and seen many exceptional young officers leave the PA because of what Gen. Zia was trying to institute because he wanted to stay in power. and what was democratic about his rule. pls give me one example.

having a western life style dosnt mean one cannot be a good muslim and preserve one's identity at the same time. its all about assimilation in the global world.
 
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May be few officers left army during Zia era but he strengthen our armed forces with latest equipments and completed nuke plan in 1983 which was tested in 1998.
Yes he changed the direction of pakistan from western democracy to islamic democracy,he established shariat courts ,Zakat system ,islamic banking system etc.

Can you grow mango in gilgit no it is not possible you need suitable environment.
Islamic principles can only be practiced properly is islamic conducive environment under shariat law,that is reason we demanded pakistan from britishers .
All rights of muslims can not be protected in non muslim country.

good luck to you and your blinkered view of the world!
 
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... Privately few have much good to say about the West either. Anti-American sentiment is widespread. Many - both on the front line and at senior levels - doubt that al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11. Instead the officers and men interviewed by The Observer see their fight as a necessary struggle to purge their own nation of an internal threat. 'It is our war, not anyone else's,' said Colonel Nauman.

however, i feel this is disturbing IMO. i have mentioned in other posts the officers inducted in Zia's time are now vying for senior-level posts in the PA having a conservative, islamist and anti-american world view. PA always had a "moderate, western culture base" which has been radically destroyed by Gen. Zia.

Fatman shaib,

I am not concerned about the presence of anti-American and anti-India sentiment in the ranks of the military, especially the latter. Quite few reports have now mentioned that interviews with most officers have indicated that there is widespread recognition of the threat the insurgency poses to Pakistan - this is most important. Many of these officers also believe that it is being supported by other countries (namely India, and perhaps the US).

I actually think this is a positive factor. Our military has been indoctrinated and trained to face our foe in the East and India's history of hostility against Pakistan is there for all to see. To attach her to the battle in the West is actually a pretty good way to keep the troops motivated and hungry for success. If it turns out that India/US are not involved in supporting this insurgency, the fight will be that much easier. If it turns out the India is involved, then we will atleast be prepared for it.

Again, what is most important is recognizing that the militants are a threat, and eliminating that threat.
 
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AM - there has never been any problems in getting the army motivated to confront the indians or for that matter anyone in my opinion, but when u deliberately try to change the culture of the most organised and efficient institution in your country because you want to perpetuate your rule, there is something seriously wrong with that. for 11 years General Staff Officers who dreamed of commanding this army did not get a chance. what it boils down to is 40 years of service going down the drain. i am sorry u may not really understand this because u did not wear the khakis.

our officers want to be anti-american or anti-west but we love their weapons and FMS aid. it dosnt jive.
 
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AM - there has never been any problems in getting the army motivated to confront the indians or for that matter anyone in my opinion, but when u deliberately try to change the culture of the most organised and efficient institution in your country because you want to perpetuate your rule, there is something seriously wrong with that. for 11 years General Staff Officers who dreamed of commanding this army did not get a chance. what it boils down to is 40 years of service going down the drain. i am sorry u may not really understand this because u did not wear the khakis.

our officers want to be anti-american or anti-west but we love their weapons and FMS aid. it dosnt jive.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am not questioning the harm of Zia's polices - with which I vehemently disagree. I am merely commenting on the point that making a connection between the militancy and India and/or US is not necessarily a negative factor, provided eliminating the insurgency continues to be the focus and goal.

Also, I do not think that not wearing the Khaki makes me unable to recognize the harm Zia caused. At its root what you point out is discrimination - on the basis of ideology. It could be discrimination on the basis of race, religion or politics, and one doesn't have to be in the army to experience it, to understand it or condemn it.

I could be wrong, but I think that the 'anti-American' sentiment is different from the 'anti-Indian' sentiment. There is anti-American sentiment because of its policies, and perhaps because its policies in Afghanistan and towards Pakistan are viewed critically. I think the officers just want Pakistan to be left alone to deal with this threat the way we deem fit, while the US is welcome to provide equipment and support. It is the impression of 'meddling' and 'coercion' that riles people.
 
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Also, I do not think that not wearing the Khaki makes me unable to recognize the harm Zia caused. At its root what you point out is discrimination - on the basis of ideology. It could be discrimination on the basis of race, religion or politics, and one doesn't have to be in the army to experience it, to understand it or condemn it.

one of the reasons many officers left including me.
 
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Also, I do not think that not wearing the Khaki makes me unable to recognize the harm Zia caused. At its root what you point out is discrimination - on the basis of ideology. It could be discrimination on the basis of race, religion or politics, and one doesn't have to be in the army to experience it, to understand it or condemn it.

one of the reasons many officers left including me.

And my sympathies for what must have been a great disappointment, and dashing of dreams.
 
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Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am not questioning the harm of Zia's polices - with which I vehemently disagree. I am merely commenting on the point that making a connection between the militancy and India and/or US is not necessarily a negative factor, provided eliminating the insurgency continues to be the focus and goal.

that is there believe me!


Also, I do not think that not wearing the Khaki makes me unable to recognize the harm Zia caused. At its root what you point out is discrimination - on the basis of ideology. It could be discrimination on the basis of race, religion or politics, and one doesn't have to be in the army to experience it, to understand it or condemn it.

fair enough!

I could be wrong, but I think that the 'anti-American' sentiment is different from the 'anti-Indian' sentiment. There is anti-American sentiment because of its policies, and perhaps because its policies in Afghanistan and towards the US are viewed critically. I think the officers just want Pakistan to be left alone to deal with this threat the way we deem fit, while the US is welcome to provide equipment and support. It is the impression of 'meddling' and 'coercion' that riles people.

could be but i think there is more to this anti-americanism. these officers are coming from middle-class backgrounds (like me) where their family culture is conservative, islamist and seeped in the anti-american sentiment prevailing in the country. when u join the army, they make you leave all these feelings / sentiments behind as they teach you a culture where the army is the mother and the father and you will die for it. no politics of sunni or shia, no baradarism.(Zia made sure only arians got promoted to key posts).

as far as coercion and meddling goes we allow it unfortunately.
 
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These comments are disturbing to me-

"Many - both on the front line and at senior levels - doubt that al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11."

How can this belief exist among your officers? There may be reasons to oppose American policies but if officers, to include senior levels, ground their principles upon the above then there exists a MASSIVE disconnect in cognitive perception that explains this comment by General Khan-

"When it comes to operations in the tribal areas ... sometimes our agendas coincide, sometimes they do not,"

Gee whiz, do you think?

If so, the following prescription can't be helpful-

"I actually think this is a positive factor. Our military has been indoctrinated and trained to face our foe in the East and India's history of hostility against Pakistan is there for all to see. To attach her to the battle in the West is actually a pretty good way to keep the troops motivated and hungry for success. If it turns out that India/US are not involved in supporting this insurgency, the fight will be that much easier."

I wonder, actually, how pervasive is the belief among your officers and troops that al Qaeda isn't responsible for 9/11 and, if not, whom committed such an act? What narrative are they being sold and by whom and is the United States government hearing the same? I rather doubt your political and military leaders would suggest as much to our officials. Would they suggest something different in private to your troops?

If so, it's a violation of the basic trust and confidence that bonds a soldier's allegiance to the state.
 
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These comments are disturbing to me-

"Many - both on the front line and at senior levels - doubt that al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11."

How can this belief exist among your officers? There may be reasons to oppose American policies but if officers, to include senior levels, ground their principles upon the above then there exists a MASSIVE disconnect in cognitive perception that explains this comment by General Khan-

"When it comes to operations in the tribal areas ... sometimes our agendas coincide, sometimes they do not,"

Gee whiz, do you think?

If so, the following prescription can't be helpful-

"I actually think this is a positive factor. Our military has been indoctrinated and trained to face our foe in the East and India's history of hostility against Pakistan is there for all to see. To attach her to the battle in the West is actually a pretty good way to keep the troops motivated and hungry for success. If it turns out that India/US are not involved in supporting this insurgency, the fight will be that much easier."

I wonder, actually, how pervasive is the belief among your officers and troops that al Qaeda isn't responsible for 9/11 and, if not, whom committed such an act? What narrative are they being sold and by whom and is the United States government hearing the same? I rather doubt your political and military leaders would suggest as much to our officials. Would they suggest something different in private to your troops?

If so, it's a violation of the basic trust and confidence that bonds a soldier's allegiance to the state.

I don't know if you recall, but when I first joined the WAB I had an exchange with Jad333 on the issue of support in Pakistan for OBL. I mentioned at the time that I have had heated exchanges with my younger brother, who went through high school under the British curriculum (the A and O-levels), was liberal in his outlook, dated girls much to my parents chagrin, and hung out with his friend not that differently from a teen in the US.

Our arguments were over his refusal to accept that 911 was anything but a Israeli/CIA conspiracy, and that OBL was just a scapegoat. This from someone attending college and his liberal background - quite shocking for me really. You see similar views reflected across Pakistani society, and across the Muslim world. There is so much 'pseudo scholarship' and so many conspiracy theories, in the West alone, that they are lapped up by those who already distrust the US.

There is definitely a huge gap in perceptions and there is an enormous amount of historical distrust towards the US in the Muslim world. You factor in the perceptions of 'media vilification of Muslims', the cartoon controversies, profiling etc., and this starts to seem like some sort of very 'anti-Muslim movement' to those in the Islamic world, especially since these sentiments are not based on careful research, but inflammatory media snippets from local media.

The Iraq invasion was pretty much a final nail in the coffin. The common man does not care for the detailed arguments and semantics behind Iraq, or the rest of it - for them it started with WMD's and no WMD's were found.

Case closed -US perfidy and 'evil designs' exposed. Now superimpose that sentiment anywhere else the US is involved, especially in a "Muslim nation".

I realize that you disagree with me on this count, but the soundness and veracity of or arguments aside, would the perception that the US has deliberately strengthened anti-Pakistan forces in Afghanistan (read criminals and warlords of the NA - from the Pakistani perspective) not in fact strengthen the belief that the US did not have the best of intentions in Afghanistan, and by association Pakistan? And therefore, moving backwards, could that not put in doubt, for some, the entire premise the invasion of Afghanistan was based on?

I do not think such sentiment can be reversed any time soon, and it is for that reason that I find it acceptable. So long as that sentiment is channeled towards the militants, and our campaign against them does not let up, the objectives of both sides are being addressed. I do think that more can be done to make the Pakistani establishment believe they are not being manipulated or compromised, and on that count I thought that B Rubin's analysis pointed out important issues that could be addressed to start reducing distrust, and ensuring that our 'agenda's coincide' more often than not.
 
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I do recall the discussion with JAD_333. It's not a profound leap of logic in that context to imagine officers reaching the same conclusions if there's a pre-disposition. Evidently, though, to reach that state of mind, America's accumulated perceived sins were already onerous among your officer class prior to 9/11, much less OIF.

"I do not think such sentiment can be reversed any time soon, and it is for that reason that I find it acceptable. So long as that sentiment is channeled towards the militants, and our campaign against them does not let up, the objectives of both sides are being addressed."

You may be correct for the near-term but the sentiment only channels actions at the militants through the guise of "minions" of RAW and CIA duplicity. The objectives of both will be addressed, perhaps, but only in fits and starts and ultimately, to the disillusion of your officer class as events unfold that counter their perceived narrative.

A strong pashtu presence in next fall's elections is critical.
 
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